fraud and he's a party to that so here's a guy who given unlimited credit at zero percent and is exempt from the rule of law still can't seem to make money for shareholders which is that. hello and welcome to cross talk where all things considered i'm peter lavelle to trump administration's attempts to impose regime change on venezuela appear to be faltering the self-proclaimed interim president though how to gain much traction

this may this may explain the administration's escalating rhetoric after all we are told the military option is still on the table. cross talking venezuela i'm joined by my guest down to bar in new york he's an anti-war activists and host of a daily radio program in geneva we have desires he is a professor of law at geneva school of diplomacy and a former u.n. independent expert on the promotion of democratic and equitable international order and in ottawa we cross to isaac no one survived the he is a venezuelan canadian professor at the university of ottawa all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciated let me go to alfred first in geneva and congratulate him on his report that he presented to the united nations about it was very enlightening i wish more people would read it particularly in the media and maybe in the american political

class why does the united states feel that it's incumbent upon itself to fix the problems of venezuela no one denies venezuela has a lot of problems but why should an outside power like the united states that has a very checkered and i'm being very polite here checkered history and meddling in latin america so i mean why is the trump administration and of all people elliott abrams appointed to fix venezuela. well you know stephen cancer's book overthrow and william blow bloom's book. killing hope it is an american tradition to tell latin america to apply what we call the monro doctrine and we have a long history of pig send the iran contra affair nicaragua panama grenada haiti etc we have been changing

governments all the time participating in the coup against the so lie in on two or s. so this is nothing new i made the united states is a hedge i'm on and does like to deal with latin america as collegeville of course venezuela is after all an incredibly rich country with the largest oil reserves with enormous gold reserves and by outside reserves and. coltan reserves so. it's a bonanza ok. so i'll throw it out for it so it's so it's just an asset play let me go to isaac here in ottawa i think it is. and it's very open unlike you know other of force regime change in the last two decades or so this is ministration is very open that it really wants to overthrow the government impose its own guy

somebody that was of hardly known even within the country how do you think this forced imposed regime change is going because over the weekend it looked like it looked like a farce over the weekend go ahead it in ottawa where i beat your while this is not that you is trying to solve it is about that in a square and society saying enough is enough and now it's in our own region and now it's a no track record and not these are not what i grew up ration and now you say it's a no for shortages and now he's and now you have a huge majority of this without saying that see we want change and we want change you want to go peacefully we want change in order to have a street election and we want change because these people these routine cannot last any more any longer than see and what is happening here is that you have actually

a. true. reading this situation because what he saw happening here you are not only the us you have most of. you how can i say we won't change the only leverage what right does canada have to say about the fate of venezuela me or whatever i don't know what it is now we have to have demands ok don i mean let me let me hear what i want for equal time for everyone i told that before we started the recording here let's go to dan right now don. how is this a regime change playing out. because it seems to me because of the fiasco over the weekend on the bridge which was filmed by so many people and it was quite obvious who incited the violence there but then you have within the same news cycle the rhetoric is increased the you know they always say that you know all options are on the table here is this something that do you think should happen could happen and

certainly it shouldn't and why should they listen to someone that is. under the constitution of venezuela is a nobody still ok you know it does trump want to risk his reelection fortunes on and on another failed regime change expedition that we saw all through the middle east for the last two decades go ahead don well i'll go into the details of this later but there are billions of assets of venezuela's that are in litigation in u.s. courts with a variety of multinational corporations attempting to seize them and having the u.s. recognize someone under their control as president means that he can walk into the court basically and stipulate to whatever the other side wants and release those assets to these multinational corporations i'll get to that more well later i want to speak about though the rhetoric with chris we have marco rubio holding up a picture of a murdered gadhafi. if you think about it libya play pretty much the same role that

africa that venezuela was played in latin america for the last twenty years helping to organize it helping to fund its own independence and build you know beautiful defense of their sovereignty standing up together etc and gadhafi that was his crime but what gaddafi did when he took off the power of sixty nine was say one of the poorest countries in the world and left it a middle class clown true where everyone there own their own homes people there were comfortable free education free healthcare etc those are not people that go out into the street and yet we see a picture of him held up by rubio as a threat to me now what rubio needs to know is that there are also people that are like him greedy little money grabbing people who go after other people's assets to steal them and there are photographs of their fate also the picture of mosul leni i think is something that someone needs to put a logo ok so ok and show him how he treats people yeah you know and i think marco

rubio really embarrassed himself with that but that. comes because of hubris here let me go back to the geneva alfred let's talk about the opposition here is it still is fractious is it was before because we had and i said talk about elections well it seems that the opposition is boycotting any kind of dialogue the government has asked for. and met with silence here and in the last election they boycotted so what i mean what kind of democratic credentials does the opposition have if they don't want to engage in talks or even participate in an election go ahead in geneva not very believable. when i was in then as well in the lambert december two thousand and seventeen i spoke with the members of the national assembly of the opposition off a comment of the chamber of commerce etc some while feeling that they have

their conception of what venezuela is supposed to be and that socialism is simply not part of it and therefore they are not interested in genuine dialogue as you know the former spanish. prime minister oh yes and we see you know he has not had or conducted for two years or years yep or negotiation face to face of the opposition together with the government when there were three or ambassador of supporting the opposition three ambassadors of latin american supporting the government in any event on the sixth of february two thousand aiding there was a reasonable compromise i published. our agreement in my report to the you when our human rights council and what happened is that the phone rang and who you are what has been the order not the enemy so don't sign so he didn't say i know

i have. the more it you know all mechanism proposed by mexico and europe way although it's a lovely idea and i very much believe in mediation it takes two to tango or take as if it can get i think igs exactly here let me let me i want to go i want to go back to isaac here because it's two against one and i want to be fair here i think it's a venezuelan yourself i mean would you like to see him in an american led military intervention into your country go ahead and are not what i would like to see is a peaceful piece of fortunately we have a regime that is not ready to accept we have a creamy not redeemed venezuela what you're describing as a socialist who show this yes it's not the real what we have here is an article general trafficking we have people trafficking we call in the south where you talk about and all these issues now then this will end kompany such as they have in

the way it's because china has decided to confiscate the these assets that the troll in there should even hans when i say putting all. due respect this interim president he said he wants to compensated i mean is it a thief stealing from i mean that's the reality and it's a logic of this go ahead i say keep going keep going keep me here i mean a bankrupt they destroyed i mean. including rough irony to date he truly believes that that's why we weigh in from st kong five mediocre byron the the fourth child to us we do a show now that barely. really uses barely one. borrows the eight that was a drop of oil prices well wasn't it anymore not royalty. we had that.

case of russia that's still the case of saudi arabia is still even in the case of the u.s. i mean come on i know it's called the global price drought everybody wants her pain if you will or with her the most you know i would have i would argue ok all right gentlemen i'm going to we have to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on venezuela stay with r.t. . i think the numbers mean something they've matter to us is over one trillion dollars . more than ten white collar crime happens. eighty five percent of global

wealth to be rid eight percent world market thirty percent some with one hundred would prefer second per second and if we rose to twenty thousand. china's building two point one billion dollars a. industrial park but don't let the numbers over. the only number you need to remember one one business showed you know board the mint one and only boom box. the word count of four to return to the unrestrained competition of the cold war that was the plea made by the u.n. secretary general earlier this week with the us pulling out of the i.n.f. treaty and russia rolling out new nuclear weaponry should we be more worried about the weapons themselves or the people who have the codes.

came here where did you work before you came here when you live. in many us states capital punishment is still practiced convicted prisoners can spend years waiting for execution and most of the time the victims' families they are very much in favor of the death penalty there are some people because of what they did have given up their rights as live among us some even proven innocent of two years on death row and how mourns operations is it going to take before we as a society realize that this is not working and we actually do something about.

welcome back to cross talk where all things are considered i'm peter about to mind it we're discussing venezuela. ok let me go back to don in. york. dawn knows me very well and of course my viewers do and i'm a very conservative person and i'm not a very big friend of socialism as it has been practiced in the world everyone knows that having said that don and i'm not being an apologist of chavez but i think it's pretty clear to say that a lot of people were in franchised in every single possible way in venezuela i mean before chavez the literacy rate was low and now it's almost universal i am not praising chavez i'm praising those programs all right so it seems to me that there's millions and millions of in his wayland's that are invested in a future that was being built under a socialist government the socialist government has made some very big big mistakes

and i always look at corruption ok however my point is here is that you have a population that is vested in a future for venezuela when they didn't have that opportunity before go ahead don. yeah beginning with living indoors since chavez there has been to what i have million two and a half million apartments built for people who before had to live in our goals that's in a country of about twenty five million people that's a huge accomplishment under the conditions that we just heard described in terms of oil production which by the way certainly the u.s. sanctions that have been imposed on venezuela have had an impact as well as the litigation trying to tie up the resources of venezuela in the u.s. courts like citgo have had an impact on venezuela's entire oriel industry but there are people who were materially invested because their lives are much better than they were before and they comprise

a little better than half on on election day they comprise between forty and fifty five percent depending on the election over the last you know period since the one nine hundred ninety eight so you have people who have an opinion about this who feel very strongly i would just say also when you have aerial views of the competing rallies yeah go on in venezuela right now you have a good idea about that because you have a million people that show up from a doro and tens of thousands that show up for the opposition ok i say i should give i see i was i see what i was ignitions are on the ground to give the other prison to give the other position i will introduce the question here isaac. reflect upon what you have heard and are you for i have you been a supporter of these sanctions against your country and do you support new sanctions because it doesn't seem i haven't finished my question it doesn't seem to have had much impact on the elites because well sanctions rarely do go ahead i

think in. terms of all the time since i mean these are. actually outside assistance. and violent and violators of human rights stuff. no they're for using. that if so why because you want these assets to be transferred to the least you can recall or m n o one where you go in order to but i mean that's the first thing i'm talking about the sanctions if you want to talk about the sanctions and. you know i have my mom eighty seven years all leaving . she was in the hospital last week and she had to take. an antibiotic for an inspection and she couldn't find it and she asked someone he said he and. i'm going to tell you in all that we have powers short to just eat get agca every day my sister leaching downtown. has power shortages every day and

these lack of mitigation and the well that but is that because of sanctions or is that because you're saying. you know i don't know all this it's because we have a failed state we ok i see her i see i see i see it after i see how i've given you more than i say being fair what i warned everyone before the recording please don't talk the talk over people you were given your time slot alfred you were you raised your hand like a good like a schoolboy wanting to inject something go ahead and you're a gentleman with a bow tie i can't resist go ahead alfred well peter when i went through and as who had i thought like i say i thought now socialism as a failed model and it's all men who are as well now i spend an enormous times studying the think years studying for instance the book by pasqualino or

now mine or we see only their medical. articles and i read in the morning the people on wednesday the articles by mark advised were or by. those written a couple of very clever books on venezuela and i am persuaded today that obviously . in socialism there are too many idle logs and not enough technocrats and you newt need technocrats but the real crisis is a direct result of the economic war and the economic war did not start yesterday the economic war started in one hundred ninety nine is been twenty years ago anomic war there's been financial blockade and for instance when the government has tried to buy insulin you hundred transactions start by the banks because it will not transfer the seven and a half million dollars necessary to purchase insulin or to purchase antiretroviral

drugs back in november said a dozen seventeen when i was there there was a malaria outbreak in the amazon region. mother wants to buy and in malaria medicine from colombia colombia says low you have to go and buy it in india and roll it in so the question is here the cost of the crime ok the cars are ok how alfred alfred you know because of your good behavior isaac has raised his hand and he would like to jump in isaac would you like to respond to what alfred said going you're going to you're going to lead to. the problem here is that we have a real date on a will to basic things to people and i want to talk about these callers right whatever a book in this when i'm talking about my family their marriage i'm not talking about us tractions about the ada or statistics i'm talking about the real life of

people when you have almost sure media then this will and that contradict anything that they want to because they like to eat then this will be one to our albeit higher choose you know going to go along we. know it's because there are leak a situation but i know what i say when i said you know what there's one way to kind of result hang on down everyone's raising their hand that's great i just want to say something that isaac then i will go directly to dan here that's why we have elections ok and if the opposition doesn't want to participate in the elections then then really then you're saying that you give your you're giving way and you've given way and that and that's what you get is a result here and it's since the opposition hardly can speak to it self before all this and now they won't speak to anyone for a negotiated end of this and this is what the government has been saying don you've been very patient i have to give fair time to everyone don go ahead. very quickly

first that the beginning of this if socialism is such a failed experiment what is china. because they consider themselves still a socialist and a communist state with chinese characteristics. you know i have to say that it's important for people to keep in mind this thing that has to do with venezuela's assets being you know at the dock in the us courts and that the whoever ends up being the president recognized by the u.s. courts as president of venezuela will be free to dispose of these we're talking about one point three billion dollars for christology international over a gold mine contracts for example you have to. go into dollars i'm talking about it would fill up your brain and you bring up a very good point but what if it is why don't guy can't get back into venezuela is he just going to sit on all the wealth of venezuela in

a plush palatial new york apartment is he going to run the country there i mean my goodness is that maybe alfred you wanted to know what he would be the i mean he wouldn't he might be a billionaire in exile maybe that's not a bad option for him alfred going you know i want to get i want to get everyone paratime alfred go ahead and then we all agree that we want genuinely to help then as well in a. crisis how to do it i think through mediation i think the month that we deal mechanism it's a good idea i think until a new group that is a proposal to offer these united nations good offices is good. our high commissioner has been or recently invited to visit the country i think all of these are good initiatives we have to calm down and we have to go back to the u.n. charter that prohibits the direct off and the use of force we have to go back to

the oil. yes charter i read you article nineteen of the oil as well yes john and since no state or group of state has the right to him to remain directive or enter a plea for any reason whatever in the internal affairs a state article or twenty knows they may use or encourage the use of corporate sent measures of an economic or political character in order to force the sun and will again others. i gotta jump in i want to make sure everyone gets one more word in before we end our isaac and auto ago us briefly about the charter of the organization of american states that's what you owe us sixty one because they interfere in the venezuelan affairs you know they fail by invading too much although be going to squeal and they say oh they get read in this way and under all of. the great elected president you know won't do what i got in.

that right like right wing i mean it's. ok let me tell you know a thing about thirty rainy day you know in fair elections mate twenty eight gene and you have a fair elections when you band can be the stronger position to run when you have kindly they'd look all of the locals in you know he's the one you are in to go back to run yeah you'll have it as i presume you have why when did i drag and wasn't elected to anything i think bricklaying what i'm selfish thing i'm doing a president or not so i was a stand in wrong all right you are easy if you use a representative who was elected even in to share election that we had because the opposition going down through election white guilt was elected as a member of the minutes while an argument and he was elected president of the

prince went on a moment and according to. when i go to shoot when you're all right and you get down to the end that is one interpretation and gentlemen we've run out of time i want to thank my guests in new york jim event and in ottawa and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.t. see you next time and please remember crosstalk. oh my dough for sixteen novels and i'm not going to do to know. just foreign. isis fighters and boarding a philippine naval ship. but

not for me ned now nineteen lives. just aren't up to the still don't know what's waiting for them. to. be here tell you not to. take it out on. the man on the plane. one fof it you know these doing the stock buybacks which is you know used to be illegal call recently that's completely fraudulent and yes no governments are oversight whatsoever you know he's a war the war the biggest are the biggest shareholder of wells fargo for example.

during that period when they were engaged in serial criminality when they were engaged in absolute fraud and he's a party to that so he's a guy who given unlimited credit at zero percent and is exempt from the rule of law still can't seem to make money for his shareholders which is you know that. you know we're number one movie capital in united states we all slow number one way to do. i mean those who feel like you shall before. us which for most. people you selling crack rock or you got to we can jump shot in order to excuse. the judge who you got to act like a lying in a most almost like

a piece of the beast so this is somebody who also if it is at the rules for. pakistan says it has it shot down to indian air force jets over disputed kashmir capturing two pilots as a nuclear armed rivals violence escalates. lawmakers grill donald trump the disgraced former lawyer michael cohen who has admitted to lying to congress before tells the lawmakers about his ex boss with claims ranging from trump being a racist to dirty financial dealings. nine arrests are made at peace.