hello and welcome to cross talk where all things considered i'm peter lavelle much was expected from the noise summit there may have been goodwill on both sides but in the end neither the united states nor north korea could agree on the path forward the two sides failed to reach a common understanding of what their desired endgame for denuclearization actually is. crosstalk in the noise summit i'm joined by my guest john merrill in washington he is the former chief of the north east asia division of the bureau of intelligence and research at the u.s. state department and who is now a visiting scholar at the institute for korean studies at george washington

university also in washington we have michael maloof he is a former senior security policy analyst in the office of secretary of defense and in new york recrossed and lee she is the author of several books including the award winning book what the u.s. can learn from china and will china's economy collapse all right crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate it let's go to michael maloof first in washington the future dean of trump's studies at some prestige this university and the future here michael i don't think any of us are really surprised that it ended up in failure and one of the things the optics of it all and listening to the president president trump during this trip he really kind of pushed you know prosperity a future of. north korea integrated being rich in and reaching the living standards of its southern neighbor or even vietnam that was touted but the north koreans more than anything else want security and that was one of the huge disconnects watching this failed summit go ahead michael. yeah i think that i

think you're absolutely right security is uppermost in their mind. can jump on actually was invited vietnam to view some factory that was that it really showing a lot of prosperity and he actually stated his motel room so security was really more more on his mind than anything secondly. if security and that promise of security is to come to north korea i think that that would ultimately. frighten china as well they need that they need a buffer and if the west is going to have that kind of an influence up to up to china itself i think there is i think china basically put the skids on thing are a little ones that will touch on that a little bit later big for its own reasons ok let me go to end in new york here and one of the things in watching this whole process here is that i'm far more

impressed it's impressive in some it's our but i'm far more impress on how the two koreas are working developing their bilateral relationship isn't that really the way to go forward to see how far they can and then maybe with the blessings of the united states for good or ill because it's they have the most at stake here and it seems to me this summit is really putting. the cart before the horse i mean there's so many things that need to be dealt with before we can get to that point and it's called competence building and i see the two koreas actually doing that go ahead in new york. i absolutely agree with you peter and i apologize again. it's i'm getting over a cold. i agree there are a lot of integration issues that would have to be worked out between these two countries if they were to ever reunite again especially given that south korea is

so much more advanced than the north koreans and there would have to be an enormous training it would be practically a humanitarian crisis really trying to integrate all these people that have been shut out of the modern world and so yes i think the conversations going on between these two countries are absolutely necessary. but certainly the bigger picture of the geo political issues between china and the u.s. cannot be ignored in this in this conversation about whether north korea did nuclear arises because so much of it depends on whether the united korea you'd actually be a neutral territory or would you know one of the big powers have more influence there that's a very good point let me go to john here on one of course the trump administration first and foremost what's on their mind is denuclearization but i think common sense kind of dictates that that's going to be the last step in not the first step

wouldn't it be better for the united states to develop a bilateral relationship with north korea as building confidence between the two because you know it's really based i mean other than this these two summits and the whatever the personal chemistry is of the two leaders here you know by a lot a relationship is zero ok you should not be really the the the the jumping off point because then you can start dealing with other issues i mean there's no reason in the world any common sense person would. perceive the north koreans would give up their only major chip on the table i mean that's the last. give away i mean it's is is much is a neo cons in washington hate that idea that's the last step it's not the first go ahead john well yeah i think we should have been prepared to adopt a more gradual approach rather than going for a big package all at once you know the numbers are important the estimate of how

many nuclear warheads north korea might have the top numbers. i think the united states has close to seven thousand as does russia so i think with respect to south korea i think the feeling in seoul is you remember a few years ago there used to be a lot of talk about japan passing yeah. president moon wasn't that involved apparently in these arrangements and trump right after things failed to reach a settlement gave him a call for a fairly long period of time i guess half an hour and moon i guess will be coming here for a meeting with president trump so the south koreans are going to get back involved and i think they're very useful as a as a as a go between so i think this is not a permanent failure i think it's a temporary setback and i think we'll get going again i absolutely agree with you

and michael and maybe you can learn from this failure here is not not going as john put it for such a large package because. like i said to me having this what these weapon systems and launchers is the only thing that can. bring in the united states i mean i'm sure north korea is basking in the in the sun right now that's what they want they want legitimacy they want to be treated with respect they want they want to be treated as some kind of equal here in part of the nuclear club here but on a different tone here do you think people like. john bolton are particularly disappointed with the outcome. well i know i don't think they were disappointed at all i think that while no number of things first of all it became increasingly apparent that the trumpet was going to be pushing a gradualist approach. toward denuclearization. and.

because they knew they could not get it all and secondly for but for bolton and pompei o and company the cons it really doesn't serve their purpose for everything to work out and to come to come to a conclusion because they they need to keep those troops there they need to keep otherwise a peace breaks out all over then then they lose their ability to influence events and and also to. also continue to watch china as well but it's not it's not realistic to think that the neo cons are going to get everything and in fact they probably the net probably never will be total denuclearization i agree with you because as you point out he will he will lose his he will lose that one trump card and all he ever has to do is point to saddam the history of saddam and khadafi and of libya as proof of that you have the law of unintended he also

has internal issues ok we'll get to the internal in the second have also let me go to and here you know and i mean there was a lot of talk of chatter about a possible the possibility of ending the korean war because as we all know there was only an armistice that the war is still technically on if a peace treaty had been signed then logic would dictate i guess that why would the united states keep up to twenty eight thousand troops in south korea if there is no conflict there i mean this is the this is another law of unintended consequences and i don't i tend to think the pentagon doesn't want the peace to break out because now they have a legal legitimate reason i suppose to be there but in an environment of peace what would that. the gym izing issue be it would be taken off the table go ahead and a new york. nail on the head there is a political consultant secret called rhodium group in washington that basically.

put out a report back as like twenty eleven or two thousand and twelve saying that there was too much peace in asia pacific and they were very worried because that would make them completely make the us completely irrelevant since the u.s. was largely there on security basis as opposed to an economic power that was really more of china's realm and so this conundrum caused them to come up with new ways to try to trauma reasons to the role of it by artificially manufacturing issues like with the south china seas with the east china seas and obviously with north korea because when there are. divisions and tensions between these other countries that's good for the united states because that enables the u.s. to stay the number one power whereas the other folks do get out and we could see

most recently what happened with pakistan and india you know one could argue that there was never any healing between these two countries because the british empire probably you know failed to redraw the lines correctly and thus created a lot of tension here that. you know we keep them preoccupied and therefore not a threat to western nations. i mean usable or dynamic right let me jump in to go to john before we go to the break here quickly answer is china happy with the result tonight in her knowing go ahead john twenty seconds before we go to the break. no i don't think so and i think north korea wants the u.s. troops to stay i don't see any ok to to say that they want them out to the extent that north korea has become a status quo power and just wants to survive and develop its economy the u.s. presence on the peninsula has a certain utility not least of which is visa v.

china the relationship between pyongyang and beijing is all right more very complex hold that i've had a total hold out caught hold that thought we're going to quickly reappear i right we well well after a quick break we're going to continue our discussion on the you know what summit stay with our team. came here where did you work before you came here when as you live well death row and in many u.s. states capital punishment is still practiced convicted prisoners can spend years waiting for execution but most of the time the victims' families they are very much in favor of the death penalty there are some people because of what they did have given up their rights as live among us somebody even proven innocent years on death row and how many more exonerations is it going to take before we as

a society realize that this is not working and we actually do something about. this manufacture can be sentenced to public wealth. when the ruling classes protect themselves. with the famous merry go round only the one percent. we can all middle of the room six.

welcome back to crossfire for all things considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing the one ois summit. well let me go back to john you know people come up with the greatest comments and statements as we're going to the break here's i want to continue what he had to say here i mean one of the things that's very interesting to all of you here is that we all tend to think about after some kind of deal is made unification of korea well how would it would it be a neutral country would it be swayed to be in the sway of the united states would it be in this way of china everybody wants to know the answer to that question and you were alluding to it john go ahead and continue what you were saying before the break. well what i was saying peter is i think that in recent years north korea has come to accept the u.s. troop presence in south korea they may not like the fact that those troops are

pointed to gets them but if you look at the power disparity the growing power disparity apart from the nuclear weapons because more than south and the relative size of the two economies and the those troops remaining on the peninsula serve as a security guarantee for north korea they also have to worry like everyone else in the region about china's ambitions so i don't think north korea has any complaints with u.s. troops they don't like provocative exercises and i'm happy to say that trump has said that the exercises will continue to be suspended unless north korea does something that provokes again so i think that's overplayed that's very interesting mike you want to jump in there but we have to remember that not all south koreans like having the american military there we have to remember what they want and don't like because and under conditions of a complex under the conditions of a conflict the united states actually takes control of south korea's defenses and

intelligence so there's a there's a sovereignty issue here as well michael you want to jump in go ahead. yeah this gets to the very definition of what denuclearization rightly meant to both sides as they were going into this discussion for the for the north koreans denuclearization as we as we came to understand it was the removal of all u.s. troops as well as all. i know the terror i hate censoring the i hate to interrupt mike i think totally disagree with that there's no evidence for it. keep going michael. ok well well i feel that i feel that this this was why we have an issue over the definition of the nuclearization and it became an issue where where we talk about fault total elimination of weapons their definition of denuclearization was to remove u.s.

troops they they they want and of course they don't have a a they have this closeness with with china that as you'll recall every time that kim visit has has a summit he goes to china first and talks so there is something there is obviously a well he is it there this time what he doesn't need is china sure but this time. well sure they need each other but that's a relationship that has had a lot of troubles over the years and i had someone who i don't know who visited north korea and china and described the relationship as not lips and teeth but bruises lips and broken teeth so it's a relationship that's fraught difficult to say well you having the united states there provides a balance well well let me add one other ok we're only i was kind of the only on the cross talking you have politically incorrect talk like this here mike real

quick because i want to go to and go ahead mike but yes sure because i had i read one report this morning that trump during the course of these conversations actually called. paying up china the president asking for him to help out on the on the north korea you know here on this latest discussion he called on call to make though he was reliant on it right he called him a great leader and you're an expert on china how does china because again you know the way the media plays it up it's two leaders you know in a third country but there are so many other facets of what's going on right here the media doesn't really focus a lot on it again on the same question is china satisfied or dissatisfied with what happened in one you know you go ahead and. china really. wants freedom to vacation that's been their official position mostly because china wants to reunify with taiwan and so they don't want to seem inconsistent here however

they don't want to see u.s. troops on their border if he's to reunite and so for china one of the big questions is whether the u.s. with will withdraw some of their military if these two countries become one and so they want to know how close is that relationship between u.s. and south korea and. and i know that china has had a history of relations with north korea. and it's mostly because there were a lot of folks in china's government that were trying to undermine xi jinping. so they were the ones that were sneaking in military and other. supplies to the north koreans flouting she brings order and so she's a big himself as a lot of internal issues to deal with but i think that after she being was able to

consolidate more power under him. and cleaned out some of those folks that were defying. his policies. basically said you know. that you know you're the one that i'm going to respect because i know that all the people who are trying to undermine you your back are now in jail and i can't deal with them anymore and so i think that's a difference that has happened between the north koreans and china but you know make no mistake china does not want nuclear i ask because that could spin out of control shared all that's all that's on there and china quite literally the fallout here you know john what it could mean counterintuitive here i mean i guess for the pentagon in its. presence in south korea it serves many different purposes it shows to the other alliance members of alliances the united states has in that part

of the world their commitment if it was suddenly withdrawn could be doubts with philippines japan etc it seems to me that really at the end of the day. the church the chinese and the americans you know when push comes to shove they kind of actually growing gradually would admit the status quo they can all live with it trump wants a no trump wants a nobel prize ok it seems pretty obvious to me but i mean if you look at i'm serious ok but i mean. well the people could live with the status quo here because i don't believe that the north koreans would ever use those weapons i mean i do believe that they use it is a deterrent and it's a way to have sanctions relief but not enough and some force because we all know we then forty five minutes would be ashes so the status quo but people are pretty happy with go ahead john. well i think that's i think that's right peter and i

think that north korea has gradually evolved over the last few decades into a status quo power they want to survive and recently they have another goal that has risen to the fore which is they want to develop their economy and they were prepared to give up their. their nuclear card at the outset and they wanted sanctions relief which they didn't get very much of a promise of very much so i think that's why the talks collapsed. you know i'm i don't think they will get started i do too i think you know if failure you can learn from here i want to ask michael and and also the same question here because we keep talking about possible unification not because i think we all really want that i mean one nation divided terrible war a terrible cold war that they've had for for decades there are there are families that are still divided and there's a lot of really good things to think about when unification but what about the kim

family i mean are they going to go peacefully if we get unification what are you going to do i mean because i think it's fair to say that it's you know the sovereignty of north korea and the sovereignty of the kim family are almost a complete overlap here ok i mean they don't want to you know sign a peace treaty and have them go into oblivion that their whole history in running that country is all about being that country go ahead michael and then i want to and ass answer go ahead well i just think i just think that survival for the kim family is paramount that that is what they want and i think that they would go to war in order to preserve their own but i don't think they would use the nuclear weapon i guard in that in that in that area because they don't want to destroy south korea they don't want to contaminate everybody around i think it's more for intercontinental purposes but it also gives them a leverage and they want to keep the. leverage as long as they're in a position to control things and i just don't see them ever denuclearizing for that

reason and i and i don't and contrary to what china wants but at the same time china wants to keep north korea as a buffer i think that they don't want to have western influence right up up to there but they and that's why china isn't cooperating fully on the sanctions they're still allowing things to go on and i mean this. i mean that even though you know like what was it eighty thousand bottles of vodka were going to stop them in rotterdam it was going to i don't. really care that we could use ninety thousand and i think it was in the netherlands ok i don't really i don't i don't know if they were thinking they can get stuff they can get stuff here and the same question or you know it's curious really really feeling the pain of actions that can't get their vodka. i don't know it's a big big popular drink there unless the kid lived in europe for a while maybe russia russian influence ok there you go there's always going to be

russian meddling isn't going to give with her horace voice and her tremendous enthusiasm as a last minute of the program go ahead and. so i think that what to reunification that might be satisfactory for the kim family would be something that was like what happened with hong kong transitioning back to china where there is a fifty year period where they could still have their own sovereignty and it could be a gradual process so that they could work out all the kinks. but you're absolutely right they could actually you know maintain the status quo because these weapons are truly only used for deterrent it doesn't harm anybody you know nobody seriously thinks that north korea is a threat to the u.s. for the very reasons we said yes they have ok but the question really going to end

on this how on earth can really read and us a seven thousand. there going on here and let me just imagine that we were not at that run as you know they run out of time we've run out of time many thanks to my guests in new york and in washington and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.t.c. unix time and remember crosstalk. you know we're number one in the capital in united states we also number one. will. be. coming also so mike you shall before. christmas. eve will you selling crack rock or you got to we could just shop and

order to escape. like along in a months almost like a piece of obese so this is somebody who. at the rules for. most people think to stand out in this business you need to be the first one on top of the story or the person with the loudest voice of the biggest raid in truth to stand out in the lose business you just need to ask the right questions and demand the right answer. question. the maternity town the slums go in and you may never get out some sort of.

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my son doing drugs my nephews was still in drugs my sister just with doing drugs it was like an epidemic of drug abuse america's public enemy number one in the united states is drug abuse started going after the users in the prison population. we started treating sick people people who are addicted to these drugs like criminals while i was on the hill. the war on drugs. there are countless numbers of people who are in prison for. sins for minor minor offenders in the drug trade it's a lot watching your children grow up and miss you in waves and say bye daddy as you're walking out of the abyss it's just it doesn't get easier.

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