hello and welcome to worlds apart adam smith the four father of modern economics the one sad resentment is the safeguard of justice and the security of innocence the latest wave of resentment that produced bracks tromp is open discounted as populism or russia's plotting but isn't it and inevitably authentically western response to the injustices and abuses of globalization while to discuss that i'm now joined by frank you're going to retire founder and chairman of harasses global visions committee mr richter's good to talk to you thank you very much for the time . for having me now i know that you worked for a number of european multinationals in china you saw globalization up close and personal and you usually speak very favorably about it but i wonder if that's not their vantage point bias if you happen to observe it let's say from the american midwest wouldn't your views be a little bit different. only experiencing

a crisis of globalization the deep seated resentment. spoiling overruled white create portion of the rule is proceeding to itself. loses this recent. by the movement in france but also by the rise of donald trump and i guess most of those who voted for globalization it was one of the things that we usually hear about globalization is that it lifted millions of people out of poverty and that is undeniable nobody argues but if you happen to be had over a multinational company it would have also benefited your bank account in very very generous ways whereas if you are a blue collar worker who saw his factory closed and a shopping mall opened in its place what did bad if it's of globalization be just as a parent well globalization is here to stay there's no doubt about it but i think we have to redefine global. sation and maybe catalyze the benefits of globalization

you put it right to. the anglo-saxon model of capitalism and the globalization eastern crisis even so we have seen an economy croes over the last few would take it's not everybody is spending fitting from globalization we see the shrinking of the middle class in america and in europe in even saw on the surf ace does a lot of economic success the middle class is shrinking and less people who can really benefit from globalization well let's talk about why that happened as ation clearly has benefited export oriented economies like china or germany much more and much more evenly than import oriented economies including the u. globalization or the current form of globalization where that region eight in america wasn't of balun to occur there you know we see the specter of globalization and the discontent of globalization is especially new as you put it right again america is mostly importing goods from germany for example cars and from china fast

moving consumer goods and of course america is very strong in the tech sector about it lost its manufacturing sector i guess america will never be in the position to revive its manufacturing sector it's too late it's too late now to build steel mills like in the past we see this is division of the ruled for of all why you'd in america should focus on technology you believe that the current american administration is making a big mistake trying to rebalance imports and exports and i was starting a trade war with china but also was germany and other european countries and i think this treaty will really really lead to the. ultimately even even to an economic crisis but why are you saying it's too late to try to rebalance the distribution of labor around the world because it's not just about jobs it's also about local taxes and then do united states schools local infrastructure off funded by local to. if you bring a factory in from overseas and place it somewhere in

a high it would have a reply factor all of the community it's not just about you know i believe they trams base in terms of giving them jobs but also how being the local economy in syria yes of course it would be feasible but i think it's too late because you know the cost in america is just too high it's much more economic to manufacture in china and partly even and surely because germany go to a very performance oriented economy and it's able to churn of cars and other products that for a reasonable price america is not able to do so and the whole american colony actually is spaced on gnome's people are not really putting money aside the saving the domestic saving rate is around twenty percent in comparison it's around forty five percent in china so it will never happen again as in that's a lot scream while of the status quo also seems to be rather an tangible and you

can see that by the change of the american political spectrum because it's not just about trump he's opponents on the left people like bernie sanders essentially talking about the same problem all damasio caging the wild but they they have a different way of going about it increasing the taxes on the reach we each of these two ways you find more economically viable well i would always school for like a centrist approach avoiding the very far left and the very far life the right but something in the middle i agree that we have to be faxed to the losers of globalization and we have to increase taxes and i'm i'm not looking to communists and i'm not looking into socialism but i believe that we have to create a more inclusive ruled and yes we have to increase taxes always reducing taxes is not helping anybody because we have to build infrastructure our hospitals cannot garden and of course we need tax income for that. now you are the chairman of the

harasses forum which brings each year leaders from all over the world to talk about those issues and i know that the upcoming mitigate in april is going to be dedicated to quote discussing a morally decent form of globalization does it mean that globalization as it stands right now is morally in decent. hosting give us a global meeting in cash price in portugal in early april is around eight hundred participants including four head of states and fifteen ministers and we'll debate the future of globalisation and maybe providing a moral compass for it. globalisation lost its moral compass and maybe we have to put more values into the system my personal opinion is we have to strengthen my international institutions now we're living in a dog eat dog world it's like them loose loose game having always you know action

and counteraction so we need to put back to the system and we need stronger leadership and better leadership well it's interesting to me that you mentioned the moral issue because there are there are lots of moralizing about. economic slogans but again america first making america great again and that's all dismissed as populism but don't they deserve a substantial serious discussion about. how mobilization has essentially been able to freed the while from any national affiliation and any social responsibility that comes with it don't you find it striking that globalization is now being discussed in moral terms rather than a canonical terms i agree i think we need a new syria when you go to the business schools which you go to mit and harvard out and stand for what you're learning about series of the past i think if the doctor can make models and if told of all of the moral compass behind globalization and we have to avoid. the lose lose scenario with toward or store windows scenario us

english should always look into dialogue where people can always harmonize our differing opinions for we can find compromise and it is end of the day having everybody winning from globalization so we need a neat new siri and we meet in cash price in april at the closing ben-ari we will propose an action plan how to make it happen well i think you laid out some of your ideas in your article already and you suggested for example dab for globalization to work for the masses while the way it would be you break the cycle of political short termism by extending electoral terms if trump were to take your advice what kind of reaction do you think a bad with provoke in the united states you know in europe and us usually we exchange presidents. in a short term mood and. if you look into the chinese system for example it's much

more long term oriented and i would even call the russian system in this regard it's more long term oriented and i think we have to extend the term or for presidents and prime ministers in power i'm not saying the trump should stay in touch or for ever of course it's a political decision but i'm saying that in general we need longer term suitably western prime ministers coming in in the first year just trusting sings maybe in the second year trying to lead on long term strategy and from the sort of to your on is he starting again to sing about reelection so we need to a long term orientation we need to think about the future we have to invest in education have to invest in technology this will the chinese now will lead us in artificial intelligence because with a very long term oriented strategy but mr richter don't you think that what you're suggesting is there is a major heresy a lot of liberal thinkers said jasper thing that non democracy. and i'm putting it

mildly you know russia and china are usually described in different terms as suggesting that those countries have something to teach the west well i think we shouldn't teach each other in eyes of the west to china russia and all the other way around but you have can learn from each other and maybe the true somber in the middle i'm saying that democracy is still the best form of governance but we need to think about democracy in a different room where we can have long term decisions and not just short term actions think about economy when trump of the economy in two years ago or the post in tax cuts of course we have seen an economy grows of three percent but no we are reaching and experiencing a bubble that's not long term economic strategy it's really short term orientation and it's maybe the reason of the feel of the so-called anger sex and model of capitalism now you will mentioned russia before so let me ask one more question about russia and trauma because trump is sometimes presented as

a russian creation but if we look at the comic fundamentals which you mentioned actually before the shrinking of the middle class in the united states the huge trade deficit the and norm s. exacerbation all of wealth inequality speech in the united states is much wider than in odd their western countries doesn't doesn't at all make a uniquely american and alice than to claim merican phenomenon hume responding to a unique sav of a factor that globalization has on the united states right it's a very american approach of course keeping government very small it's a very libertarian approach of course and maybe america should not go to the left but the bernie sanders approach from maybe try to copy the north and european model of capitalism what we usually have in sweden denmark norway and in finland here.

really democracy and globalization has found the right way you know it's like a middle way a lot of compromise from them for example experienced also always a monthly guaranteed income for everybody and i think that's the way to go it's it's a mix between free wheeling capitalists and democracy and maybe a bit more of socialism in here saying the west can indeed learn more from countries like china and russia economically that sounds very appealing but do you think it is. reasonable politically do you think it's achievable politically given the level of political polarization in the united states it's just there from the polarization and we can either choose some kind of that's from the very left or we can choose trump and i think the center is kind of disappearing but also i'm the moderated republicans and democrats and i can only hope that a candidate can come up who will unite american people and will be electable by

a part of the ocean ok well mr ritter we have to take a very short break now but we will be back in just a few moments. what

do you do if we came here where did you work before you came here when you live well death row and in many us states capital punishment is still practiced convicted prisoners can spend years waiting for execution but most of the time the victims' families they are very much in favor the death penalty there are some people that because of what they did have given up the right to live among us some even proven innocent after years on death row and how many more exonerations is it going to take before we as a society realize that this is not working and we actually do something about. welcome back to worlds apart you're going to return chairman addresses mr ritter just before the break we started talking about how differently countries are

affected by globalization depending on whether they rely more on imports or exports how would that change that definition of free and fair trade and doesn't trump have a point an economic point when he says that what's free trade for china or germany is not necessarily fair trade for the united states the reason why trump is launching the trade for in china it's definitely linked to his feel that china is not really playing according to the rules in terms of free trade and fair to eat he always believes that the chinese economy is fully supported by speed on company chief loans and also national interest definitely you know there's some truth to it still very large state owned companies in china but the current economy crows and the economic miracle of china is small sleep due to the private sector company.

polly. tencent and those are really the stars and i think trump is here missing the point because already unknown and already today china is very much an open economy was very strong private sector now well we've seen the chinese make some concessions but i think they're pretty modest compared to the american or at least transgressive and says with with china there are people within the trumpet ministration whole are who take issue not just with chinese trade practices but with the entire nature of its economic system as you just pointed out do you think the trumpet ministration will limit itself to just you know tariff and trade concessions or will they go for further will they try to reshape china's entire can all make model well. put an extension to the terrace so we don't really know what's happening i would say it's like a fifty fifty chance that a full fledged trade war is really happening and hopefully there will be some truce

and. finally an agreement but yes it's not only trait it's not only the. deficit america is experiencing but the whole economic and political model i think us and trump identifying china as the next week and then me it's actually not russia it's china and china it's certainly challenging america economically we have such a strong economy in china and i believe that china is a new engine of global economic rose and china will write economic history you often say in your interviews that china is now dead driver of globalization and i've heard the odds are economists that jazz that the future of capitalism now depends as much on the communist party of china as it historically depended on the democrats or the republicans do you think china has what it needs to drive capitalism in the right to. action well when president xi jinping came to warm your

of two years ago he talked about globalization the said china is defending globalization and. part of president trump is seeing the american policies more retrenching it's more more taking view i believe the chinese leadership is very weiss china is experiencing some economic problems right now whole economic roads might be. read the fine to six percent kernel is at six point five percent and next week actually the n.p.c. the national people's congress is gathering and talking about those economic measures but china is certain to change gears. really ever reaching the economy and playing with fiscal measures to reboost the economy providing more loans and deal flow more infrastructure and i see that china is on the right track and have the right toolbox you said just

a moment ago that china is defending globalization but it's defending the kind of globalization that you in your own report. by implication called morally indecent that's a very self-serving or china serving form of globalization that does not benefit other countries equally do you think the chinese will also have to come to terms that the current model that exists today will have to be changed well the chinese taking more and more parts in global institutions sing about you know the world bank the i.m.f. the i've see. even. international institutions like the a show infrastructure investment development bank and others so they're good global citizens and an order china is no longer isolated and have to take part in global dialogue and part of the whole globalization game they also understand that globalization should be a win win game think about what the chinese are doing in africa down besting heavily in infrastructure. heavily investing also in education in africa it's good

for the continent it's good of course for china in the long term as well and i think globalization is always benefit both sides and chinese got the moral compass . things on their own and changing even though the investment climate in the past foreign investors in china faced some difficulties when it came to unfair competition and foreign companies had to step to shine bench a company's have to transfer technology but china has changed and is fright now and we will learn more next week when the n.p.c. is meeting about this new china and china's new konami policies mr ritter i heard you say with regards to try the chinese to do what they do bast that is just sit and wait us presidents as you said common go the china's leadership space why are you so sure that these and t.

china antiglobalization streak will disappear once trump leaves office because it was there even before him perhaps not so vocally expressed but they did was definitely their use of us always a lot of china beijing in us but also in europe and i think america and europe building something like a chinese war right into the chinese and trying to limit imports from the chinese what we experience from some of these huawei you know the chinese tech company really successful fighting these attitude about. america and europe shouldn't do that and. on the long term you know once trumpets gone and a new president is there i think we should. approach to china and find the right to run the where we can cooperate and we shouldn't compete on trade we should always try. to be good partners and stop this. now you mentioned europe and i think

europe is a bit in the middle here because politically and militarily it's still associated with the united states but. even economically benefits globalization in a ways similar to china which magnet is likely to prove stronger and do you think europe will remain united they've as it navigates these competing pools well europe currently in a deep crisis in institutional crisis not only that but the whole. framework of the european union but as saying this it may be crisis leaving leading to this finally europe is redefining it still and europe will be stronger under french german leadership saying you will be strongly united and china will be a very strong part no if you're always you know china is truman its largest trading partner folks walking for it somebody from

a car company has china main market and many other of german and european companies as well so yes europe is in between america and china and i think it's a good position that shouldn't really take sites that should work with both sides and we should also include klute russia i believe it's good to collaborate i'm just repeating my work before we need more dialogue and we should stop this confrontation well i think that position in the middle is good if you use it smartly but if we look at what's happening in europe inequalities in terms of economic development within the e.u. are still pretty wide there is a growing feeling of resentment in the south against the north there are tensions between the east and the west of europe not only about doing business with china but as you said doing business with russia what would it take for the e.u. to stay together when it cannot make interest of its members i increasingly diverging you're right we see the divergence speed. i mean the east or west of the

norse and a solid stone about the cellars i'm very concerned about italy in italy's economy might go into recession maybe in the sort of quarter this year and maybe you know longer economic crisis trickling down the whole european union and italy's not crease crease what experienced ten years ago when the first economic crisis hit was a much smaller of course patient so to say. you know what can we do i think we need more inclusion we have to listen to the tele and we have to listen to the eastern europeans we just congolese seeing it's a western european approach we need to listen to those having issues here and find a united voice i think europe has always been very strong having this united force and we need maybe a new leadership in europe leaders who are to europeans who can sing about united continent with strong relationships to america to china and to russia while good

leadership is always the best solution for everything that the question is where to find it i mean i think there are many countries around the world that are really struggling with on that issue can i present globalization and protectionism as they have there are totally in incompatible but there are many countries that do both china is both globalist and protectionist at the same time so is india so is the united states is it really about these tensions between globalisation and protectionism as opposed to the need fair to everybody and make them reflect the current realities of the global economy and you know i believe that protectionism in some very specific areas is the right thing to do his thing about the farming sector and what many african countries experience right now is a cultural sector is suffering and they're importing tomatoes and even meat from the european union so that shouldn't be the case saying. we need to some

self-sufficiency here especially in the cultural sector but everything should be open every single should be linked to the division of labor and we need also free movement of people talking about the phenomenon of my creation i think my creation is good for countries think about the silicon valley in the u.s. most tech pioneers in the u.s. france trying to reach an all second train operation but mr richard the silicon valley is attracting the cream of the call people who go there on their own the courts and who would succeed in any country is it really comparable to a mass and dolphin uncontrolled migration of millions of people whose identities you are not always able to check and host skill sad. is very very different from that all of the silicon valley engineers. we need to. leave a shortage in countries like treme and you know look about the divorce rate in

countries like germany italy so we need migration in all levels for the highly educated engineers and tech part of the us but also for those with much less education and i think the rich countries of the west have to support all smiter and so was looking for exile and those coming over and help them to find a trimix maybe investing also in the own education in helping them do pro i think that's the right way to go what sort of ruled should together and it shouldn't be a doc mentality ok mr ritter we have to leave it there i really appreciate you being with us today and sharing your perspective thanks so much for having me thank you and i know courage of yours to keep this conversation going in our social media pages and hope to see you again same place same time here on the world's apart.

you know world of big part of the lot and conspiracy it's time to wake up to dig deeper to hit the stories that mainstream media refuses to tell more than ever we need to be smarter we need to stop slamming the door on the shouting past each other it's time for critical thinking it's time to fight for the middle for the troops the time is now for watching closely watching the hawks. or. oh my dough from my sixteen novels five months on i said did you know you.

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u.s. backed fighters launched an assault on what is said to be the last stronghold in syria despite having already declared one hundred percent of the group's territory retaking. siberia becomes a winter sports hotspot as student athletes from around the world go for gold to add when the. nineteen. chinese language and cultural centers are threatened with closure and teachers being forced to register as foreign agents across the united states. coming up in about an hour's time we take a look.