are biliteral and flee now it seems the tables have turned what explains these dramatic reversal in post and you know it's interesting that you point that out because we've been saying this for the last many years that pakistan has changed by this is changing for the better getting out of extremism which we had unfortunately found ourselves and we looked in because of you know the historical baggage of the one war and becoming a more great progressive society i think the democratic regimes the last two democratic regimes had much to do with it whereas at the same time b.c. india going deeper and deeper into this ultra nationalist extremist almost in the state non-secular and all thanks to mr moody who has not been the treated his vision into the fabric of indian society i think this crisis is unfortunate as it was exposed the change pakistan worse is the change to india and if i were the world i would be very scared of what i see in india right now for both leaders it

was definitely an opportunity to exercise leadership and they chose very different strategists one of them chose to flex muscles the other one i thought to rely more on his weights do you think that's more reflective of the personality of the two leaders mr modi and mr han or is it indeed more long term reflective of the country's national standing and national post churn. personalities certainly have a role to play i think over here more than just a const personalities mr moody's personality which has had a rule to play in what india has become in the last five years i've been screaming at the top of my lungs for the us by years that india is being let that literally it's playing with fire and it will not be able to put this genie of extremism back in the bottle because once you allow people to become so extremist in this thought process in their action in their reaction then that becomes you so india is no more the secular shining rising india that we. it was possible and the promise to watch

in the morning it's a very different india in pakistan i think the process of the reintroduction of democracy and the political parties maturing has had a huge role to play in it and i think you saw the parliament didn't reacted to this crisis it was restrained it was considered it was debated the prime minister supremacy confound it very easy to take this posturing which was what the parliament and the people of pakistan wanted so it's actually a reflection of changing society behavior and changing national priorities for both countries it's just visible to people like you. know perhaps from this incident while i'm hard what is also visible to people like myself is that india is a democracy it is facing a major parliamentary election in may which may explain why prime minister modi may be more motivated to burnish his strongman image i've also heard people say that

this could be something more long term this could be a change in india's a military strategy in becoming more assertive what do you think is more likely do you think it's mostly political i think it's indeed strategic. look i think it's a bit of both ok because. in a rather stunned really election really right mr moody using the images of people who who passed away in the womb a incident rate which is bringing nationalism and the military right in the middle of politics ok that's one secondly again people like myself have been observing this since perhaps in the moment since time where the deep establishment in india is becoming more and more powerful i remember the time when they wanted to solve the search in a dispute and promised a moment singh was very keen to do so also but was held back by what i can call the deepest of the india so in some ways you know i even tweeted about it you see india

and pakistan falling to very different trajectories we are moving of the form extremism into a more grit progressive hopefully a developing society and india is moving to words a very very belligerent aggressive extremist india and i was just a little bit perhaps disagree with you when you see this is only election related because the lynching of people the whole process of using we reap and billet guns a state policy into smear and really very aggressive behavior towards muslims whether they were in mumbai or your push me or do you or anybody else this started as soon as by mr moody came into power well not that hard the pakistani government is also accused of major human rights abuses on its own territory so let's not paint it black and white but i'm more interested in the political angle of this whole skirmish because when the security and the sovereignty of a state i directly engage there is always pressure on latest to respond in

a mass killer and symmachus way in order not to look weak and yet prime minister han went out of his way to stay conciliatory do you think his response where have been the same if he like his encounter. we're facing an important election no this is what you we really need to understand about pakistan pakistan has changed on that ground pakistan new more considered and the more city against india encouraging in the mostly among to its nationals against any one of its neighbors as good state policy right this is where pakistan is very different than we then india right now because i think we've learned our lessons from history and therefore we don't wish this upon india also because if they go on this trajectory unfortunately they will not be able to be responsible players in the street in this region has suffered for far too long because of this ongoing conflict between these two giants in the region you know if you look at any progress that the street and

could potentially have made we've lost out ok i think we need to fight wars against poverty against giving education to our people giving help opportunities giving economic opportunities it's really sad if in the neighborhood as large as india move towards this extremist belligerent aggressive nation because it doesn't do any good to any of its neighbors and least of all pakistan well i agree with you that the indian response was quite extraordinary because there were suicide attacks before but it was the first time that indian fighter jets crossed deep into pakistan since i think the and nine hundred seventy one into pakistan of what how much of a shoghi thing those indian air raids were to the pakistani political leadership you know interestingly i think with prime minister mu the being in power for the last five years in india we in pakistan were prepared for anything which is unreasonable which could be avoided grabber and close to the election coming in

march and we were we were quite mindful of the fact that any incident will be perhaps manufactured or created i'm not pointing any fingers over there but it will be used as an excuse to do something very irresponsible. because the extent of the responsibility of this act and then the extent of the of the nature of shipping and the lies which have now been exposed internationally it has actually damaged india's credibility far more than the length and breadth of the selections so very responsible people in india perhaps now we can up to that realization and you know very responsible point voices from india also pointing out that we need to stop looking towards pakistan for indigenous problems because what has happened in push me the reaction of the kashmiri people is because of the very strong state terrorism or aggression which has been. pointed towards them in the last five years now i don't want to go into

a blame game right i don't want to say you do this we do that i want to see that these two countries are far too important for the region for their own people and for the world we need to really come to the negotiating table and really have uninterrupted and uninterruptible don't know because dialogue is the only we to really of conflict long term distant relation of two nuclear states whose purpose is that serving it serves no one it just creates a lot of negativity within the region and keeps the region and these two countries from going forward while again one version that i heard in the pakistani and international media who is interested serving. at least initially were intended to serve the interest of their ruling party in india it's too early to say conclusively have this point of time but do you think this incident will end up helping mr modi's electoral chances or g thing it will and hurting him look as our

route which is report recently which clearly says that his. numbers are getting better right after this rate and you see him in the electioneering process really using this. as an you as a powerful tool. i would be very the never know how elections turn out and we never know how politics play out because now in the last two three days you see some sanity emerging by no means about the killing three hundred people in pakistan when they did those have been completely debunked by international media and international organizations so it's really going to be anyone's game but obviously mr grimes to move the is trying very hard and it's quite sure that this will assist him i can also see how it will assist him because in the last five years he's made a very ultra nationalist. ultra stream sort of narrative

shipping in india has now almost become very ingrained it's dangerous for india as it. is dangerous for pakistan now you mentioned before the role of the media and how differently they cheer countries in gauge the media because india almost immediately closed of this side of the suicide bombing attack whereas pakistan around the country invited media over to the side of the strikes to undermine the indian damage claims i wonder if this is perhaps an eel area of foreign policy or of diplomacy for pakistan in gauging the international public opinion much more practically and by the use of not only traditional but also social media you know i don't think it's about public opinion that we don't think it's about pakistan was able to you know do agree drawer at a p.r. handling i don't think the p.r.

handling it says this i think this is a changing reality excesses and i think pakistan was just able to engage of both the world through its changing reality and i think the importance of the state in the world depends on its credibility right now the credibility of india through this whole crisis and. how they managed it has actually been reduced to a very very new number simply for the pact that every claim that was made by the establishment by the military by the indian politicians by the indian media has actually been proven to be incorrect satellite imagery has proven it to be incorrect though everything that pakistan was seeing could be proven by exposing them to be a little on the ground and therefore pakistan was meche more keen to engage with national bindiya and international media because what it was seeing could be corroborated by facts on the ground now this is a very dangerous situation because if a country feels if the people who are in power in that particular country in india for instance feel that they can for their own people into this ultra nationalistic

you know jingoistic reaction by feeding them lies and then the media picks up those lies and multiplies the many times then what are you turning your population into and how are you expecting them to react to a neighbor like pakistan because then everything that happens in india is immediately put on pakistan's shorter this is a dangerous dangerous trend and for a country as though it is india aspiring to be a security council member to lose its credibility this march and to be using lies and manufactured events both in front of international for forget the media international clearance and its own people i think it's very very sad and i don't think this plays on well for anyone even pakistan should not be happy by india which is choosing to exit in such a manner we don't want to embarrass them well madame hard we have to take a short break now but we will be back in just a few moments. so

we've got to do is identify the threats that we have it's crazy confrontation let it be an arms. race is also a spirit dramatic developments only really i'm going to resist i don't see how that strategy will be successful very critical time to sit down and talk.

welcome back to worlds apart a bit here in the road bonnie har pakistan's former foreign minister and a member of the national assembly madame har while the current episode seems to be

diffuse the initial premise for the attacks remains that it is militant groups reach into it considers terrorists which the united nations considers terrorists operating in a pakistani territory. do you think that could lead to the tensions flaring up again in the future look i hope the initial premise as it existed ten years back has moved a long long way and it you might have the luxury to be able to ignore that i unfortunately did not have the luxury to simply for the reason that pakistan in the last ten years has forced seventy thousand of its citizens to trying to find these very militant groups that the world claims we have done nothing about pakistan has lost seven thousand to eight thousand soldiers paramilitary forces fighting these very militant groups these terrorist groups the pakistan like india the state cannot do everything at the same time right now the premise of this particular

attack being manufactured or planned or emanating from pakistani soil is entirely incorrect and it has almost been proven to be incorrect not to use anything that happens indigenously because of state policy because a state terrorism in kashmir as a tool to whip pakistan is obviously not fashionable or allowed or will hold because eventually all of us have to look internally boxer's a country today by the way which is a change country we are all confident enough to look internally at the fault lines that we had that we are trying to correct we are trying to protect minorities better we try to protect the i.d.p.'s the people who were displaced because of military action against militant groups in the fatah region which is now. and everywhere else and the fabric of our society has suffered because of that so this to be told for a country which has suffered so much and frankly speaking not suffered for your sake or for the militancy or anyone else's take but for own sake we had to correct

meaning of the mistakes that we made in the past and the last ten years we have started the journey of corrected them rather quickly now i think in some ways this incident perhaps gives the world an opportunity to be able to look slightly more deeply. into what pakistan is today and not to judge pakistan by what it was during many many past three genes which were not democratic and them have speaking about this change pakistan the indian prime minister when he was. responding to this just share of goodwill on the part of your country at the release of the pilot sad in a pretty straightforward and i would even say threatening way that this was this whole skirmish on the border was just a training practice and that quote the real thing is yet to come is there any point beyond which pakistan will not be able to maintain its conciliatory post chair look pakistan as

a policy not by accident did two things ok pakistan did not remain conciliatory to the extent of allowing india into its international borders its territory and exit without there being a little you should be retaliated because we had a responsibility to protect ourselves a little bit you also sought to deescalate would they be a point when you will be much less motivated to do that this is exactly what i'm telling you so we let them know that if you can do military adventurism we can also do it on the side no i am very very concerned about the prime minister who can first of all use that type of language about talking about. you know military adventurism in the way that this was a pilot project you will see what will happen we will get into your houses who are those who took him to get into anyone's says international borders the security council doesn't the un charter doesn't international law doesn't so what my my reaction to your specific question is that if there is result to military

adventurism i think all of pakistan stands united behind its armed forces and i think our armed forces if anything have displayed that they don't need to make stories about what they've achieved but be able to actually achieve did we do any just. being on putting two five five two pilots you know to be in stone of capturing the pilot we actually turned the pilot into you and forgot to celebrate i won't buy that would actually we don't that mean simply for that reason because we did not want to create this war hysteria you know we sent it by lit within forty eight august back in to indian territory i think this is the difference in approach is that the two countries have it with you on the difference in their approaches but i think they were the kind of world that they believe in is not always in compliance with international law or even the african norms i mean there are a number of countries in the world that allow themselves the right to strike targets in somebody else's territory israel would be why the united states would be

and the other if india precedes with these kind of approach in india is a much much stronger state than yours i'm asking you not as. a social commentator but as somebody who used to be in charge of these very very important decisions how much will be too much for pakistan because there's always a limit to everything in my country and you know from its recent experience you can see that sometimes when you are being pushed too strongly you will retaliate and respond and sometimes that responsibility not to somebody else's liking first of four so far i think india being militarily much stronger holds of course it is a much bigger country and it spends far much far far far more than pakistan don does on its military much as international opinion completely in a different sort of direction ok so simple the simple answer to your not so simple question is that pakistan will not be in the military adventurism into its

sovereign dead tree if that happens pakistan has not only the right but the responsibility these understand this you have the responsibility to react all of pakistan stands as one the parliament has made exactly the scene. you. this given the same direction in its resolution the national security council says exactly the same thing in its meetings with the executive the parliament and the people of the pakistan stand behind the armed forces because armed forces of popular have now acted very very responsibly and we know this isn't this is the united nations against belligerence i can assure you this episode has put pakistan i think strongly bonet pakistan together and i think it's probably too many pakistanis that pakistan stands together as a united front pakistan is a far stronger an issue and it's much bigger an issue that we're talking about one of the most militarized regions in the world with a very very high security presence and i think it's a valid question how would

a young local man and we're talking about a man in his twenty's who is believed to be this initial suicide bomb attack how would he be able to source seven hundred fifty pounds of explosives to carry it out one that being the interest of pakistan to find out and don't you think that your country should be perhaps a little bit more forthcoming in offering its assistance to india to deal with this major terrorist issue in the indian controlled kashmir look i think we have been more than forthcoming to the extent that the indian media and indian politicians have used it as pakistan coming to its knees wanting to negotiate asking us over evil help but they will actually not so this is all a narrative shipping and i think pakistan has said at every forum from every level that peace we would like to assist you in this give us some credible evidence we would like to move with you we want to fight not to fight terrorism we want to

discuss terrorism with you because we all have different versions of who is terrorist and who isn't right so look on this particular incident this particular incident the intelligence that one has heard so far and i'm not in government i don't have access to. intelligence percy but from what i have heard from credible sources is that the mood in kashmir because of what you can only quote. and really high handed behavior when major listen then you would say i'm going too much into details if a major of the military of india puts a fish meat in front of his jeep and takes him out and allows him to be stoned and he becomes a discreet it man this is telling you what india has done in that country in that region if there is anyone within that area to a pakistan who has assisted who has help we are not supportive of anyone who assists while it's anywhere be it inside our borders or outside that's a change pakistan that the world is perhaps taking too long to accept because you

are judging us by a few this repetition the not being able to understand that in the last ten fifteen years pakistan has changed direction and pakistan is credibly strong live with monthly falling trying to completely did. you know the minute extremism from all parts of our society now let me ask you one now one more question about an important player in the region which is the united states i've heard some acts where it's claimed that this indian pakistani issue didn't dissolve on its own that the champ administration in gauged in some quote quiet diplomacy behind the scenes which with this white house is hard to believe both when it comes to the word quiet and when it comes to the war diplomacy what are you hearing in islamabad is that true ok so again i need to remind you i'm not in government so i do not know exactly what and where but from what i know and from what i see starting from

president i'm calling it a calling attractive news coming in from the subcontinent after this conflict you know after this crisis erupted which is obviously indication that the americans were playing a role and then he went on to also say that we are. trying to speak to both parties and we are hearing attractive news thought he was obviously talking about american role in trying to diffuse the situation beyond that also we also hear that sixty pompey are also played a role so look when two nuclear stand eyeball to eyeball then of course the world would choose to try and deescalate the situation i thought the world could have chosen to do it earlier we should not have even reached this point but it's important that we understand that we have been very restrained we have been constrained we have been very very careful and all of that but. with a country as large and as military militarily sort of robust or

or let's say because i don't know about this is that hasn't shown much but we're lindo as india to be as aggressive and as belligerent in this mindset coming all the way up from the prime minister to the smallest media house in india and a meeting to the rest of the population is a very dangerous trend and i am adam harvey e.s.e. as you've been trying to say throughout this interview countries change pakistan has changed significantly so can india not only here for the worse but also for the better so let's hope that they may elections perhaps a bill and make it a little bit last belligerent but we have to leave it there it's always a pleasure talking to you thank you very much for being so generous with the interim budget to be bankers our viewers to keep this conversation going on our social media pages and i hope to see you again same place same time here on worlds apart.

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