it's interesting that you point that out because we've been saying this for the last many years that pakistan has changed by the sun is changing for the better getting out of extremism which we had unfortunately found ourselves and we lived in because of you know the historical baggage of the one war and becoming a more great progressive society i think the democratic regimes the last two democratic regimes had much to do with it whereas at the same time we see india going deeper and deeper into this ultra nationalist extremist almost in the state non-secular and all thanks to mr moody who has not been the treated his vision into the fabric of indian society i think this crisis is unfortunate as it was exposed the change pakistan worse is the change to india and if i were the world i would be very scared of what i see in india right now for both leaders it was definitely an opportunity to exercise leadership and they chose very different strategists one of

them chose to flex muscles the other one i thought relied more on his weights do you think that's more reflective of the personality of the two leaders mr modi and mr han or is it indeed more long term reflective of the country's national standing and national post churn. personalities certainly have a role to play i think over here more than just a const personalities mr moody's personality which has had a rule to play in what india has become in the last five years i've been screaming at the top of my lungs for the us by years that india is being let that literally it's playing with fire and it will not be able to put this genie of extremism back in the bottle because once you allow people to become so extremist in this thought process in their action in their reaction then that becomes you so india is no more the secular shining rising india that we thought was possible and the prime minster were crimes from the moment and it's a very different india and pakistan i think the process of the. reintroduction of

democracy and the political parties maturing has had a huge role to play in that and i think you saw the parliament didn't reacted to this crisis it was restrained it was considered it was debated the prime minister supremacy confound it very easy to take this posturing which was what the parliament and the people of pakistan wanted so it's actually a reflection of changing society behavior and changing national priorities for both countries it's us visible to people like you. know perhaps from this incident while i met him what is also visible to people like myself is that india is a democracy it is facing a major parliamentary election in may which may explain why prime minister modi may be more motivated to burnish his strongman image i've also heard people say that this could be something more long term this could be a change in india

a military strategy in becoming more assertive what do you think is more likely do you think it's mostly political or do you think it's indeed strategic. look i think it's a bit of both to care because. in a rather stunned really election lost are we in the woman incident rate which is bringing nationalism and the military right in the middle of politics ok that's one secondly again people like myself have been observing this since perhaps in the moment since time where the deep establishment in india is becoming more and more powerful i remember the time when they wanted to solve the search in a dispute and promised a moment singh was very keen to do so also but was held back by what i can call the deep establishment in the india so in some ways you know i even tweeted about it you see india and pakistan fall into very different trajectories we are moving a v. from extremism into a more great progressive hopefully a developing society and india is moving to words a very very belligerent aggressive extremist india and i was just

a little bit perhaps disagree with you when you see this is only election related because the lynching of people the whole process of using we reap and billett guns a state policy into smear and really very aggressive behavior towards muslims where they were in mumbai your push me or do you or anybody else this started as soon as by mr moody came into power well not that hard the pakistani government is also accused of major human rights abuses on its own territory so let's not paint it black and white but i'm more interested in the political angle of this whole skirmish because when the security and the sovereignty of a state i directly engage there is always pressure on latest to respond in a mass killer and symmachus way in order not to look weak and yet prime minister han went out of his way to stay conciliatory do you think his response where i've

been the same if he like his indian counterpart we're facing an important election no this is what you. we really need to understand about pakistan pakistan has changed on that ground pakistan knew mostly among to its nationals against any one of its neighbors as a good state policy right this is where pakistan is very different than we then india right now because i think we've learned our lessons from history and therefore we don't wish this upon india also because in this region this region has suffered for far too long because of this ongoing conflict between these two giants in the region you know if you look at any progress that the streets and could potentially have made we've lost out ok i think we need to fight wars against poverty against giving education to our people giving help opportunities giving economic opportunities it's really sad if in the neighborhood as large as india move towards this extremist belligerent aggressive mission because it doesn't do any good to any of its neighbors and least of all pakistan well i agree with you

that the indian response was quite extraordinary because there were suicide attacks before but it was the first time that indian fighter jets crossed deep into pakistan since i think the and nine hundred seventy one india pakistan war how much of a shoghi thing those indian air raids were to the pakistani political leadership you know interestingly i think with prime minister mu the being in power for the last eight years in india we in pakistan were prepared for anything which is unreasonable which could be avoid grubber and close to the election coming in march and we were we were quite mindful of the fact that any incident will be perhaps manufactured or created i'm not pointing any fingers over there but it will be used as an excuse to do something very irresponsible because the extent of the responsibility of this act and then the extent of the of the narrative shipping and

the lies which have now been exposed internationally it has actually damaged india's credibility far more than the length and breadth of this. elections so very responsible people in india perhaps now we can up to that realization and you know very responsible voices from india also pointing out that we need to stop looking towards pakistan for indigenous problems because what has happened in push me the reaction of the kashmiri people is because of the very strong state terrorism or aggression which has been. pointed towards them in the last five years now i don't want to go into a blame game right i don't want to see you do this we do that i want to and for the world we need to really come to the negotiating table and really have uninterrupted and uninterrupted build i know because dialogue is the only we to really pick of conflict long term this country and the relation of two nuclear states whose purpose is it serving it serves no one it just creates

a lot of negativity within the region and keeps the region and these two countries from going forward while again the one version that i heard in the pakistani and international media who is interested serving it at least initially were intended to serve the interest of their ruling party in india it's too early to say conclusively of this point of time but do you think this incident will end up helping mr modi's electoral chances or g thing it will and hurting him look as our route which is report recently which clearly says that his. numbers are getting better right after this rate and you see him in the electioneering process really using this as. a powerful tool i would be very the never know how elections turn out and we never know how politics play out because now in the last two three days you see some sanity emerging by no means

about the killing three hundred people in pakistan when they did those raids have been completely debunked by international media and in. national organizations so it's really going to be anyone's game but obviously mr grimes to move the i can also see how it will assist him because in the last five years he's made a very ultra nationalist. ultra extremist sort of narrative shipping in india has now almost become very ingrained it's dangerous for india as it. is dangerous for pakistan now you mentioned before the role of the media and how differently they cheer countries in gauge the media because india almost immediate pakistan and the country invited media over to the side of the strikes to undermine the indian damage claims i wonder if this is perhaps an eel area of foreign policy or of diplomacy for pakistan in gauging the international

public opinion much more practically and by the use of not only traditional but also social media you know i don't think it's about public opinion and i don't think it's about pakistan was able to. do a great job at at a p.r. handling i don't think that you're handling it says this i think this is a changing reality excesses and i think pakistan was just able to engage of both the world through its changing reality and i think the importance of the state in the world depends on its credibility right now the credibility of india through this whole crisis and how they managed it has actually been reduced to a very very low numbers simply for the past that every claim that was made by the establishment by the military by the indian politicians by the indian media has actually been proven to be incorrect satellite imagery has proven the to be incorrect though everything that pakistan was seeing could be proven by exposing

them to be a little on the ground and therefore pakistan was match more keen to engage with the national media and international media because what it was seeing could be corrupt. by facts on the ground now this is a very dangerous situation because if a country feels if the people who are in power in that particular country in india for instance feel that they can for their own people into this ultra nationalistic you know jingoistic supposed lies and multiplies the many times then what are you turning your population into and how are you expecting them to react to a neighbor like pakistan because then everything that happens in india is immediately put on pakistan short or this is a dangerous dangerous trend and for a country as though it is india aspiring to be a security council member to lose its credibility this much and to be using lies and manufactured events both in front of international for forget the media international clearance and its own people i think it's very very sad and i don't think this plays on with for anyone even pakistan should not be happy by india

which is choosing to exit in such a manner we don't want to embarrass them while madame hard we have to take a short break now but we will be back in just a few moments. join me every thursday on the alex simon shill and i'll be speaking to guest of the world of politics sports business i'm show business i'll see you that. is absolutely no doubt that pakistan has said a certain crude proven track record off sponsoring terrorism influence on things so this should evidence of that we have not received any evidence then we also are

going to blame then we are for investigation of any kind we have more heard anything about. this is is a stick from the water bottle phone in the stomach of the fish the brand is sponsor of the coca-cola company which sells millions of bottles of soda every day the idea was that let's tell consumers they're the bad ones they're the litter bugs are throwing this away industry should be blamed for all of this waste the company has long promised to reuse the plastic. stickle capsules excuse. that seems cool sets their classes to seek a course the only and only thing you can lose at a special projects funded. online your best bet is the end of a footy team but for now the mountains of waste only grow.

up and someone. bought a aquatic. condoms. for your. focus on the. form of fair and i don't still think i want to justify. something i thought it was a couple of ohio. usually you just got the. case on. for you because i think you know. because you. are from your first good thing matthew cordle i know that you're going to be here. for a while and it'll be vital. to

. welcome back to worlds apart a bit here and that robot madame har while the current episode seems to be diffuse the initial premise for the attacks remains that it is militant groups which india considers terrorists which the united nations considers terrorists operating in a pakistani territory do you think that could lead to the tensions flaring up again in the future look i hope the initial premise as it existed ten years back has moved a long long way and you might have the luxury to be able to ignore that i am fortunate do not have the luxury to simply for the reason that pakistan the last ten years has for seventy thousand of its citizens trying to find these very

militant groups that the world means we have done nothing about pakistan has lost seven thousand to eight thousand soldiers paramilitary forces fighting these very militant groups scoots now pakistan like india the state cannot do everything at the same time right now the premise of this particular attack being manufactured or planned or emanating from pakistani soil is entirely incorrect and it has almost been proven to be incorrect. to use anything that happens indigenously because of state policy because of state terrorism in kashmir as a tool to whip up a stand it's obviously not fashionable or allowed or will hold because eventually all of us have to look internally pakistan's a country today by the way which is a change country we are all confident enough to look internally at the fault lines that we had that we're trying to protect we're trying to protect minorities better we try to protect the i.d.p.'s the people who were displaced because of military

action against militant groups in the fatah region which is now. and everywhere else and the fabric of our society has suffered because of that so this is to be told for a country which has suffered so much and frankly speaking not suffered for your sake or for the militancy or anyone else to think but for own we have started the journey of protected them rather quickly now i think in some ways this incident perhaps gives the world an opportunity to be able to look slightly more deeply. into what pakistan is today and not to judge pakistan by what it was during many many past three genes which were not democratic and then have speaking about this change pakistan dainton prime minister when he was. responding to this just share of goodwill on the part of your country at the release of the pilot sat in our previous straightforward and i would even say threatening way that this was this whole skirmish on the border was just

a training practice and that quote the real thing is yet to come is there any point beyond which pakistan will not be able to maintain its conciliatory post ciarán look pakistan as a policy not by accident did two things ok but the son did not remain conciliatory to the extent of allowing india to enter its international borders its territory and exit without being a little you should be retaliated because we had the responsibility to protect ourselves a little bit you also sought to deescalate would be a point when you will be much less motivated to do that this is exactly what i'm telling you so we'll let them nor that if you can do military adventurism we can also do it on the side no i am very very concerned about the prime minister who can first of all use that type of language about talking about. you know military adventurism in the way that this was a pilot project you will see what will happen even get into your houses who are

those who took him to get into anyone's it's his international borders the security council doesn't the un charter doesn't international law doesn't so what my my reaction to your specific question is that if there is result to military adventurism i think all of pakistan stands united behind its armed forces and i think our armed forces if anything have displayed that they don't need to make stories about what they've achieved but be able to actually achieve did we do any just. being on putting two five five two pilots you know fight to be in stone of capturing the pilot we actually turned the pilot into you and forgot to celebrate i want by that we don't that mean simply for the reason because we did not want to create this war hysteria you know we sent it by lit within forty eight august back in to indian territory i think this is the difference in approach is that the two countries have with you on the difference in their approaches but i think they were the kind of world that they believe in is not always in compliance with

international law or even the african norms i mean there are a number of countries in the world that allow themselves the right to strike targets in somebody else's territory israel would be while the united states would be and the other if india precedes with this kind of approach in india is a much much stronger state than yours i'm asking you not as a social commentator but as somebody who used to be in charge of these very very important decisions how much will be too much for pakistan because there's always a limit to everything in my country and you know from its recent experience you can see that sometimes when you are being pushed too strongly you will retaliate and respond then sometimes that responsibility not to somebody else's liking first of four so far i think india being militarily but strongholds of course it is a much bigger country and it spends far much far far far more than pakistan does on

its military much as international opinion completely in a different sort of direction because a simple the simple answer to your not so simple question is that pakistan will not be in the military adventure but the responsibility piece understand is you have the responsibility to react all of pakistan stands as one the parliament has made exactly the scene. given the same direction in its resolution the national security council. says exactly the same thing in its meetings with the executive the parliament and the people of the pakistan stand behind the armed forces because armed forces of papa have now acted very very responsibly and we know this isn't this is the united nations against belligerence i can assure you this episode has put pakistan i think strongly bonet pakistan together and i think it's probably too many pakistanis that pakistan stands together as a united front pakistan is

a far stronger an issue and then it's much bigger an issue that we're talking about it's a valid question how would a young local man and we're talking about a man in his twenty's who is believed to be this initial suicide bomb attack how would he be able to source seven hundred fifty pounds of explosives carried out one that be in the interest of pakistan to find out and don't you think that your country should be perhaps a little bit more forthcoming in offering its assistance to india to deal with this major terrorist issue in the indian controlled kashmir look i think we have been more than forthcoming to the extent that the indian media and indian politicians have used it as pakistan coming to its knees wanting to negotiate asking us over evil help but they will actually not so this is all a narrative shipping and i think pakistan has said at every forum from every level that peace we would like to assist you in this give us some credible evidence we

would like to move with you we want to fight not to fight terrorism we want to discuss terrorism with you because we all have different versions of who is a state terrorist and who isn't right so look on this particular incident this particular incident the intelligence that one has heard so far and i'm not in government i don't have access to an intelligence percy but from what i have heard from credible sources is that the mood in kashmir because of what you can only close did. and really high handed behavior when major listen then you would say i'm going too much into details if a major of the military of india puts a fish meat in front of his jeep and takes him out and allows him to be stoned and he becomes a decree to men this is telling you what india has done in that country in that region if there is anyone within that area to a pakistan who has assisted who has help we are not supportive of anyone who assists while it's anywhere be it inside our borders or outside that's

a change parties stand that the world is perhaps taking too long to accept because you are judging us by a previous repetition the not being able to understand that in the last ten fifteen years pakistan has changed direction and pakistan is credibly strong you know human it extremism from all parts of our society now let me ask you one now one more question about an important player in the region which is the united states i have heard some x. parents claim that this indian pakistani issue didn't dissolve on its own that the trump administration in gauged in some quote quiet diplomacy behind the scenes which with this white house is hard to believe both when it comes to the word quiet and when it comes to the war diplomacy i need to remind you i am not in government so i do not know exactly what and where but from what i know and from what i see starting from president from calling it a calling attractive news coming in from the start continent after this conflict

you know after this crisis erupted which is obviously indication that the americans were playing a role and then he went on to also say that we are trying to speak to both parties and we are hearing attractive news story was of the city of talking about american role in trying to diffuse the situation beyond that also we also hear that sixty promptly are also played a role so look when two nuclear stand eyeball to eyeball then of course the world would. choose to try and deescalate the situation i thought the world could have chosen to do it earlier we should not have even reached this point but it's important that we understand that we have been varied history we have been constrained we have been very very careful and all of that but. with a country as large and as military a military really sort of. or or

a village let's say because i don't know about this is that hasn't shown much but. as india to be as aggressive and as belligerent in this mindset coming all the way up from the prime minister to the smallest media house in india and i mean eating to the rest of the population is a very dangerous trend and i made them high e.s.c.'s even trying to say throughout this interview countries change pakistan has changed significantly so can india not only here for the worse but also for the better so let's hope that they may elections perhaps bill and make it a little bit last a bit later on but we have to leave it there it's always a pleasure talking to you thank you very much for being so generous with your time as you to do that thank urge our viewers to keep this conversation going in our social media pages and hope to see you again same place same time here on worlds apart.

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