so the lamp becomes a smart lamp and then all of a sudden very quickly all these objects that have a little bit of microprocessor power in them are now reading out other objects and the other objects that are don't have this good the capability to do that. they are we going to so your node a barcode we know radio frequency identification we know q.r. codes we know now if you had communication that in your phone you put your phone to a cure or code to your code as a u.r.l. embed it now run back in two thousand and eleven you call author in manifest and we called on citizens to we claim the politics of technology and engage more actively in regulating these new digital environment eighty years on do you think now we are any closer to the idea of. every citizen having an input in how this

environment is run i think we should have a new should be like that let us in the case is not the case is not i mean little further away from from with than we were eight years ago depends on where you are on the planet sort of also because. i think so the first thing to have to understand and we all know like we're all simple people are we have our issues we have our problems and you like things to work and they're all working in so very convenient and this all happening so it's very difficult to zoom out and have this bigger picture of what is actually happening and do i like what is happening especially in again because it's so far so you have space and that's this social question here because in any kind of politics you need participants who have a basic level of competence in order to participate if we take consumers as these political base and you compare them to political base do you think in the average they have enough knowledge and skill to you even have an informed opinion a lot

a long fight for it know of the moment no notice or will they ever have it because you know that these are industry standard now is to produce a product that is essentially foolproof you know that requires the minimum cognitive capacity from users so this is this is exactly what's happening and so in the same year that i set up the internet of things council we set up the internet of things day so why. are you today dot org and so people can the subscriber on offense and this last thing last year we had about seventy this year already have twenty a lot of africa africa is getting online and a lot of things are happening sort of there. and these are this is exactly intended to create some kind of public debate and what i'm trying to do is basically doing two things so creating this awareness. among people but also creating a menace awareness among policymakers that. are you keeping up with the you with

the pace of progress because technology changes not by the date changes by the hour these changes sort of basically what changes is a kind of a set of it's a bit of noise as gadgets and services that are changing very fast but the drivers behind them are at the moment still pretty stable so the first thing the first level that sort of happened in this internet was that it started to create data. and the data it created was actually determined by the protocol so it's not a coincidence that that the data layers are now in silicon valley because it all came out of sort of that region so what we see is that governor like google facebook amazon and poll they are now sitting on most data in the world and which is let's say one surveillance capitalist model that we have no and the the other model that we have which is basically

a national bubble steiner has built. is being built because the last chinese government had nine engineers scientists out of twelve politicians and of understood very early that if they don't control this new level of data they may control the glass and you won the ordinary citizens who use their coffee machines in the fringes to confront both of these huge bubbles both the corporate one and the state like on the standard for the four for a sort of people also like me took me twenty years to sort of understand sort of this so i can on the whole is no way you can get this immediately but that's why is more important this moment in time to get to the policy americans to get to the politicians and to get to the people who are making decisions many of the companies you mention facebook google etc they all claim to espouse the same values the same concerns that you have social justice official government

a quality etc why can't they be fully trusted chaperoning this new world well i think this is to reasons one reason is that i don't trust the founders i mean mark zuckerberg call this first four uses don't mean so we all know this bill gates closed down open source development of word pad with his letter to the open source community the whole point about these these big companies is that. they should not be allowed in the hands of individuals or media mortal they will die and this will go to the kids and the nephew these are nephews of britain and so this is impossible again it's the that the chinese engineers because the politicians are engine is they understood very quickly so they realised something has to be done but the rest of the world was taken caught off guard it's like a new war and all of a sudden somebody comes with a new definition of war and before you actually know it and this is what has happened now speaking about governments you mentioned the chinese government but i think the american that government is also very active in this regard that as is

the russian government by the way i know that you. before that if the internet of things is fully developed there would be no need for governments as we know it right now do you think people in power will find out prospecting entice thing in let's hear realised at vision limited for that in dicey. but i think the they are smart enough to be realistic so what we are facing now both in europe and russia and any other system that is not able to protect its own citizens by hosting its own data on platforms is the moment now where the ai is hitting the big data creating new entities building new formats creating new services so the people who are able to do this is either amazon doing it and let's say in china where you can run a i own by do out this leap is of the same magnitude of the internet itself

if you miss out on that level of ai if you miss out on this next level you basically have no other choice but to live as let's say seven hundred eight hundred million people in russia and in europe in no return no to quote the russian president this program to open but he actually said that. the people or the corporations the entities that will muster the ai go over all the world so essentially here agree with him so will we can have a good discussion than because that because then he would also realize and this is why it's not not strange to talk like this that he will also realize that he has to build his own system and his own system doesn't mean he doesn't doesn't mean sovereignty by having doing something against the web or closing things down is a positive way of building a new system and this is what we tried to do in europe where i'm also in the. in

the in the next generation internet program where. we have ideas to build a five hundred millions own to build our own bubble to keep our own data secure it's a very interesting topic because right now in russia we have this huge controversy surrounding the so-called sovereign internet and the idea if you are to believe the authorities is not to close anything down but to create your own the app capacity in case our friends across the ocean decide to pull apply when asked so that you have that internet opera ball the time i was saying that it's a reasonable idea that's very reasonable i do and so and with there's a technical layer that's capable of doing it which is five g. you have vertical applications so you can go through the internet you can go to the wearables or the homes of the guards of the city but this is not something that should be this is something that we should discuss and debate with all of us so building such a system should have a lot of people around the table so they can should be at that they will and the

government should be at the ball in the meetings that i run in holland the last meeting we did and so them we have the chief of police police innovation and the hackers the real ones at the table because they have the same goal to build a good public infrastructure well i have to say that. no there yet in russia even though we have freedom no dribble that's right well unfortunately we can bring them in because the whole point is because we know that we don't want to world in which individuals can run companies of billions and the they are not accountable we also know that the old style politicians that want to control everything are also no longer productive this is not happening because we have a generation of millennial under thirty five that are way more knowledgeable than any other guy including me over thirty five so we should bring them into the discussion have them run the system and this isn't going to conversation that we're

having also with politicians. if they want to run things into the ground and create breakdown between now and five or ten or fifteen is everybody continues like this and will surely have that so this is that's that's what we know for sure but let us take a very short break now but we'll be back in just a few moments stay tuned. i max kaiser one more of my guide to financial survival this is. a device used by professional scallywags to earn money. that's right these hedge funds are simply not accountable. to them. totally destabilize the global economy

in a to protect yourself and get informed watch guys. during the great depression which i'm old enough to remember there was most of my family were unemployed. there wasn't it was bed much worse objective listen today but there was an expectation of the things were going to get better. there was a real sense of hopefulness there isn't today today's america was shaped by the turn principles of concentration of wealth and power. reduced democracy attack solo down engineer elections manufacture consent and other principles according to no on. one set of rules for the rich ops etc. that's what happens when you put her into the. narrows of will which

is dedicated to increasing power for chills just as you'd expect one of the most influential intellectuals of our time speaks about the modern civilization of america. with the old make this manufactured sentenced to public wealth. when the ruling classes protect themselves. with the final. lifts only the one percent. we can all middle of the room.

welcome back to worlds apart before on kronenbourg the founder of the internet of things counsel robert just before the break we were talking about russia and how governments in this country and others may be thinking in the dated ways and we also have a major digital power in china which when it comes to its political system is often criticized as being elevated and authoritarian and yet it is also at the forefront of establishing the kind of future that you often advocate for. what's good and what's bad about how china approaches it well i think that's a good question and it's also very difficult to answer because i think they they have the only possible answer in this at this moment with the internet now in the world and the world wide web and this internet of things it's really like

a new sort of tools that were working in the analog world and no longer working and people are feeling that so in the companies companies are real are realizing if they want to do things on their own it's not going to work they need to build be a large ecosystems and they need to share and do a lot of b two b. and determine issues for people to actually make their products in this internet of things is is bringing a lot of transparency in the world is showing the overhead and it's showing how how crazy a lot of the things were tuned to indicators of let's say much zero six eagle greed and all of these indicators and the now these are going to going away so if you look at the millennium. you won't you will not impress a twenty year old by driving up in the big beemer sort of sort of if you don't have a good going to a dance where that millennial and. me taking you back to china at this concept is sometimes the chinese success at developing it is sometimes

presented in pretty dark ways as a means to your thora tarion control do you think that's justified i don't think there's justified because the time is sort of government again being engineers the way people are thinking about it and china we have to remember it had an emperor until nine hundred twelve the first emperor two thousand two hundred seventy eight b.c. started a population register so in holland we have the population register like seventy nine hundred so first we have to understand that the whole notion of bureaucracy and population management and sort of like is very common sort of it's just more exposed all of a sudden because of because of this internet of things and because of the wisdom of the earth as when jabo sort of java called it now this does not only control reasons for having this system so we have reputation management of people which is

called the social presently comforts of life and this is also a way of making people's lives better well is china's also bringing the last one hundred million people out of poverty so again they're doing extremely good work on recycling on circular economy on renewable energy so it is a really a sane person in the world who would like to see china break no one to ten thousand mafia kingdoms i don't think so western observers are nervous about these developments in itself because of the i think because of the mix of technology and what they perceive as authoritarianism but i want to ask you the question about western democracies because if it is it's western to mock. is that it chasing people like edward snowden and julian assange it's western security agencies that are pretty intimately call parading with big tech giants. are you sure that people who run democracies would want that own populations to reclaim the politics of

technology as you've been calling for no no no no no to me basically all these systems are a part of of the two set that we had sort of before the before the internet i would not go at the moment going to vote once every four years for a political party that's being paid by the by the model so they're all lobbyists of the same model to be the marketing system the model democracy is something totally different to me doesn't exist anywhere on the planet at this moment there's this massive unrest throughout the world and we see that we see it in from to see it everywhere people feel that they're not reprieves ended and this is logical because now we have the tools to be represented so if i have these tools on my phone if i'm better informed than the person i'm supposed to vote for to represent me for four years in the. this is a this is a model that's obsolete we should really think about new models and for that. we

have no other choice but to give everyone a second chance a little bit also are our politicians and the people in power we should at least give them one chance to. sort of sit across the table and then was ok we'll do this together. i wanted to ask you a question about the has still a t on the internet because when i read your writings the kind of future your project is very very positive but i think our. digital reality is very very hostile i work for the channel that has to invest a lot a lot of resources into building its cyber defenses because of relenting cyber attacks and i know that's also a reality for many russian state institutions and i guess in situations not only in russia do you think this kind of very efficient very neutral sometimes very friendly world that you want to leave in could sustain the current cyber tensions

that are happening all around the world well not on this political but then again the internet was not built for security so we have to take it to a different level and we have to take the new value that is five g. level where you can embed security where you where you sort of fade out t.c.p. ip where you basically feed out the internet so the internet as a protocol be is something is historical is is not meant to last a thousand years or form it was a great protocol they have but we called it a year so it may or may have been the only and then maybe here sort of like the ship maybe years of this is what that they showed us look what they've been doing on this planet killing each other and sort of all this nonsense and it said it didn't it didn't stop people from killing people some would even argue that it may have intensified that urge and this is actually a question i want to ask you because. you talked about opening up all the databases. intelligence databases to citizens in order to make the

internet of things fully functioning and yet somebody like me who has reported from syria who has encountered dangerous citizens who are also pretty tech savvy don't you think that you are underestimating human malice and the ability of the nerds and the tech guys to protect us from that human malice absolutely a fully agree but i think that the grain of thinking in the current systems is underestimating human goodness we go to the obsessive growing obsessive compulsive with all of this notion of like security and security but as a group growing obsessive let me give you some figures i think it was last year that the attacks grew by six hundred percent and there are lots of stories about cars and medical devices even baby monitors being hijacked i read

a story about their family in washington are watching. it how it was not injured by a stranger who whispered something of all over the microphone i mean that's not a ground is i mean that it will make you have refused all these devices i'm not i'm not playing them these but we also must be a little bit almost right so i think in two thousand and sixteen or seventeen i don't have the figures totally. for. takings cost about eight billion in financial trouble security in the street invested nine billion in and virus and behaving it's an industry it's an industry so i mean the people hacking i'm not going to say the people who actually want to tell you who are going to agree or frisk because i'm saying is that we have to be one of the comforts of that i'm saying also. we have to move away from the internet as a protocol that is in principle fully in secure so again security is an industry

and the security has all they need to expose the fears and all the hacking devices so that people get frayed and they get good protection and we have to come up with a new infrastructure and five g. and some other things in the blocks in all these things sort of these are actually things that come up for a reason so i think there are we have some tools but this is very important to start thinking positively about the new tools to build a new system while we're thinking about new tools and innovation. became unsightly stays basically the same do you think it can handle that degree of openness that you're advocating for because you're essentially such as the in the future everybody should be able to you track your own live moments if we want and i mean if i think about my own life i don't one day when you know my closest friends or family members to track all of that know do you think people can survive that kind

of scrutiny and transparency maybe we can't but maybe the millennial scale and the next generation of well i guess it doesn't carry into your point because of the i jancee you know the i just then aeration a house after the millennial is now the rays of things i.v. and suicide among them you know the president so clearly they're not dealing well with that no because they're also not educated nobody's telling them what is happening right so. yesterday with the students i was telling them about a story about at the mit which koos from john wyndham so here's a story it's in the fifty's a small village and all of a sudden all the women are pregnant and and sort of the guys are getting crazy to start hitting everybody but sort of at the end the sort of the side let's do it because the nobody knows what's so good the kids are being born and they're beautiful and there's a. beautiful boys and beautiful girls and this one philosopher in the back in the village and he's looking at the kids and he's realizing something strange is

happening because of one boy learn something the other one knows it too and if one girl learned something the other once they have it immediately so he begins to think that ella benteke but his generation the stand alone generation he cannot deal with this philip attic kids so in the end of the book he takes a truck full of explosives and blows them up so i always feel to the millennial if i talk to them unfortunately we cannot blow you all up because or a bit too little. and that's when they get they can if they break a little bit because they realize. they've been born into this bubble and when they cook everything is ok as long as they're on the devices when they close down the devices they look at this world build on totally different indicators and they cannot think they just want to go there because it's just too big you know what makes you believe that their children will be more prepared for this new reality than they are i mean if you believe in evolution this is unlikely to happen well

there you have me it's a it's a good point i'm very sort of positive about the climate change activists that are now sort of in the in all across the world so they're like fifteen sixteen seventeen so that generation unlike the millennial who will be confused for the rest of their lives and they have to learn to live with it the younger generation there seem to to be to manage their devices quite more intuitively and also say. analogs they sort of stay grounded the point is we've we've all we were all caught off guard and now we know a little bit more so we have to have stories for the all the people like me in charge they have to step down they have to have to get they have to go they have to hand it to the. and they have to prepare and that's the ones growing up in this food connectivity and they themselves know nothing nothing nothing but at the

moment and this is really key and this is happening as we speak and this is also the discussion this is the reason why for the first time we saw people in microsoft in google and apple protesting. and this is because of the face recognition software that's also running on lots of places and in china since times actually doing this and that there's companies that are also planning to sell to the pentagon well a roman center as an aging topic i'm sure we could have talked for hours but we have to leave it there thank you very much for being with and thank you very much thank you very much our viewers to keep this conversation going in our social media pages and hope to see you again same place same time here on worlds apart.

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five percent of global wealth he longs to be ultra rich eight point six percent of the world market goes thirty percent some with one hundred five hundred three first circuit first second and fifth when he rose to twenty thousand dollars. china's building two point one billion dollars a i industrial park but don't let the numbers over. the only number you need to remember in one one business showed you know board the mid one and only boom but. just. gotta live.

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