welcome to worlds apart of twenty years ago nato launched its first military operation without the approval of the un security council the tally with bombing off yugoslavia was celebrated as a churning point in the history of warfare proving that a conflict can be won by air power alone if you take it on does it still seem like a victory all to discuss that i'm now joined by. professor of political sciences at the university of belgrade professor good to talk to you thank you very much for your time. first of all let me ask you what do you remember of that day march twenty fourth nine thousand nine hundred nine where warrior when the

bombs started falling on the yugoslavia i was in my place in belgrade and the bombing started. and the fourth of march. expected that because. we have a process was finished with. the preparation for the war. were very frightened. by the government and by media so we did expect that. to situation but you said a moment ago that you saw it coming and yet i read somewhere that because of the tide state control over the media in the weeks prior to the offensive very few ordinary people expected to belonging or that it would be as massive as it was most of the people hold that diplomatic deal with be made was it perhaps because you

were a part of the government that you were better informed people at large. as a matter of fact it is a difference between. believing the. bombing. probably because i mean rationally speaking nobody expected by the end of the twentieth century but for everybody her. objections best in countries particularly neat and usa i could have spent expect this scenario those aires did bring slobodan milosevic into compliance he did what the west wanted and withdrew all the forces from costa but obviously at a very huge cost around five hundred people killed many thousands injured and norma's damage to the infrastructure looking back to do you think the west could

have achieved its objective without such some would argue disproportionate show of force. in terms of military action the western. is the not. objective because. army was not actually removed from your orders to the. agreement but it was not so. damaged as nato forces expected in terms of political. serbia should accept. for forty four but it was not for the for defeat but something i would say positive zero point from which serbia yugoslavia enough of the rest. and defined international international position reserving cost of an indoor here

it is well documented at this point that the campaign was initially designed to destroy the yugoslav air defenses and high value military targets but it went far far beyond that heating a television station the chinese embassy many other public buildings even a passenger train that was crossing a bridge at that time how do you explain this mission creep and was it a mission creep as opposed to a deliberate intimidation. as a matter of fact it was a real war war without roofs. because the military objectives were not to do the only one i mean nato particularly in the second part of the war plan to save the last month and back to civilian objectives bridges for example they destroyed fifty four bridges in serbia and

electricity. equipment and many things. out of which a normal civilian. life for defense so. they tried to make and. collecting i thought it was intuition between the population that in the war cannot be. and. should admit defeat but i think i would say that fortunately for us it was finished by. forty fourth and the decisions of the united nations by the said the same security council and. central me. on the legal action of the nato were moved to work and your legal position of serbia international community now one of the reasons why this was allowed to proceed that

way was because of russia's geopolitical weakness at that time its reliance on the western loans its willingness to remain in the good graces of the west and you know that i hear a lot of people here in moscow talking about how our prime minister at the time trying to explain a round and cancel his visit to the united states but do you think moscow at that time could have done more to prevent what happened in your country. well it is not because of moscow couldn't have been anything. anything important and in crucial in that war i mean moscow and gave some kind of diplomatic. support to serbia and by the end of the war. came back to the process and in moscow came back to the process within this unity council discussion about the new resolution so i was really on loaning the word but as they sent

the b.n. go home the murder was numb better than the beginning. in mind there is a russian and forty four and the reaction of not only russian proposal china and the other countries being a members of the security council and there is a russian which was in favor of for some future sushant of that problem but before that resolution was passed. moscow essentially joined the west in calling for milosevic to surrender and the yugoslav capitulation came later that day i'm talking about june third one thousand nine hundred nine do you think that it was an act of. bravery you know maybe card this on the part of russia . it was very complicated situation and i think russia did what you'd call it but maybe there were more expectation on the serbian sign and russia could

militarily assist to do sabean defense so in that situation. didn't want to surrender and actually she didn't do that she. did what she had to. do defending the country and using the military to defend the country to be in the weapons that they have a pretty backyard in comparison the democrats are but. i mean that. i think it has been lost to wrong for the western countries because they counted in the weeks and not in a month the operation and finally i think. when there are outcomes we should to brace insecurity in security council by the end of june one thousand nine hundred ninety one somehow. all sides.

now are bombing and where milosevich agreeing to allow peacekeepers into casa and him also allowing to transfer governing functions to all of our costs of oil to the un bodies but it would be another ninety years before cost of us independence would be proclaimed and eagerly embrace by the west i know that you sir served as service form and minister for cost of any talk here when do you think serbia lost that province was it in one thousand nine was it in two thousand and eight or was it perhaps later i think the. last who is the possible because there is a still more opportunity to. save. to save the position of serbia in that context. my i think united nine and it did not happen i mean the losing of asa law neither morra. into those that two thousand and

eight says it was a union than a problem ation often the band is a classical case of us a session and you know not that all of it will be a dependence but the steel that also of the international law honor our are more more on the serbian side i think not on notice a russian by forty four but also on just a key final act which guarantees movement on ability of borders and still today it is valid to them because there is a big pressure. to be organized chaos along in order to abandon the organic piece of international law particular of resolution about forty four it means that this is the solution is still valid if you still mean big east still strong weapon in the hands of serbia and many things not all of them but many things the banks of the behaviors are being government of the day but the professor

some are just i'm sure you know that. even if the international law is on the side of serbia international law is very often ignored it is in the interest of the most powerful nations and. i want to bring in the case of crimea here because i'm sure you know that the russians very strongly opposed the idea of course those independence yet they also side the cause of us independence as a case to justify the reunification of crimea back into russia what did you make of it at the don't you think that's perhaps it's a bit cynical on the part of moscow to first be strongly against casillas independence and then use it as a case to support the it's its own policies. these are different things i mean kosovo is a clear situation of do you want to use a session as as i said this session of some people palatial from the. international

legal maze border of the state. criminal case is somehow different because a grim criminal. did not look for it for independence that is the big difference. is just coming back to russia. because it used to be the part of russia. and does not look for international people nice independence always and the other two is because the society that kind is not to be organized by international law and i am aware of that international law is. a soft law or something like that but no real serbia had the proof of its validity because as i said best i'm content is heavily pressured serbian government. it means that this.

mission. very. no independence. rules were changed by saddam international. now i think one thing in common between the case of crimea and the case of costello is that both of them were not only about territorial loss or gain they were about brother geopolitics and the russians made a decision to stand their ground that decision is very costly russia is still paying for that but i think the feeling here in moscow is that serbs were never really ready to defend interests in cost of a quite as strongly that they weren't ready to do much beyond complaining and that they ultimately as you said made the decision to exchange cos a vote for the e.u. prospects is that a fair analysis. no now it is not the case now present now when serbian public opinion there is really men's and women's to deliver

babies. it is. moment the second moment is the ability of european union to accept for a long time and it cannot be the compensation because it will be a unit is not ready to make this kind of compensation so there is no how to say say some trade off for very not between also and european union i mean. the the the right to access and to deliver and also the brain he so it is completely. situation and nobody can guarantee any kind of compensation because of possible nishan of also independence ok well professor some are just me have to take a very short break now but maybe i'll go back in just a few moments statement. from.

our politicians to show to. put themselves on the line to get accepted or rejected. so we want to be present. for some who want to be reached. it's a great to be close with what before three in the morning to be a good deal. of interest is always in the water our. last question. after the previous stage of my career was over everyone wondered what i was going to do next about different clubs one hand it is logical to sort of go from fields where everything is familiar on the. whether i wanted a new challenge and a fresh perspective i'm used to suppressing us all or not.

i'm going to talk about football not be or else you can think i was going to go. by the way what is it that's like here. welcome back to worlds apart this law but on some our church professor of political sciences at the university of belgrade professor before the break we talked about serbia spain full past let's focus on the future and now as we alluded several times during the discussion serbia is now on track of joining the european union which includes many of the countries that participated in the nine hundred ninety nine bombing campaign i'm sure it's

a very complex set of failings for the serbs but that'd mean in general that they serve a ready page that they're ready to kind of over calm the trauma. yes it is a very difficult to overcome the trauma and memories are very fresh and each year of. twenty fourth of march. is the day of remembrance of the of the event. as a matter of fact the twenty year past and in the meanwhile serbia. had. better ease. relations with the european union and the new they say the best of countries are generally and. attractive european integration was something go which. the how to say disappearing off. of

losing the cost of all. in serbia i mean by the beginning of two thousand the new government was ready to start to build the brain union and ukrainian union was a ready to open the association is the british in process to be the countries of the of the region on that days it was or something. could happen but after many years after ten or fifteen years there was no chance to do that because the countries which cannot move in the conditions because of a new developments within european union i know that public attitudes towards the e.u. integration five trade but the recent paul i saw by serbia's ministry of european integration showed that fifty five percent or starts as of now want the e.u. membership they still want that linking it to better live higher living standards

wealth and travel is it something that the e.u. is still capable of delivering by no means not only for the time being but for a long time. when you. he's faced with the. big prizes he has been. two thousand and eight and his composition is completely different different in comparison to the previous period when it was ready to enlarge now it is. because it is occupying it with its own problems so. it is a one part of the story the idea is that your opinion didn't change its. politics and it is the question why it didn't change i think it is because of some other reasons not because of the possibility of. the countries within its ranks but to keep control over their countries not to develop some trade

order and some other relations with the other countries particularly the russia china and the. prospect. countries drop the word now serbia has been receiving a lot of money from the european commission around i think four point three billion euro spits been two thousand and two thousand and sixteen which is in this same range as the most conservative after minutes of the damage caused by the at nine hundred ninety nine bombing would it be fair to say that the europeans perhaps indirectly and perhaps partially but have compensated for the damage that some of them cost. no means. it isn't very disputed. how big the damage was in serbia and montenegro so you know you know according to our economists there was nearer ten billion dollars of the wrecked material damaged

by more than thirty or forty billion dollars of. damage so european union could not compensate that through. this period from two thousand and two thousand eight hundred nineteen he says. he says in a program he's remains of an exemption distance which is about. two hundred two hundred million euros. but it cannot compensate what he spoke about. on the other side of this now assistant these it is ok but it does not have. prospects to work to find new purpose of that process it is the full fledged membership of serbia within european union i mean this. politics has been lasting already for fifteen

sixteen years and serbia is still on the way but now this is the way without. purpose it may be all without purpose on the e.u. side but there is clearly a purpose there for serbia i mean one of the conditions for. accessing the the united the european union is normalizing relations because they were between mentioned before and from what i know around sixty percent of serbs want to see that happen do you think the current government and the public understand normalisation in quite the same terms. i mean this. very problem not. i mean the same. research as you mentioned by disagreeing minister of. the nation which granted to fifty percent of habitants the paper a few printed in a shift to five percent yes yes but the same the question. was

a relation between serbia and russia would you like to enlarge and deep under nation in russian more than seventy percent was in favor were varied that i mean population are not combat about the consequences of the you don't pin of the serbian approaching to be union the cost as a consequence may be the lifting of the agreement trade agreements with russia and removing everything said to be added to the russia is not so much but it gives some perspective. in terms of trade their investments and so on so it is kind of my new permission to beat them in the park and. i would argue. i mean my ds teaches by the way i think most cost efficient position is that we don't see it as a you know either or game russia is more than fine of its serbia maintaining all the

trade ties it has and i think russia itself would like to trade more with the european union so perhaps it is time to. the perspective and look at it in a sort of win the win situation now let me ask you one more question about the european union because the e.u. off two thousand and nineteen is clearly very different from the european union of two thousand and nine when serbia applied for membership as you mentioned before it has lots of internal disagreements there is an obvious policy paralysis is that major fiscal and monetary problems do you think the time a average calm when the serbs would look around thank the e.u. for all the reforms it encouraged and decide to. they're better on their own that without the e.u. without necessarily any association with russia just you know trying to maintain balanced relationship with all the players it isn't really not the either or situation. i think the serbian should be ashame to maintain its close relations

with european union but in some a different mode in comparison the business association and the number is asian process this process is obsolete not now and it produces pretty bad economic consequences for serbia because i've been for example the liberated trade policies in european union when dr get getting any. compensation are only site so it should be should be changed i mean the whole situation to be no agreement about a close partnership between serbia and european union but noakes so such a comprehensive as a musician and. a physician him and the president poses so it is one part of the story and the other is the sebi i will be free to trade and to develop. and there

gently can and infrastructure. china and russia and the other qantas you know all incentives who with his own interests. to day debate to european union is somehow. limits. or to not the maze of investments and the trade and if it is not good for serbia it is time to. me to find this politics now let me ask you one have but have a question if serbia indeed decides to make it on its own chart its own path. outside the e.u. do you think that will bring the cost of an issue back onto the national agenda and i also wonder if you believe that serbia could gather cost of a not by force but by the strength of its economy by the efficiency of its government especially given that those are some of the weakest points some of the major issues now in kosovo itself. of economic relations and

democracy depends on a fairly large. and we did not have these negotiations on the numbers of the resolution forty four it predicted a moment of. because. we missed the opportunity between two designs two thousand and five and seven when the saudis. refused or serbian proposals for a peaceful solution into him. and the other talks are negotiations. all brussels process is not. the process of a kind of offer fair. so we must talk with the various about the benefits of sophisticated. having in mind deep down on me also

what reason he said to be are and the same kind of autonomy of substance. prishtina and who'd auster for years but if initially beast will compromise so who will be a long long lasting solution so it is the bias on our circumstances on the world political situation which should enable these kind of talks well professor some are just i think it would help the process if serbia word to be just as attractive to cost of albanians as the e.u. was to the serbs time of year is a golf anyway we have to leave it there thank you very much for sharing your perspective but that's thank you very much i encourage our viewers to keep this conversation going in our social media pages to syria same place same time here on worlds apart.

i want a shout out to get a former soldier that i just let me go he. was honestly i'd love to get another book and also the one. not. the publisher version. of the bush. years now and i'm sorry not to give them a few mission a second there how you and myself it was meant to measure how much of you who committed the passage the arms out there forcing them to was not imposed by now.

you can. more than a thousand yellow vests protesters take to the streets of france despite a government warning those soldiers could open fire if rioters endanger lives our correspondent is in paris the french government closed several iconic landmarks for protests but it seems at this saturday the demonstrators have found and not very well known location. u.s. backed kurdish forces in syria declare victory over islamic states off to capturing its last foothold and we call that the old trump card playing the terror group it's been defeated. around one million people descend on central london for ninety brecht is macho made growing on guard over the way the u.k. government has handled the process.