nato launched its first military operation without the approval of the un security council italia week bombing off yugoslavia was celebrated as a turning point in the history of warfare proving a conflict can be won by air power alone to take it on does it still seem like a victory all to discuss that i'm now joined by slobodan some are professor of political sciences at the university of belgrade professor march's good to talk to you thank you very much for its time. first of all let me ask you what do you remember of that day march twenty fourth nineteen ninety nine where warrior when the bombs started falling on the yugoslavia i was in my place in belgrade and the bombing started. for march. expected because. we have a process was finished with. the preparation for war.

by the government and by media so we did expect. to see what you said a moment ago that you saw it coming and yet i read somewhere that because of the tide state control over the media in the weeks prior to the offensive very few ordinary people expected to boeing or that it would be as massive as it was most of the people hold that a diplomatic deal with be made was it perhaps because you were a part of the government that you were better informed people at large. as a matter of fact it is a difference between. believing the. bombing. probably

because i mean rationally speaking nobody expected by the end of the twentieth century but for everybody her. objections best in countries particularly neat and usa i could expand expect this scenario those aries did bring slobodan milosevic into compliance he did what the west wanted and withdrew all the forces from cos of a but obviously at a very huge cost around five hundred people killed many thousands injured enormous damage to the infrastructure looking back to do you think the west could have achieved this objective without such some would argue disproportionate show of force. in terms of military action the western. is the not. objective because.

army was not actually. removed from. ordnance to the. agreement but it was not so. damaged as nato forces expected in terms of. serbia should accept. for forty four but it was not of the forty feet but something i would say positive zero point from which serbia yugoslavia enough of the rest. defined international international position reserving cost of an indoor here it is well documented at this point that the campaign was initially designed to destroy the yugoslav air defenses and high value military targets but it went far far beyond that heating a television station the chinese embassy many other public buildings even

a passenger train that was crossing a train that was crossing a bridge at that time how do you explain this mission creep and was it a mission creep as opposed to a deliberate intimidation. as a matter of fact it was a real war war without roofs. because the military objectives were not to do the only one i mean nato particularly in the second part of the war to save the last month and back to civilian objectives bridges for example they destroyed fifty four bridges in serbia and electricity. equipment and many things. out of which an enormous if you know. why for defense so. they tried to

make a. collective i thought it was intuition between the population that in the war cannot be. and. should and need to defeat but i think i would say that fortunately for us it was finished by and forty fourth and the decisions of the united nations by the said the same security council and. such a me. on the legal action of the nato were moved to work and your legal position of serbia international community now one of the reasons why this was allowed to proceed that way was because of russia's geopolitical weakness at that time its reliance on the western loans its willingness to remain in the good graces of the west and you know the i hear a lot of people here in moscow talking about how our prime minister at the time

trying to explain a round and cancel his visit to the united states but do you think moscow at that time could have done more to prevent what happened in your country. well it is obvious that moscow couldn't have been anything. and it important and in crucial in that war i mean moscow and gave some kind of diplomatic. support to serbia and by the end of the war. came back to the process and in moscow came back to the process within this unity council discussion about the new resolution so i was really on loaning the word but as they said the b.m. go on the murder was numb better than the beginning of people in mind there is a russian and forty four and the reaction of not only russian proposal china and the other countries being a members of the security council and pasta and there is

a russian which was in favor of for some future sushant of that problem but before that resolution was passed. moscow essentially joined the west in calling for milosevic to surrender and the yugoslav capitulation came later that day i'm talking about june third one thousand nine hundred nine do you think that it was an act of. bravery in the sense that you know maybe cora decide on the part of russia. it was very complicated situation and i think russia did what it could but maybe there were more expectation on the serbian sign into russia militarily. to do so i've been to france so in that situation. i mean you know she didn't want to surrender and actually she didn't do that she. did what she had to. do defending the country and using the

military to defend the country to be in the weapons that they have pretty back martin in comparison done dresser but. i mean that. i think it has been lost to wrong for the western countries because they counted in the weeks and not in a month the operation and finally i think that. when the outcome we should to brace insecurity in security council by the end of june one thousand nine hundred ninety one somehow exit for all sides. now that bombing and where milosevich agreeing to allow peacekeepers into casa. him also allowing to transfer governing functions to all over cost of oil to the un bodies but it would be another ninety years before cost of us independence would be

proclaimed and eagerly embrace by the west i know that you sir served as service for minister for cost of any talk here when do you think so a bit lost that province was it in one thousand nine hundred nine was it in two thousand and eight or was it perhaps later i think the. last who is the possible because there is a silver opportunity to. save. to save the position of serbia in that context. my i think united nine and it did not happen i mean the losing of asa law neither nora. into those at two thousand and eight says it was a union lot and a problem ation often the band is classical case of us a session and you know not that all of it will be depends but the still there also of the international law

honor our are more more on the serbian side i think not on notice a russian by forty four but also on just a key final act which guarantees movement on the ability of borders and still today it is valid thing because there is a big pressure. to be organized. in order to abandon the organic piece of international law particular of resolution about forty four it means that this is the solution is still valid if you still mean it east still strong weapon in the hands of serbia and many things not all of them but many things the events of the behaviors are being government of the day but the professor some are just i'm sure you know that. even if the international law is on the side of serbia international law is very often ignored it is in the interest of the most powerful nations and. i want to bring in the case of crimea here because

i'm sure you know that the russians very strongly opposed the idea of course those independence yet they also side to the cause of us independence as a case to justify the reunification of crimea back into russia what did you make of it at the don't you think that's perhaps it's a bit cynical on the part of moscow to first be strongly against casillas independence and use it as a case to support the it's its own policies. these are different things i mean kosovo is a clearer situation and do you want to miss a session as as i said this session of some people palatial from the. international legal maze border of the state. criminal case is somehow different because a grim criminal. did not look for it for in the bans that is the big difference. is just coming back to russia.

because it used to be the part of the national interest and does not look for international people nice in the band's always and the other two is because the society kind is not to be organized by the national mall and i am aware of that international law is some. soft law or something like that but no real serbia have the proof of its validity because as i said best i'm content is heavily pressured serbian government. it means that there without this. mission. there is. no independence of truth. now i think one thing in common between the case of crimea and the case of costello is that both of them were not only about territorial loss or gain they were about

brother geopolitics and the russians made a decision to stand their ground that decision is very costly russia is still paying for that but i think the feeling here in moscow is that serbs were never really ready to defend interests in cost of a quite as strongly that they weren't ready to do much beyond complaining and that they ultimately as you said made the decision to exchange cost of zero for the prospects is that a fair analysis. no no it is not the case now person within serbian public opinion no that is really means i'm getting restored. to binion's. moment the second moment is the cup of be billeted of european union to accept for a long time and it could not be the composition because it had been unit is not

ready to make these kind of opposition so there is no hope to say say. that adolf have been involved between also in european union i mean who gets the the the right to access and who the leader of also going to bring he so it is completely messenger asian and nobody can get in the any kind of compensation because of possible mission of also in the buns ok well professor some are just me have to take a very short break now but maybe i'll be back in just a few moments. to

get up off the ground of serbia give. them for a sound the sounds of fighting in grown manly christly essentially. was that away from the officer. the officer did they colonel lunge for the weapon once missed and it would have been done treece one. didn't hit him i never saw any contact with. any kind of went back to where they were so the officers back here there again fifteen feet apart at this point and that's when the officer for his gun even turned three.

welcome back to worlds apart this law but on some arch professor of political sciences at the university of belgrade professor before the break we talked about service painful past let's focus on the future and now as we alluded several times during the discussion serbia is now on track of joining the european union which includes many of the countries that participated in the nine hundred ninety nine bombing campaign i'm sure it's a very complex set of failings for the serbs but that's it mean in general that they serve a ready page that they're ready to kind of overcome the trauma. yes it is a very difficult to overcome the trauma and memories are very fresh and each year of. twenty fourth of march.

is the day of remembrance of the of the event. as a matter of fact the twenty year past and in the meanwhile serbia. had. in to better ease. relations with the european union and the new they say the best of countries are generally and. attractive european integration was something go which reduced the how to say disappearing off. of losing the cost of all. in serbia i mean by the beginning of two thousand the new government was ready to start to where do green union and ukrainian union was a ready to open association is the british in process to be the countries of the region on that days it was or something. could happen

but after many years after ten or fifteen years there was no chance to do that because the countries which cannot move in the conditions because of the new developments within european union i know that public attitudes towards the e.u. integration five trade but the recent paul i saw by serbia's ministry of european integration showed that fifty five percent or starts as of now want the e.u. membership they still want that linking it to better live higher living standards wealth and travel is it something that the e.u. is still capable of delivering by no means not only for the time being but for a long time. when you are. he's faced with. big crises has been. two thousand and eight and its composition is completely different different in comparison to the previous period when it was

ready to enlarge now it is. because it is occupying it with his own problems so. it is a one part of the story the idea is that your opinion didn't change its. politics and it is the question why it didn't change i think it is because of some other reasons not because of the possibility of. the countries within its ranks but to keep control over their countries not to develop some trade order and some other relations with other countries but the roman the russia china and other prospective. countries drop the birth now serbia has been receiving a lot of money from the european commission around i think four point three billion euro spits been two thousand and two thousand and sixteen which is in this same

range as the most conservative after minutes of the damage caused by the at nine hundred ninety nine bombing. would it be fair to say that the europeans perhaps indirectly and perhaps partially but have compensated for the damage that some of them cost. no means. it isn't very disputed. how big the damage was in serbia and montenegro so in a court and to our economists there was nearer ten billion dollars of the wrecked material damage but more than thirty or forty billion dollars of. damage so european union could not compensate that through. this period from two thousand and two thousand eight hundred nineteen he says. he says in a program is remains of an exemption distance which is about.

two hundred two hundred million euros. but it cannot compensate spoke about. on the other side of this now austin decent is ok but it does not have. to work to find. that process it is the full fledged membership of serbia within european union i mean this. politics has been lasting already for fifteen sixteen years and serbia is still on the way but now this is the way without a doubt. purpose it may be all without purpose on the e.u. side but there is clearly a purpose there for serbia i mean one of the conditions for. accessing the the united the european union is normalizing relations because they were between

mentioned before and from what i know around sixty percent of serbs want to see that happen do you think the current government and the public understand normalisation in quite the same terms and well i mean this poor sort of very problem not. i mean the same. research as you mentioned by disagreeing minister of the nation which granted to fifty percent of habitants the paper of printed a shift to five percent yes yes but the same question. was a relation between serbia and russia would you like to enlarge and deepen or nation in russian more than seventy percent was in favor were in favor of that i mean population are not combat about the consequences of the you don't pin of the serbian approaching to have been union the cost as

a consequence may be the lifting of the agreement trade agreements with russia and removing everything said to be added into russia is not so much but it gives some perspective. in terms of trade their investments and so on so it is kind of mind you permission to meet them in the park and. i wouldn't. mind these beaches by the way i think most cost efficient position is that we don't see it as you know either or game russia is more than fine of it serbia maintaining all their trade ties it has i think russia itself would like to trade more with the european union so perhaps it is time to you know shift their perspective and look at it in a sort of win the win situation now let me ask you one more question about the european union because the e.u. off two thousand and nineteen is clearly very different from the european union of two thousand and nine when serbia applied for membership as you mentioned before it

has lots of internal disagreements there is an obvious policy paralysis is that major fiscal and monetary problems do you think the time a average calm when the serbs would look around thank the e.u. for all the reforms it encouraged and decide to. they're better on their own that without the e.u. without necessarily any association with russia just you know trying to maintain balanced relationship with all the players it isn't really not the either or situation. i think the serbian should be assured to maintain its close relations with european union but the in some a different mode in comparison the business association and somebody is asian process this process is obsolete not mao and it produces pretty bad economic consequences for serbia because i've been for example the liberated trade policies in european union when dr get getting any. compensation are only

cite so it should be should be changed i mean the whole situation with no agreement about close partnership between serbia and european union but noakes so such a comprehensive as a musician and. a physician bless you poses so it is one part of the story and the other is the sebi i will be free to trade and to develop. and there gently can and. china and russia and the other hand it is in accordance to me with his own interests. to day debate to european union is somehow. limits. or to not the maze of investments and the trade and it is not good for some be a disturbing to. me to find this politics now let

me ask you one have but have a question if serbia is indeed decides to make it on its own and to chart its own path. outside the e.u. do you think that will bring the cost of issue back. onto the national agenda and i also wonder if you believe that serbia could gather cost of a not by force but by the strength of its economy by the efficiency of its government especially given that those are some of the weakest point some of the major issues now in kosovo itself. to bring the freakonomics of nations and democracy. on a fairly. and we did not have this negotiation on the numbers of the resolution forty four it predicted a moment of. political strangeness of course will be missed the opportunity between two designs two thousand and five and seven when the saudis. refused or

serbian proposals for a peaceful solution into him. and the other talks are negotiations. or brussels process is not. the process of a kind of offer fair. so we must talk with the various about the benefits of sophisticated. i mean in mind the tanami reserve used to be our and the same kind of autonomy of substance prishtina and who'd auster for years but if initial in the beast will compromise so who will be a long long lasting solution so. the bias on our circumstances of the world political situation we should enable these kind of talks well professor some are

just i think it would help the process if serbia word to be just as attractive to cost of albanians as the e.u. was to the serbs time of year is a gulf anyway we have to leave it there thank you very much for sharing your perspective but that's thank you very much i encourage our viewers to keep this conversation going in our social media pages pop to syria get on the same place same time here on worlds apart. ah. ah.

the fact that the. police. officer this isn't you know if there's a good there's a you know. after the previous stage of my career was over everyone wondered what i was going to do next the ball different clubs on one hand it is logical to sit in the home field where everything is familiar on the other i wanted a new challenge and a fresh perspective i'm used to surprising people and i saw one on t.v. . i'm going to talk about

football narvi or else it will sink i was going to go. by the way ways of the flying here. the whole time welcomes the findings of the long awaited mother reports which is that he did lots conspire with russia to win the twenty sixteen u.s. election. there was no collusion with the russian there was no up structure and none whatsoever. around one million people march in london against a break that is piling on the pressure on the prime minister whose withdrawal plan is little by the end times. and sunday marks twenty years since nato staunch this so-called humanitarian campaign and then he goes along via many locals through the

military offensive in waves.