and welcome to the show it's great to have you with us so a ricin was an attack on a mosque by an extreme right winger in new zealand kill fifty people or so it is today so busy spotting potential jihadists that they actually have turned a blind eye to far right extremism i think the problem has been developing for many many years and i and i wrote about this in my book. look we have always you got a problem of violent extremism probably just perspective and particular from within the muslim communities. and because we haven't been addressing that effectively. it's no doubt that the narrative that doesn't come out from within societies is going to give rise to white supremacy and fire right extremists no but we've been talking about it for many many years i don't think i don't know as a matter of not having the time i think being ignorant to the development of

far right extremism which has been happening right under our noses not just in the u.k. but right across europe and across other parts of the world as we witnessed in new zealand. and if we don't if we don't take stock of our approaches to violent extremism in all its forms then i'm afraid these two monsters be it. based extremism all right based extremism will consume all societies so the new zealand attack has been staged by a white supremacist you've been working with islam i mean would you expect the mentality of a white supremacist to be so different from that of a jihadist fighter that there are similarities in the way that they are recruited and there's an ideology behind this and we saw this in new zealand when some people would say oh there's no ideology behind far you know far right extremism or white supremacy of course that is i've not come across you know any any individuals that

i've got to work with from a far right extremist background but i've met many people from that kind of an ideology and it's the. narrative is a kind of similar to what would. what would you know affect an individual from a from a muslim background but there's a there's a lack of. understanding by institutions and governments as to how much or how effective and how. dangerous these organizations can be so in the wake of this hack at least partial blame has been attributed to the internet and online culture is this where hate crimes like that originate in the states and it's wrong to blame the internet or social media for you know all of the problems recall we've got problems with gun violence and you know all kinds of things online grooming but look in terms of violent extremism which which creates terrorism it's

not just the internet you know you have to be able to engage and these these narratives and these conversations you know taken place offline within communities and in societies as well as online so it's not just a matter of you know addressing it from a social media perspective we have to have a robust. you know proactive approach to these problems from the grassroots in the first place if you come people you know physically as well as what should be you know going to be able to change them so it's going to start from the grassroots level and it's going to take shape and the conversations to counter this problem to also include online as well but it's not just about focusing on line but do you think does it feels like it is so or it is are sort of. delegating the blame to the social media. in their point of view to all comes down to that but shouldn't the

authorities be taking care of this things before they happen. of course it's unfortunate me you know we found out you know it when the authorities whether they're here in the u.k. or across the world they would always shift the blame to something else or somebody else and it's got to be you know where the saudis are got to take stock they're going to take responsibility for the problems within society because they alternately they have they have developed policies and they can develop policies that will affect our societies so it's wrong for the authorities to push the blame on one particular you know. in this instance be it you know internet all social media organizations and companies so it's wrong for them to do that just like you know it's our duty it's the it's the government's duty to protect our societies on all you know in all aspects on every level on the

grassroots community based and also put safeguards in place for online said the new zealand attacker posted his ideas and manifesto own mind yet if they were nice and big tack companies to shut him down in your view is blacking out hate speech the right thing to do you want it comes to radicals or should their idea be ideas become testate out in the open. well if we if we've got a number of different approaches across the world to contest and challenge and tycho hate preaches and the narratives i come out over radical you know it's like you know preaching and india individuals why shouldn't we do the same with the ideology that we face with from far right supremacists and you know far right extremists we have to be able to have you know individuals and mechanisms and processes in place where we tackle the ideology not only happen through a set of conversations and we can choose to have those conversations online offline

and i say we have to start out offline first. because there is no way on earth i would accept or any expert in the field that this individual the god of the attack in new zealand was groomed and radicalized online purely behind connections around the world him with all the individuals on the wall flying can you know conversations being had which led him to become so violently driven by this is what he did so i see hass cold for revenge for the christ church attack should we expect a tit for tat string of attacks now of course look i says looking for these kind of oh but you know these are both feet off each other and i've been saying this for many many years they are going to feed off each other and we can expect it for unfortunately i hope we don't see it but it's a natural outcome to expect because of the way that these individuals these networks and groups freed of each other. you've been working with youth who got

radicalized after seeing people of their face killed in mass numbers and you said it is extremely difficult to help them cope with hate they have inside them do you think church of christ church will radicalize even more people even further. i think if we look at the broader picture and the dynamics involved. with this situation in christchurch all the inscriptions the manifesto and the narratives that are coming out you know and you could say it's information or it's misinformation or fake news or real news but the reality is that it's affecting you know thousands and thousands of individuals across the world in a very negative way because the theories that are coming out and some of them may be true and some of them may not but the reality is that the indian readers are coming out with these theories that is what they believe so i feel that it's going

to be a challenge for us to tackle the options of the money festo the house is being written by one that's being supported by others so we know there's a big network out there and because we know that so do individuals that isis will exploit and recruit not just isis there are others out there you know there's lots of ninety's coming out from within communities here in the u.k. and across the world that something must be done because there's a whole agenda to to to annihilate islam from the from the earth and this is what they believe whether we accept that all not. so if there's an attack committed by him last thing we can see the term islamic terrorism being used oh all over the media yet there were task committed by white supremacists are immediately recognized as acts of terrorism just as well you'll never see terms like white terrorists and or christian terrorists and the headlines why do you think that

society uses terrorism and islam in one phrase but doesn't link terrorism to christianity for instance communities. not just in the u.k. like i said across the world it affects everybody and this is what a lot of i'd say millions of muslims being said. being calling for one of being a well grievances about whether it's a muslim that does things it's a chair is it's a terrorist incident or once a white supremacy it's it's a shoot or it's it's a it's a young child who grew up to be an evil individual nobody calls it wide terrorism like you just said i'm no records of christian terrorism because it's it now this is a narrative that i'm going to use from a young person because it suits the agenda young people who believe that there's an agenda to undermine the sloman muslims and the reason why they don't use white dust and give the young people watch one of my young people use and you know why every

time we do this now we time we failed to call a spade a spade to call a terrorist a terrorist they would tell we failed but we are confirming the narrative and the ideology of the young people who would become sympathetic towards an extremist. all right we're going to take a short break right now when we're back we'll continue talking about violent extremism and the radicalization with. former al qaeda turncoat and had actually change foundation stay with us. join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and i'll be speaking to guests of

the world of politics small business i'm show business i'll see you then. manufacture consent to stick to the public will. when the ruling. closest protect themselves. with the flame of. the woman. in the middle of the room. to lose. their breath for a single. day of. training very young. eight months of intensive school.

records. and they save lives. and we're back in the studio with the air x. member of al qaida and had active change foundation talking about his experiences in extremists and. to colleagues ation while come back so you have said she used to be an al qaeda member and you even want to afghanistan to join the group there but

you said you won there are not as a terrorist but as a humanitarian what does that mean i mean did you did your recruiters promise you a non-combat role what was their plan for you what exactly were you supposed to do want there. no say it wasn't i mean it wasn't about me joining. it was about me going to help alleviate the suffering of the innocent women and children that were caught up in the invasion of afghanistan by the united states and the allies and it's only when you arrive there and you find out that the amount of destruction and loss of life or innocent women and children is that you know the reality hits you. so it wasn't about me you know i wanted to join al qaeda and go there as a fighter and it wasn't even mentioned about you know fighting it was about doing humanitarian work but this is also what happens to lots of young men and women that have gone from me previously to join to deploy to afghanistan or to want to iraq or

to go to the places of conflict they go because they feel about the human suffering of their fellow muslim brothers and sisters you know my in my case it was about human beings it was about children it was about you know innocent women and children so it was and this is exactly we've got a lot of people that go from this country to go and fight with the peshmerga because they feel. passionate about it the feel sympathetic towards the easy the women but then the the narrative also comes out is but what about the young innocent you know women and children from the muslim families and the human beings and that's why it was i was compelled i was i was emotionally driven you know. to do something to help those those individuals and to stop the suffering where you saw al qaeda member or not i mean what is the correct way yes i want the aware of how i mean yes yes i was because because it's because when i went there that's when i realized who these people were but by the time you realize that what they're doing it's not what i would as

a saying you know you see them as terrorists you know on the screen but when you when you're going then you see the amount of humanitarian work that they've been doing you realize that actually what the terrorist narrative is there for a reason but it's actually when you really get involved with a you know what i would. they go and you're right she realized how far from the truth it actually really is and thus that's why i would always say that when young men and women go to one to join isis you know i know it's difficult for people to appreciate and understand but i can tell you one is that when people go there they realize that how wrong they were how mistaken they were and no violent evil those organizations but it's wrong for us then to then deny them a chance to return for rehabilitation. so you say what turned you away from was there he's of children attacks and so you had back to kingdon to prevent terrorists from radicalizing other young people i thought ok it wasn't the kind of

group that's easy to leave i mean how difficult was it for you to get out of afghanistan. it's not i mean there's many groups that are not easy to leave you have to be very lucky to be able to you know sometimes turn your back on them but when you know the people that i met from here in the u.k. and. i realize and they realize that you know they have now they do come into this using young children to become suicide bombers is not part of a i was old enough i wasn't naive you know as a child or young person i was old enough to challenge the ideology that's wrong but then i was lucky to be able to you know step away and the middle of the night but not many people have had that luck and it's not easy to leave those those kind of networks you know we've seen a lot changed since two thousand and two since when i went you know they've become a lot more violent and a lot more driven to once they've got somebody and amongst them they're not going

at them go so it's very difficult for many people to leave and if they can i think we should offer them a route back so we can you know rehabilitate them and i learned from them when you were back to the u.k. and you just returned to your daily routine as if you've never been in the ranks of the worst terrorist network in the world i mean did you did so it is to look into your approach taken the brunt of the worst terrorist organization in the world since from ok i hear it now but i'll cut it's pretty bad just to of course of course of course i'm just i'm just saying you know i was a bit of humor but i was coming back to the u.k. i want you i didn't know what to do with myself you know i was a businessman before i left i was a family man i didn't want to go back to work i didn't feel i wanted to spend more time with my family with my kids with my brothers because i felt i betrayed them and i betrayed my religion and i almost took away you know a father from my children on

a family member from my you know from my family so i was i was i would say i was i was stressed out i was you know i was going through a lot of. trauma as to what i had actually done and what potentially could have happened to me i didn't speak to the authorities i didn't think it was important because i didn't do anything illegal but you know it's it would took it took me time to get people to understand in my community that we have a problem and i started to engage with the local muslim community who actually didn't know what i was talking about even the local authorities even government officials it took one individual to actually realize how how real the problem is and actually understand me and i was a police officer called in london. who was it was it was a chief inspector at the time and i spoke to him that's the first person apart from my brothers and i told about you know why i'm saying we have a problem in this country and then we had seventy seven unfortunately that's when people actually start to realize that what i was saying it is true and it will be

a reality and then we had the airline plot in two thousand and six. which happened right in our neighborhood and that's when i think our local authorities actually realized that what i was saying i was talking sense and that's that's that's what my my when i returned that's what my you know my intentions was has been a my passion lies in tackling this problem this coach and i think you know it's my written about in the book many times so you ran actually change foundation that you used to deal with radical asked individuals you said that your organization was among the most successful runs in the field. is there no more government funding for it and why isn't the british government supporting workers ations like yours any more. so up so i have to say that i started off the organization with my own funds and i sold my businesses and what i would probably i had to do to keep the organization going up to two thousand and six that's when the government starts to

you know look at our work because of the plot but our funding is being cut since two thousand and sixteen the whole prevent agenda as being too politicized you know it's been driven by individuals who are being opinionated it's taken the eye off the ball i will walk countering one extremism is risky what with all the sudden we're being told that our work is too risky so it was about the government becoming too risk averse and their intentions being being focused elsewhere for like for instance back sit and becoming prime minister so we got involved because we wished we were leading the way and we were known as the pioneers of the field and when you the pioneers you're always going to come across different issues and obstacles and mistakes and failures and we did you know we had some mistakes wrestle failures like anybody would but we weren't. it wasn't a learning back to others so they can learn from us but it became too politicized and that's where we lost off reviving the organization that was since the new

zealand attack because i believe that a grassroots community approach is the way forward in tackling extremism so i just wonder in your line of work have you ever managed to talk somebody out of committing an actual terrorist attack so it's we've worked with our organization has worked with some of the most high risk individuals in this country is not in europe. and i know i challenge you to that to check with our weather with the home office with our records and i've actually worked with individuals who were prepared to carry out acts of terrorism. and i managed to dissuade them and persuade them not to do this i won't say that they were about to commit an accident act of terrorism imminently i would say they were thinking of doing so and we managed to talk to them meant to them and put them back into the system of

a different kind of understanding so yes the answer to your question is yes we have you know prevented india because we're becoming terrorists. he is a radicalization begins with an idea with a conversation so does that mean that at the end of the day there will always be terrorists after all you can kill a man but you can't kill a conversation you can kill the idea and i say that and i said that again after a foot of the book i written in there you can you can bomb your way out you know you can try bombing your way out of it if we look since nine eleven and the war on terror and if you look at how many terrorists have been killed since nine eleven but look at how much terrorism and terrorist networks have increased with almost ten twenty thirty fuld you know it's been multiplied many times so by killing terrorists we haven't been going to defeat terrorism you can't kill the idea and those conversations will continue to happen it's like people will say george bush

said we've defeated the tire that we've got them on the run i don't think so look now and now we've been saying you know we've been we've defeated isis you know that we've we've called on the most we finish them off i don't think so they will never you can never defeat them completely less. we approach this in a different way killing a way out of it you're killing innocent women and children so you kill ten terrorists and you give fifty you know a reason to become a terrorist so we've seen that by wall loam you come out and you come up decrease it you're going to increase terrorism it has to be a different approach it has to be through a set of conversations it has to be through a grassroots community approach just like you critter revolution so you know i also not long ago spoke to a man named dean who is an al qaeda turncoat and also britain's most successful spy going to zation and he said that there is now theological crisis because i'm

quoting many muslims around the world have a superficial understanding of their face the radicals that you worked with was that the case with them did they understand they say that they were about to kill or be killed for. you know to some extent they were that what they would kill and kill for. for what they believed in. you one could argue that that could be a slam i would say yes you know they use islam as a rico but don't use the islamic theology as everything they use a small as a really cool but it's driven by their emotions by their grievances by that to what's happening around the world with regards to what's happening in afghanistan with up in iraq and syria and published on on all over the world where muslims are being persecuted are being attacked no they use the extremists will apply a warped understanding on any any expert will tell you that they take their

religion out of context to. create a narrative that would allow an individual to believe that they're doing it for the sake of their religion. i thank you very much for this interesting interview and insight we wish you all the best of luck with whatever it is that you are doing or talking to one hundred x. number of hokkaido out and had a back to change foundation discussing radicalization of the best ways to tackle it that's it for this is. the biggest political hoax in american history russia is almost a thing of the past brings it on the other hand only seems to drop into deeper

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