hello and welcome to cross talk where all things considered i'm peter lavelle the biggest political hoax in american history russia gate is almost a thing of the past bragg's it on the other hand only seems to drop into deeper levels of purgatory and what is next for russia's relations with the west. cross-checking some real news i'm joined by my guest here in moscow grandees and he is a professor at the higher school of economics as well as author of russia's geo economic strategy for a greater eurasia and in brussels we cross and i'm a show and she is a former m i five intelligence officer or across the uk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate any let me go to you first here i was look don't usually read the washington post but someone sent me an article so i felt obliged to read it title as material confronts

a crisis russia's footprint in venezuela grows and then there's a very bizarre paragraph and this is how i want to start this segment here in an era of generally warming ties between the trump administration of moscow russia is deepening its involvement in venezuela so when so and so and so you know i don't know relations were on the up and up and really what i want to talk about is that is anything going to change in the post. or world after this report that was released on what i've called all along as a hoax here is there any future a positive future for russia's relations with the united states and with the western world of course including the european union as we move forward go ahead any. well i think post military is a chance and certainly many former intelligence officers diplomats military people around the world hope when trump was the president elect over two years ago was the fact that he wanted to recalibrate relations with russia and also try and work with them to sort out the mess in the middle east so whatever people in america might

think of their american president to the rest of the world the chance of peace breaking out looked at its highest for a long time then of course we had this deep state hoax as you call it and i would entirely agree trying to show that there was russian collusion even the four president trump was actually inaugurated and this was multiplied time and time and time again by the american legacy press all based on unsourced intelligence on quotes from unknown people and it was metastasized into the known new facts about russian collusion so i took a lot of hope from the fact that moonless report apparently shows there was no russian collusion what gives me a slight distress though at this point is that it appears over the last two years because of the pressure of this investigation president trump has to a certain extent corralled into any possible maneuvers he might have with russia in the future so i think there's a very delicate path for him to tread if he wants to try and free himself from the

the hands of the deep state and of course one of the thing we need to remember is that even though the democratic party and the reports that came from that were funded by them by the former my six intelligence officer christopher steele have now been debunked suddenly the democratic party is now trying to focus on trump's finances they will not give up so he's still going to be under pressure and there's still going to be reasons why the deep state will keep him in their claws yes but you know glenn we've seen we've seen a wave of saying sions as a result of this so the predicate of the saying sions was we hope with the hopes a hoax and so the engines will stay i mean you don't. undo those things very easily and it seems to me of course the united states has said that it will still it still has not considered the sanctions that will ply as a result of this cripple case so sanctions we mane on course here and i don't see really any political will within the deep state as we're calling it now for better

relations with russia i mean look at trump's reaction to a sovereign country named venezuela asking for help from another sovereign country russia this is made pompei o and it's made john bolton live in. and i think in the ideal world you would see the united states say listen we made a mistake let's walk it back and fix relations about obviously i don't think that's going to happen. the democrats himself a bit put in a quite a difficult situation although because they have been pushing this conspiracy theory now for two years and after peddling the same conspiracy theory two years. well he really difficult position when you say. it is it is embarrassing but what what what can they do at this point are they going to reset to go back to two thousand and sixteen say listen we misread the situation let's start all over again i don't think it's possible i think too many of the political elites invested too

much of their careers into into this conspiracy theory so simply saying it was a mistake i don't think it's possible anymore and furthermore i don't. they have elections coming up you know and what can really do because this conspiracy theory kind of sucked out all the oxygen in the room i mean everything they've been talking about for two years has been this conspiracy theory and everything they're talking about is the trump card and everything is about trump so i don't really know. i don't see that there's a political will hear any let me go back to you you said something earlier you know your answer there was no collusion this is what the report says however if you look at bars for page so naacp says there it is clearly stated that russia quote unquote meddled in the two thousand and sixteen election and this is what both sides everybody i mean even if you watch fox news they will repeat that as well even though they're carrying water i think too much so for

a media outlet carrying water for trump all the time so what i'm saying is it's now it's part of the genetic code of the political discourse that russia is a threat to the united states a threat to quote unquote democracy i suppose you know bernie sanders would have a different opinion but anyway so i'm what i'm saying is that it's a. the mix now ok. yes it has in fact been established as fact because it's been reported enough i mean it's the old truism isn't it if you repeat a lie enough times it becomes the truth that is what has happened here and we have a situation where according to facebook there was some sort of fake accounts that were developed by russia which had minimal impact on the american election what we do know for fact is that a british company cambridge analysts occur was data scraping off facebook and sending targeted adverts to people across america they had far more impact i think on the american elections so you know you could just as well say that the u.k. had the american elections and this is a time of an argument we've had

a manual macron of france saying his emails were hacked it must be the russians turned out not to be we've had anger merkel in the run up to the elections last year saying oh are elections going to be hacked by the russians she set the be indeed the equivalent of the cia to investigate this and they came back saying there is no evidence thing so she just told them to go out and find some evidence and you know we've had allegations about breaks it we're having current allegations at the moment in brussels about the e.u. concerned about russian hacking in the upcoming elections next month so this goes on and on and on based on the full there's it evolved out of the american presidential election in twenty sixteen and this manipulation this fake news are very is very useful for the passersby because it gives them another excuse to try and crack down and censor the internet and that's what we're seeing across europe particularly at the moment but you know any brings up a really good point this is the cultural that they use to limit speech basically limiting the speech of people that are of the political right in the case in the in

europe so-called of populist movements this is this is a very powerful straight in effective strategy because this gives the it rationalizes limiting freedom of speech in going out. sure these social networks yes i think all of this is going to be very harmful for democracy and again this is very problematic cause what's brilliant with democracy is this it's a very dynamic form of political governance too you know it's a good way of ducting to change the nation so often we find that the problem of our an enemy of the marks it tends to be a lot of this. and we call them have political dogma which a country which challenge and i think of one of them a simpler been see russia remains our adversaries so to point out if if there is no evidence. we have to go out and look for it and i think. for this reason nothing really is going to change especially with the smaller report because what

i've seen since it came out sort of things like oh perhaps smaller thing on it you know the conspiracy could include him it's really big or before we need the full report or even. it doesn't prove that trump is guilty but on the other hand he doesn't prove his innocence either so. he is guilty until proven innocent so this it's a very strange well this is what trump here we go back to and here i suppose. the nato leadership is not happy with miller's report and but on top of that they probably have to be happy that donald trump is already spoken with the brazilian president maybe brazil will become part of nato colombia has already expressed their i mean you know if russia isn't enough or maybe there is not enough collusion the russians are not as meddling as they thought well if they can't keep expanding they they can turn south they can look south for two to continue nikos reason to

exist because if it doesn't expand it collapses go ahead any. absolutely and we see nato trying to justify its existence over the last couple of years absent president elect it's interesting as well over the last few months that the emphasis has shifted slightly. towards china you know with your trump iraq's trade wars with china and suddenly china is the big hacker country not russia so what we saw geopolitical shifts is very interesting i do want to pull back to one particular point though when it comes to the western response to the moon report because the key figure in this as i can see it is a former and i six intelligence officer christopher steele who runs a company called or base business intelligence now he was the author allegedly of the dirty dossier you know all those scurrilous rumors about what trump got up to when he was organizing this universe in moscow years ago and it was a very poor reports that was easily debunked but it turns out as well that that is a connection to the script whole case in the u.k.

because another former colleague is a man called pavlo miller yeah who's been protected by censorship by the dean otis in the u.k. who allegedly was also script old wonder he was the recruiter who got him out got him to betray russia so you have this linkage both through business and through the official spy agencies between crystal steele and the democratic party make up these lies funding these lies about trump and then suddenly we have this very unusual case of alleged overtop poisoning in the u.k. against cripple and the key linchpin between these two stories which have been used and abused to try and alienates and stigmatize russia tends to be this one most least by company or based business and danton's ok it still apparently has gone to the heather ok we're already out of time anyway i'm convinced that was the u.k. that hacked the american election thank you for joining us we're going to go to a short break right now and after that short break if you want to question some real news stay with.

my dad also one that it was all about money laundering first visit this. she just a different. oh good this is a good start well we have our three banks all set up here maybe something in your something in america something overseas or the cayman islands or do we do all these banks are complicit in the progress we just have to say hey i'm ready to do some serious money laundering ok let's see how we did while we've got home got a nice luxury watch for max and for stacy oh beautiful jewelry and how about. luxury automobile again for max you know what money is highly illegal here for a watch guys record. i think the number. they matter to us is over one billion dollars that more than ten

white collar crime happens. eighty five percent of global wealth he longs to be rich eight percent world market there are still some with one hundred five hundred three vertical per circuit and when he rose to twenty thousand dollars . china's building two point one billion dollars ai industrial park but don't let the numbers over. the only number you need remember one one you know for the mid one and only boom boom. welcome back across like we're all things are considered i'm peter lavelle reminder we're discussing some real news.

ok let's change gears here i want to talk a little bit about brags that here glenn you know we're not in the u.k. all right we're not suffering the purgatory as i mentioned in my introduction of the the briggs it phenomenon here but for two people you and i sitting in the studio here looking a far it seems to me that really what has happened is just a leadership failure by the political class because he i'm sure in the u.k. can blame. the remainders and then the brics akira's or the conservatives or labor you can go through all that and they are ok but from our lofty perch here it seems to me a constitutional democratic crisis because there was a vote it's very clear but the political class has failed to deliver. yet so well from my interpretation of bricks it's kind of reflects a lot of the same problems you're having in. the states with trump are across syria which is. a growing rift between the political establishment which have committed

themselves to certain political dog most and you have the population which have been drifting further further away from this now i think the reason why. it fits within this theme is because the political elites never wanted to leave the euro of course there was david cameron who gambled on that but again the first rule of gambling is you know shouldn't gamble if you can't afford to lose but you know he just wanted to bring the conservative party back in to get over this divisive element but i think. that the problem to have now is another have to actually deliver breaks it. well is short they don't want to and i guess. you know there's a bit of me going to any any but i it's it's it's completely least to me it's completely transparent that they don't want to say they've invented things they've . gone back procedural law and precedent and that they keep doing all of these things or i mean i'm a political political junkie like everyone else watching this program but once at

once i'm beginning to get confused and i'm beginning to get worried i mean it's obviously i mean if you look at the speaker of the house of commons i mean he's obviously a remainder i mean there's there is no he doesn't show any kind of dispassionate i mean he's the most passionate guy in the room most of the time which i've never seen before it's obvious the political class doesn't want to leave and this is why i can i will not stop talking about the democrat democratic deficit because we have the european parliamentary elections coming up and again that issue of the deficit in democracy is going to be addressed and i think people are going to go this may be the one time they ever go out and vote because people are getting more and more angry that the the elites are not solving problems that people think need to be solved any go ahead. i absolutely agree i think this was definitely a protest vote after years of blatant corruption that never went it was never held

accountable most notably with the run up to the iraq war in the lies that were told to parliament and to the people also there was the m.p.'s expenses scandal ten years ago which apparently got worse since then they haven't learned their lessons so the disconnect the democratic deficit as you mention has become a gaping chasm in the u.k. at the moment and the political elite will just not understand it so david cameron tried to tweak the system he was rebuffed in brussels and went back with no result when he tried to reject the relationship in twenty fifteen twenty sixteen and suddenly of course he had to call a referendum not really because he had any faith in democracy or the people or anything like that but to try and merge the two antagonistic sides of the conservative party in the u.k. that have been at loggerheads since the one nine hundred eighty s. that's all he was trying to do it had nothing to do with democracy it had nothing to do with europe it was just trying to provide cohesion to his political party the

irony being of course that they got a result they completely did not expect it was a protest vote it was the biggest democratic vote in the entire city of u.k. history and now it is being ignored so it is sundering not only the conservative party in parliament it is broken the people's trust from whichever side remain or breakfast here in the parliamentary process i mean the whole thing has been staged the whole thing's been manipulated through the courts there is a lot of anger and i think it's only going to get worse i mean people keep talking about all the demonstrations on the u.k. streets from one side or the other and there's damn little coverage of the. demonstrations in france in english speaking media that's actually far more important and yet we still have a manual macro on the french president lecturing britain about the state of its democracy you know what we have these european parliamentary elections coming up and we want most and we're going to learn. we're not learned and watching this break that process because you know the way the anglo-saxon media's is portrayed

this is that you know it's it's to resume has been very. strategic and. tactful in dealing with brussels but brussels is like a mailed fist ok they're making this really really hard and this is a message to everyone else in the european union don't mess with brussels and when you're in it's hotel california once you check in you can never check out and you will feel i'm serious and you will be you have the pain if you challenge the dictates coming out of brussels. near the negotiator on the e.u. side he probably slip of the tongue but he can reveal this in one of his interviews with a french paper as well the. outcome of the british election of essentially the negotiation that have two purposes one to get a favor of agreement with the british but the second would also be to deter anyone else from trying to follow this so so obviously this has affected the negotiations

at the vicomte well if they if the british leave on the good terms and end up doing better on the outside i think that'll be allowed good terms or no i don't think so i don't think so at all it will it won't be and i think what makes it more problematic to point out they have. the political elites in britain have more or less been to some extent on the side a long day they don't want to leave either so what i found fascinating was there's a lot of reasonable arguments both to stay in the e.u. and to leave and this was all being debated up to the referendum now after a friend i'm the same debates began continued but now essentially instead of being you know we have to compete for the people's voice now at the debate is whether or not the people voted wrong. but both sides are doing this officer sitting in a sort of article forty of a second right now we're going to revoke the electorate that would make it really feel. ok let me go to. now i'm serious i'll say that i'm intrigued with i think there is an element of truth to it i mean i think the biggest biggest question i've

had during this entire fiasco is that it really is was intended to do this all along just where everyone down with all the scaremongering you know the cherry on top of the cake there i'm is it possible because a lot of people tell me she isn't that bright and she would be able to go ahead. i think that people believed when david cameron was scaremongering in the run up to the referendum that if he lost then he would immediately invoke article fifty and then he just resigned and then he ran away from the whole mess and trees may really try to pick up the pieces and i'm not sure if she really had the momentum behind the the will to enforce breaks it she was a remainer so that's where a lot of this mess comes from and then she did it about invoking article fifty and it allowed the easy get their ducks in a row and put together the negotiation position and make sure all the other twenty seven countries were aligned so the u.k. went into a very poor hand anyway and with by taking away the option of no deal she lost her

key negotiator point so it's been a mess every which way but when it comes to referenda and let's not forget the irish the maastricht treaty so did the darts so did the danish and they were all told to go back and have another vote because they got the result wrong that's what they're trying to do in the u.k. so the notion that if your vote makes a difference the politicians and the elite wouldn't allow it to happen i think it's been proven time and time again across the e.u. and i think we're heading towards that situation yet again in the u.k. you know but any i'm a stay with you here people there is a talk of the people's vote here and with doesn't that just send the message that you just spoke about here is that it's not really the result it's you have to have a process the gets the correct result according to brussels and so obviously in the case of briggs i didn't. happen here but doesn't it really. lessen the value of elections themselves if you have to keep repeating them over and over again.

absolutely and it breaks the trust between the government and the government so this is a crisis i think we're going to see building across europe not just in the u.k. but with other so-called populist movements and what populist uses if it's an insult yes in fact surely that's just one of the people you know you know glenn you know i'm glad i mean says that because you know it's very difficult to define populism it's more about process it is the act of visitation of people here because you can have populism all across the political spectrum here but the media is demonized it is being fringe or all it's. seditious even here and i think again we have this kind of trump affect the more you insult the people like the media did the supporters of trump you know the well the smell the wal-mart people or hillary clinton's the deplorable the more you speak to people like that

the more they are willing to take a chance ok go ahead. subjectively what the finance populist often they're willing to bring up the topics which elites refuse to address you know sometimes the populace are good sometimes but sometimes have solutions some stamps to don't but it's enough to put into context of the post cold war system we heard them in we have a few. few things we can't really challenge so in europe it would be that the e.u. is the main format for organizing european affairs but you also have in the liberal economics you have a mass migration multiculturalism and then you have the humanitarian interventionism the general assumption you can solve everything with military now. when someone challenges like the establishment can't really challenge any of these things so that essentially leaves a huge or growing scope for so-called a populous to step in because they're willing to address. i mean we through a member for example coming during the election he would say things like well what's the point of nato today the soviet union is gone or why do we start new wars

when they don't finish the old ones it was treason to say we'll stay mostly how could you possibly say anything like this in the wall if we so you. know the new the new liberal system you cannot defend your borders because defending your borders it's finding your sovereignty and sovereignty somehow is racist but it's not just on the right like in the u.s. you have people. now who comes up on the left saying listen maybe the oldest wars isn't a great idea and now she's an apologist for assad you know a russian agent you know they're already label her this thing so i think that this is why you have the populist. they arrive well they come back and they say what's on a lot of people's minds ok it goes back to the first part of the program you know when people start speaking their mind there is people in power that want to limit that speech and narrow it here as all the time we have here many thanks to my guest here in moscow and in brussels and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember.

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we've had more shootings in this county then some states have collectively good went to his website began featuring the comments about gold his family the sheriff might then. squash you like a boy and you know i wish you'd stop then you should say and i'm left with stuff i believe what i'm doing ok you know it's your funeral. p.b.s. and critics in this house. i snuck out of the united states. into russia. political. men they know. i did the numbers. they matter us with over one trillion dollars. worth. in ten white collar crime. eighty five percent of global wealth he longs to be

rich with six percent world market thirty percent some with one hundred thirty three per second per second and when he rose to twenty thousand dollars. china's building two point one billion dollars. mark but don't let the numbers over . the only number you need to remember one one business show you know the mid one and only boom but. i. know.

the media and to me is the lead ski wins the first round of ukraine's presidential election setting the stage. against the president of. the british parliament. table to result the deadlock raising the prospects for. facebook calls for. some governments to play a more active role in regulating the web. the u.s. holds deliveries of f. thirty five. this comes off for a major setback for president in local elections.