the tree bombardment of another country until kind of off of the berlin wall fell the idea is that the starting words of nato are about bringing together countries for democracy individual rights and the rule of law so it's as much values based as a as a military alliance i'd say you mentioned law. you know the moves to the world as criticize nato for doing things against the law there was no u.n. security council council resolution for the yugoslav bombing which is their first aerial bombardment campaign back in one thousand ninety one i know before you having to do communications with the organization i was with the un actually i don't know whether that's that's right i mean the relationship between the un and nato at that time were very close and it was kind of an integrated integrated campaign if you will it was it legal. i don't know about that i mean i think one would have to go back and discuss exactly how that worked together and i must say that when i think of my un. one of the problems with the un is you know that it

lacked a lot of in forstmann procedures which in principle are available to nato ok well i might get back to law in a second your you mention the word security which is a word used again and again in britain alone we're five hundred thousand dead from cancer access cancer deaths because of the bankers grazes according to the lancet ten thousand suicides bridge journals like so i mean isn't the real danger in the two nations. hasn't it the financial services nor outside powers or anyone i guess what you're talking about there really is expenditure on defense and expenditure on important domestic pressing issues i mean is you know president trump is trying to get up to people to contribute up to two percent of their budgets well i think they have in the u.k. but in most other countries they've not two percent we're not talking you know huge amount of the national budget of course if your prime minister you want to look after people's internal security you want to look after. and health care and i

guess that for a lot of people defense comes fairly low on their list of priorities so it is indeed a bit of a tradeoff between how you how you manage national expenditures but then when it comes to what you're saying about why countries may not be going to the two percent you don't think it's because it's perceived even by may two nations. to be an organization that acts outside the law no i don't think that i think it's religion in libya came later obviously i mean why do people vote in certain ways it's quite true that you know with all this talk about immigration and refugees that seems to be having a political impact all over all over the west or west hollywood because of libya yeah exactly partly libya where you have nato in the libya campaign so it was a just you know in between is your leverage that was after but when i was at the sixtieth anniversary we certainly had to make clear to people why it was worthwhile belonging to this organization because it was not their top priority so we had to

say you take peace and security for granted until it doesn't exist anymore but it's not that different from the e.u. not that different from and from the u.n. it's cetera ok but it always is the u.n. abides by the law because if i were i would it breaks the law of rule international whereas libya there was no u.n. security council resolution that mandated major members to bormann destroy africa's riches but capital nations if you want have discussion on international law i mean as you know international laws such as it is is is a general assembly resolutions and then they may or may not be enforced by the security council and they may or may not go to the international court of justice the problem with international law as a whole is that it lacks any kind of of really effective enforcement because it's something we talked to international lawyers on this program quite a bit about so nature one of the same time perceiving the threat to come from russia and china has a situation where germany is pursuing nordstrom to. which donald trump has said

it shouldn't because it endangered security italy is recognizing built in road from china. these the dangers is italy and germany endangering nato by making alliances with the countries that so on that you know you insult them bug countries perceived as enemies i don't think you put is black and white and i said i would like to talk enemies and i'm certainly in favor and i was in my time and nato in favor of dialogue and cooperation including with non member countries not like to use the word enemies we worked very closely with russia on anti-terrorist programs a program called stand decks that i was responsible for running and it was very successful for a few years then in terms of the nato russia council for example i mean i was active the nato russia council of course it's been pretty much on ice for a few years the partnership for peace etc and of course and lots of your writing has not put it in that covert ational context but then things have changed

so dramatically since you were there at nato ukraine the scriptural incident here i mean now we have a defense secretary actively saying things about russia going away and of course talking about the lethality of weaponry i would not say that this is you know death definitively. a sort of ultimately you can disagree on other areas when i was with nato i was always in favor of dialogue i mean you can say that by mean some people might have criticized me for being naive or overoptimistic or whatever but we had some really good relationships including with russia on some really key programs and of course you know with this discussion about the i.a.f. treaty not being you know continued but the start treaty is coming up again for discussion in a year or two i mean these are issues that are far too important to let sort of everything be viewed for a confrontational prism i think things are more in a state of flux than being definitively at a kind of very negative point do you think of the trump election in the first place

and some of the words coming out of washington terrified the men in brussels i mean president trump is known for speak what i recall from. when he came to nato the first time was his big push about expenditures and saying it isn't right that the u.s. should bat this amount whereas nobody else is coming up to that two percent only for four or five countries and i think that secretarial stoltenberg congratulated him on putting pressure on people to up their security expenditures and therefore contributions to nato i don't believe that since that time president trump has been particularly critical of nato if you go back to the days of sort of eyes and heart and truman when nato was founded they had very different views on the how this atlanta relationship going to develop might be reading eisenhower and saying yeah this military industrial complex is the last thing well we need ok the military does this or we. have i totally agree the military industrial complex has a lot to answer for because it has to be said that obviously we have the odds on

favorite to be prime minister in this country jerry corbett a longtime critic who's called previously only abolition of nato i think now labor policy is not to not to say that as i said it's really considering. its position nato spanish parties since the financial crisis we've had a whole religion was being difference and and political approaches to security and it depends of course a little bit if you're on the more on the left side on the right side but i mean if you're talking about mr corbett and his positions i mean what about his position the e.u. how is that evolving people's positions evolve and change depending on what they see as the need at the current time and again you can also view nato in different ways but as you view it is a foundation that helps to keep the peace after all there's been no what peace exactly there's no reason to yugoslavia the afghanistan the war continues to this day libya is a disaster in ruins nature lost in syria obviously it's nato originally somehow or

other for all those years of the cold war. we succeeded in not having anything worse than the cold war put it like that and that's not thanks to nato necessarily it's all. so thanks to great russian leaders and i mean i know that's not so popular to mention these names but i mean i'm sure that mr gorbachev is as much to be to be credited and praised for avoiding an end to the cold war as anybody on the nato side but somehow or other this. confrontation which certainly when i was in the u.n. in the one nine hundred eighty s. and we were seriously afraid of that i remember writing speeches against. with the secretary general of the time. with us back to. the first. with ukraine's secret service on this week's biggest stories with.

a comedian who has won the first round of ukraine's presidential election. doesn't have strong policy positions maybe. though he made it clear corruption is ukraine's biggest challenge. very serious problems no. breaks. the law and it's time. to dig deeper to hit the stories that mainstream media refuses to tell. me to be smart we need to stop

slamming the door. and shouting past each other it's time for critical thinking it's time to fight for the middle for truth the time. watching closely watching the hawks. used to do crack when i was a little kid my dad he was like oh. so you know i got like what i needed when i was a baby but i had a bad. there's always been single mothers and african-american community service and slavery. i think it's more of a teenagers having kids. you can expect a fourteen or fifteen year old first daughter to order for him to be a father and he's a child. lost their place in.

my car and breaking down i was unable to get to work on time so they let me go with my paycheck that i bring home. early enough to pay my car insurance. welcome back join me now because there's only week's top stories lecture in practical sociology at middlesex university in rubble of an organ for dr lisa mckenzie lisa thanks for going back on your we don't for ages so the media obsession with bricks suddenly advising the break up of a big order just b w c k b a beautiful idea that's a young the big thing bricks that you've chosen something from the mirror well yeah

but i'll vouch these trends in the big story d.w. pay child poverty ficus is a national scandal as it reaches full point one million so we've now got four point one mil. in children living in poverty in this country not only child poverty what we found out this week from the report was we've got increase in private pension a property particularly women we see in the rise of pension aged women living in obsolete poverty again homelessness is rising child poverty is rising not only that the same time the mortality rate for working class people drop in it's plummeted now this is the story or the age of the easter you know this becoming more is really we do say to you you know this is a relative poverty it's only three point seven million in absolute poverty which as was the cave like existed at that is the serious point they would make that it's only for and of course labor destroyed the economy yeah for now people are in

employment but obviously wages of dobbin rising no one's buying anymore nobody is buying that anymore we cannot have this you know ten years ago this up and this is . lies at the door of a stereotypic it's absolutely lies at the door of nick clegg and david cameron. kicked off by the labor party obviously way was the acceleration of austerity the way that the costs of the cuts of absolutely fell on the poorest people and then at the same time we've got these big organizations and companies moving in sort of vulture like into those communities and i'll name some of the mamas. sports direct boohoo we all know them and this is historically not since there's napoleonic wars that we see in this going to wage stagnation is the figures but ok if these many millions of children don't make the news quite as big as the

processes in westminster this did make something of it i don't know whether it was in yeah well in full to our cancer causing come. course and all the toxins found on balconies and inside of place i mean this. blaze in britain i mean it's not surprising really i mean anyone that comports who went to together would say that if the heat that came out of this building and the plastics that were involved in and of the materials that were involved were melting and we all saw that then of course there's going to be toxins. in the sense that this is in a very rich poor of town is the poorest area one of the galleries in europe but they're one of the riches. in the world would the rich in houses down the road from here be caring about cancer causing chemicals or you would feel and they would address that in the know what you would think so i wouldn't i mean you know i mean

we go back or hundred years in. and when we are born diseases you know the rich start to move out of london and who knows what's going to happen in another five ten years of this from the say when they will be soon developers accused of segregating children at london prater and right where do we even start i did a year long picket outside what we called the poor dogs in east few years ago something similar was hunted explain what poor do is. they are development where there are sort two types of tenants is one part and it's exactly like this is what this virtual but this is for children we've taken this a step further the problem is is the people that live all the people have paid for their own houses or pay privately for their rent don't always want to live side by side in cheek by jowl with people who live in social housing so developers are coming up with all kinds of schemes and sort of little quirks to make sure that the

. private tenants don't have to come in contact with the social tenants and now what we're seeing is a further development with this because. this is happening to children so the children the demographic time bomb that all these generations of children will grow up knowing they're less than yeah the children of the rich yeah i mean it undoubtedly this is going to have a psychological effect on children of course if you are told that you can't go to this place you have no right to be a not place because you are not the same as though you know that is absolutely apartheid these sorts of developments are not just over the river they are all of europe the european union in fact property interests crucial to the european yeah you've written in this school of economics paper here about what we should are going to be focusing on breaks rather than the processes down the road at westminster march to stop the march to save for and. the other remain as all the

people who wanted a second river and here i wrote this. they remain march because what i want them to do is i want them to start to think about not the details of bricks it and what's going to happen and what does the buck stop mean and you know will their kids be able to go on and erasmus trip what i want them to think about is where how we got here in the first place will you ask the question why is it that we didn't see a million people on the street. just yet. and other issues in this case i suppose because it's very easy on us and i don't always blame the people that march in that when we live in a very individualized society where we've created individuals if you are living in poverty or if your children are living in poverty or if you have no house in or if your house is too expensive and you get kicked out of it in an individual our society that she will fall what they're not what they're doing here and they're

marchers they're collectively thinking about what they don't want which is bracks it but they're not collectively thinking about the way that they process would like britain so look we need to act. the parliamentary system is absolutely broken the party political system is absolutely broken the parliamentarians that we've got are not fit for purpose the parliament is not fit for purpose it's literally dropping down. and actually we've got we could have a more interest in at this point in british history and british politics we could actually have a much more interesting debate about what we want to be as a country and people dr lisa mckenzie thank you well it's no joke over in ukraine comedian volodymyr selenski has beaten us back to petro poroshenko at the first round of ukrainian elections but after allegations of increased cia involvement on the ground in ukraine will either candidate be independent joining me now is the sylvia chan lee professor of peace studies or nonviolence of rhode island former

soviet union election one of the better thanks so much nicholas for coming on so some we know from leaked obama administration officials our coup was engineered by washington in the ukraine take it up to twenty nineteen how on earth as a comedian actor ended up looking like he's going to lead europe's largest nation it seems to be rejection overall rejection of the political system and the political elite in ukraine he has the added advantage of running not as self but as his character you know very popular television serial called servant of the people where he gets to mock everyone. and to make himself look good at the same time yeah referring to that comedy series the character he portrays is quite clear in his disdain for the international monetary fund you've written about a pinochet candidate for washington. as far shanker

is is he the antidote to a pinochet character someone who collaborate with the i.m.f. in ukraine we will have to see the ukraine is in a bind it's indebtedness will have to be paid out over the next twenty years and to the more prosperous ukraine is the more it will have to pay to the people who have and institutions that have landed it money. the more last month it is the more it has the bat. that's right because it's basically the system the repayment schedule involves our person a group higher percentage of the g.d.p. as the g.d.p. rises until the entire sum is paid off and i know christine legarde was convicted

in a french court but i thought she said the m.f. was changing not as much as some people would like i guess joe biden is in the news in the united states for his twenty twenty attempt at beating donald trump and his detractors are centered on the fact that there's a video evidence of him literally dragged manipulate ukraine with u.s. taxpayer dollars we have victoria nuland admission of five billion dollars of u.s. taxpayer money going to propaganda the soros company international and a source foundation hundred eighty million dollars from one nine hundred ninety in those days what is the extent of u.s. manipulation of what's going on in ukraine today most political analysts in ukraine assume it is extensive. and that only it's probably exaggerated and i see little interest the united states would have little interest in arguing that it is not that influential because the very hint

that this or that candidate has the alleged support of the united states is and nothing to sway. dissuade how people vote how people respond so there's little incentive to deny this although perhaps the war in the east could be used by a candidate for electoral advantage we don't get much news really from gone bad in the east or think there's a horse will try and use the threat from russia more vociferously. ahead of april twenty first i don't think he can be much more or will sit for us than he has been his position on the bus region is very clear namely that there has to be a military victory against russia or or something that can be sold

effectively as a as a defeat of russia. in order to retrieve a reabsorb those regions and there should and there will be no need to go she ations as he puts it on on their knees with ukrainians on their knees. zielinski has said that he by contrast is willing to work with anyone and is willing to negotiate for peace in the bus so those are rather starkly different approaches to the east and to russia we know have a purported evidence from the former the queen the in secret service an operative on the other hand be a vessel of playing the cia to plan sabotage in eastern ukraine do you think the united states is is there or let alone the i.m.f. obviously. and that it has to be very very careful so it is not visible in kiev or

a little known in the donbass or other areas of this i think it is part of the proper function of intelligence agencies no matter what. country they belong to to gather information. accurate information about the country that they are observing. and if they're doing that job and doing it in an unobtrusive way again no matter what the country then they're doing their job properly and i assumed that that is happening i have no knowledge of such such events but i certainly wouldn't be surprised and i would assume that they're not the only intelligence agency in that and other conflict regions trying to gain information and perhaps with additional assignments to influence

events in one direction or another so if a leader does come to power in ukraine on the twenty first and wants to start negotiations over donbass with mutual talks with the moscow's people what do you think washington's reaction would be to that as was washington we know to talk about to washington's arguably trump and those not so keen on his reproachful and mosco i'm not sure i can see advisers to the administration being torn on the one hand you can't argue for a continuation of the war because that would be warmongering on the other hand you have to argue that the peace can only be under certain conditions that are notably advantageous to ukraine and punishing to russia

those two aspirations may not be reconcilable in which case. the new president would have to make a decision as to whether he is pursuing ukraine's interests first or washington's address first president like matter of fact here and that of the show will be back of that they would raise or make it a longer be u.k. prime minister don't make it up by social media the on topic. us veterans who come back from war often tell the same stories. were going after

the people who were killing civilians they were not interested in the wellbeing of their own soldiers either there already is several generations of them so i just got this memo from a certain branches officer says we're going to attack and destroy the government and seven countries in five years americans pay for the wars with their money others with their lives if we were willing to go into harm's way and willing to risk being killed for a war and surely we can risk some discomfort for an easy for. a comedian who has won the first round of ukraine's presidential election. doesn't have strong policy positions maybe that was his greatest appeal though he made it clear corruption is ukraine's biggest challenge fixing ukraine's very serious problems is no laughing matter.

young elephants have come to. us basically brutal putting incidents because sadly the death and voter. i do believe they laugh and smile i see it's a nice little ones they all say so they express some changes. the game. but the thing the number means they've matter us is over one trillion dollars in debt more than ten white collar crime happened. did. eighty five percent of global will you long for the old bridge the six percent of the world market rose thirty percent somewhat one hundred to five hundred three first record per second and that we rose to twenty thousand dollars. china's building two point one billion dollars

you industrial park but don't let the numbers overrule. the only number you need to remember one one business you know for the mid one and only one but. they. were. i.

in what's being touted as a key milestone and we're so german relations mercedes owner dialer is opening a new plant near moscow. as spain struggles with the number of migrants arriving by sea smuggling gangs are cashing in on the refugee crisis an investigative journalist shares with us a rare interview with one of the human traffickers involved. two thousand and five to four thousand you. started to shift to push from rim the book into your books probably at the phone. also this hour the u.s. supreme court turns down.