day and in your life it is a staple of any presidential campaign in ukraine usually resulting in the same old politicians clinging to power for another five years is that likely to hold when the ukrainians go to the polls again on april twenty first to choose between the incumbent and the inquiry they want to discuss that i'm now joined by ivan kitchen off key political scientist at the university of ottawa professor could you not give good to talk to you thank you very much for the time thank you now i think it's now clear that in the run of the ukrainians will have to choose between. is a pretty remarkable choice in many ways what does it tell you about the aspirations of the people about the state of the ukrainian society that this election has been narrowed down to these two very very different characters. of the first. government

because he came the second place five behind the presidential. and as a professional. politics until this is basically. called. who is complete politics now almost all western observers blamed a comedian who shot to fame after playing a president in the popular t.v. series almost everybody chide him for blurring the line between political reality and dramatic fiction is he really the first to do that isn't the ukrainian political reality almost always stranger than fiction. in the politics. of watching the hollywood movies because hollywood movies. you do

not know what's going to happen that you have a major developments you have a big just like my dog months ago there's some muscle but you know i also have a element of calm idea like a comedian lead in elections and i think you have combination of both as well and you have the violence a lot of developments which would not be possible to have in hollywood movies and in contrast to where you with movies it's also you do not have a happy ending then to be expected so this is why i politics is so interesting and that's why i said this and i tell my students a fascinating about this is a very fascinating subject i think some extent it also shows how in very deep political norms are in ukraine because the character is the landscape played is not superman he's just a normal decent guy which is taken as fiction whereas candidates who promise to increase pageants three fold or two and the war tomorrow are considered as real and

truthful isn't that strange i think they're like basic here. like like actually just basically might infection and the same was promoted by not only by the landscape but also by a person. many are as a presidential candidates because of their support. on television which is that they. had them promoted by television channels who. are owned by oil and gas and so is the only kind it's very difficult to advance to the top up places in politics bizarre that supported the bizarre access to television so this is one of the reasons why you have the most of such a political act that's in the demagogues and the landscape is just the latest there are those of such success of politician who have basically his i feel based almost entirely on the television and he is fictional the president. you can solution

i heard many western observers say that selenski popularity is just another example of the anti establishment trend that we are seeing in many countries around the world but even really our people found out with establishment politics or with politics full stop when i think of. those key is example of a populous politician similar to. this comedian in the party joins a government in italy this insists this is. the lansky is also costs himself as a. politician as a new politician who with a challenge all day live and in his. living will see the scum of the pollution in the city as he actually. cast himself as a basic kind of. teacher who became president basically was able to unite you can overcome and this is the form you got a few politicians from

a different sections and also he is also famous assuming that he basically. execute the parliament basically and he is on the hands. of the members of his on the council this is a message basically try people to kind of step to spend billions of you can petitions and a populist image of himself now there is there's also speculations now where there is the lansky should accept. a challenge and debate he him publicly and when i think about it what comes to mind is the famous can it be nixon debate which had pretty much the same dynamic an older more experienced more anxious insider or versus a younger a friendlier and more inexperienced outsider. if. indeed debate one another it is at all clear who is going to emerge as the winner of this. t.v.

battle i see this is a main problem a facility because here on his election campaign almost entirely on the image a fictional image of himself as a president if you came on television shows and in his comedy shows which asked that onstage basically and so he basically the text which was prepared and. and in that shiela debates in the i guess bush anchor here could be a likely lose or make a major kind of a mistakes made significant impact his appeal this is to pasture they didn't excel in the debates so i think for this it isn't zelinsky did not appear for two presidential debates in the first stone and he basically also the same for the second town because he is not a very. common for confident in his ability to challenge against bush unca in the television debates of his out actually population and bizarre. kind of ability to

control the message and the script that a message is this is one of the problems for the future. professor mentioned before is keyes lack of political experience is that really sad share competitive advantage in the ukrainian context i mean experience he is rivals have lots of it but isn't that also a major turn off for the voters i think this is his because because in the fast show presidential candidates like bush i'm going to mushroom call lansky is a new politician he is a new personality in the u.k. you know politics and a lot of you can you know. this isn't the biz that exists in politicians like polish mcor who was in politics since one thousand nine hundred something which some call who was also in politics and. they hope to have a new kind of new policies new challenge new politics new leaders a few k. and i think this is helpful for him this is

a moment that he is actually because i think the baggage without any of the negative connotations which i say it is existing put this and in particular push i'm going to mushroom cloud and he also knows how to work the camera how to work the people how to be a likable don't you think that he's a profession that he's current profession to reach many bill as that as a disadvantage to him can actually prove very helpful in not only earning the recognition of the voters but also keeping it yes i think this is also helpful because his propriety is based just significantly extent on his image as a politician as president of ukraine who who he plays on the television the show they put on television show on them. in the u.k. and pollution channels owned by or you got it and. was able basically should present himself in such a fictional image in the very positive light. that one thousand politicians in newquay the negative light using this foam out of pollution but i think this might

be also a problem for him because he did look actually. campaign you know elections before elections he actually was using was a script with appearances by their advance so he still did not know how he would basically act and what he going to do in the kind of a deal things of like a press conference or during the bush asians and you never answer which would require him to decipher the spot and not true pay the help of illusion channels and he actually gave one television through before actually elections and this interview was delayed by six seconds on his television channel so this is kind of i think the indication of major problems that he has now i see him that this is not just his problem but in general a problem for ukrainian politicians because ukraine has as you mentioned before a pretty in of innovators pretty rambunctious politics but. when it comes to governance it's rather

a little. uninspiring why do you think it's so difficult to translate this vibrancy into real and good governance i think is because you know politics is basically a competition between the different you got groups and say. if i thought power because public gives them. basically immunity from prosecution and also able i believe them. can throw all the government agencies basic into the business and should become what it is and the only do politicians. like bush of course or they are they presented us or for you guys like selenski and. and i think this is a major issue for you can so and so governance a lot of political promises doing made you know action campaigns actually never implemented and this happened this push on to himself and this might happen this is the lens yes well so you can but this might be actually

a disappointment disappoint them if it's let's get with ministry become president for a few. now compared to the russians ukrainians have a fairly short political fuse i mean both unocal bache and president before him were sort of kicked out of office four or five years after people voted for them whoever secures the april twenty first vote how long do you think he will have until the people will get impatient i think this is will be very soon as this happens you should go soon after the other civilizations this also happened this bush uncle quite soon after he was elected to the first in just thousand and fourteen after my down. government after my down led government obviously and you can so this was kind of typical a phenomenon for you you know politicians and one of the issues is actually what kind of. media controls they're going to have because collusion place very

important though and if. as alaska would be able to utilize such television tell aussie luke and he might be able to postpone this. but in there you know that about this is usually the solution and this his policy is if he would be elected by i suppose that if you look at and this is what the second it will say he leads in the poland and with the have a like the two with elections in the if they would not be a council on this up with all that professor at kitchen else do we have to take a very short break now but we will be back in just a few moments stay tuned. i do think the numbers. they've matter to us are the one trillion dollars in debt

more than ten white collar crime happy day. eighty five percent of global wealth he longs to be ultra rich. six percent world market thirty percent some with one hundred to five hundred three per second per second and if we rose to twenty thousand dollars. china is building two point one billion dollars ai industrial park but don't let the numbers over. the only number you need to remember one one business you know ford commit one and only boom. welcome back to worlds apart with ivan kitchen i'll skip right little scientist add the university up out about professor kitchen all scheme many observers including

yourselves. no did the geographic distribution of the votes traditionally or historically in ukraine the west is far more active in voting but i think this time around it's pretty even the with the east how do you interpret that. i think this is a very important issue and they must push for kenya politics and they actually are by this and patient doctor this ill patient and published books and many articles and papers on this topic of his own political divisions in the u.k. and the last round of elections in ukraine shows again the basic divisions in support for different politicians but also significant change in the. of what their participation in different lesions so let's measure the climate less than you think compatriots than you can compare to previous elections and i since this can be out there but they show the fact that a lot of ukrainians from western part of u.k. moved to as

a count this in particular poland and the czech republic because of that mickey says because of lack of jobs and a lack of employment like a few in the after after this. the new government came to power so this is like explanation that this happened in terms of what their participation in the last elections in the first i want there was a kind of collections when we look at the electoral map and which province is preferred which candidate what struck me was that ukraine no longer looks like a split country a country split between east and west sure there were two provinces that. voted for pressure to vote two provinces in these that voted for boycott but by and large that map was colored by green by one color is that. perhaps a herald of things to come or is it just graphic illusion because from that map on

the i think you posted to you on the your twitter account ukraine really looks like a united country. yes i think it looks more united compared to what was the case in the old presidential elections and all the parliament elections since ninety and ninety one which i study it is my in my books and my as a publications in the papers but i still since it's this major issue in terms of additional dimensions you can because if you look in chile up of. what it was the last elections it's super simple to see that the best and you can do this specifically and july sixth i believe you know what that much more for possession call and the mushroom cloud compared to use them if you can and so i was a part of u.k. vision of what that part of you can be sure there must be a flaw. zelinsky and in the boss there was a victory for a boycott who was. different policies from bush uncle in terms of his election

platform so this is actually a major issue and. actually you can there's also the why that because the boss said by just going from the boss which is the focus you see that form you can the help of national media intervention. did not actually participate in elections the same applies to kamya and i was a major production agent which was the next bash since since then my down even so this is a very posh legion which was when you first in all other actions since ninety ninety one but it did not participate in this round of elections now i think it's also very clear from the polls that the voters in the west and the east of the country have some would different priorities people in the west though who are far more insulated from the conflict and don't boss tend to be more hawkish while the people in the east are far more in favor of negotiating the. war do you expect any change in the dynamics of that conflict the conflict in dun boss after the elections. this possibility and i think this is if the landscape will

become president if you can think of a big if because of possibilities of his actions can be consul for the south that but if he would be a letter this president of ukraine which is very likely based on public opinion polls this was a. strong possibility of some changes that is some changes in the terms of the conflict in the bus but i do not expect as this issue would be a result of the conflict would be a result the cost martha who is going to be in government to feel good and they are not going to make any major. of concessions. this said by just. making a deal of his russia which would basically take away some of the feel if you can all that the boss and the same applies to k. me aside do they expect that even as a lens. his election which might lead to changes in the u.k. new politics and policy too as the bus will be able to resolve this conflict but i

think the big issue is participation of the united states because you know i think they still has basically from the influence on you can do in politics and still would have would be a major factor in this is when they can if you can petition simply do the lansky if you would become president if you can now he's already paintings lenski as especially a crime and stooge which i think is the biggest fool or in the context of the ukrainian politics do you think it's believable enough to turn off voters i think this is where you come to that you're. on such basic information and just propaganda which reminds me a lot of studying this claims that anybody who was opposed to a study and policy was a father an agent and so on the biz basically the policies of the soviet union were

the same applies to you can and this did not welcome in terms of was alinsky. zelinsky doing the election campaign for the first hour and he was able to be pushed out of a significantly and person could do the same business all of his opponents. and the national claim also a question of push on courses so this message does not there's a make the music a no what is because to significant extent it became discouraged at that because of its case and you mentioned that it became discredited though that the majority of the ukrainian voters and i want to remind our viewers that just a few. years ago could barely string a sentence together in ukraine but i think now he clearly bangs on ukrainian after the nationalism as the central pillar of his campaign why do you think he's relying on it to such an extent because it's clearly hurting ukraine's ties not only with its neighbor to the east but also bit its neighbors to the west the poles for

example you know i think here he wanted basically to win the elections as a second now and by appealing to his base of the most nationalistic but if you can society and this was successful to some extent because he was a humanist actually a church in the second town by basic it there i can you came by. help of such extreme policies. and the election. issues like language in the boss of conflict with russia and also issue of illusion but he did not actually get a lot of support outside. so here actually he lost even though they know that in the west and you can actually this is my native vision and you know many of our citizens if you can the. kind of which i'm not but actually agents but actually orthodox the orthodox christian nations and the u.k. don't speak english so his message basically was not that way successful for the second part of elections and this is actually

a very consistent visit my site is that public opinion polls in the u.k. shows that you can do more there's not support in such extreme. policies national policies even so this place is where promoted by push by the media in you can after my down do you think you will have to change he's trying to jump speaking i'm talking about pressure and could he think he will have to change his strategy in order to perhaps increase the level of support on the eve of the runoff hero and as you said here he would. basically i think support us off as alinsky but there's the same time he also. the basic is that as alinsky is a national agent and the puppet of a column i ski so his to look like it's a poem of this divisive issues about that but i think he is evil not the give him a major boost before a second talent so in my opinion. his are just some extreme measures maybe if we do violence or use ations in what they're chewing this up elections

such a council actions this based on the possibility of such evidence if he would lose elections because as always he is. again you might be worth a thought but you could get four or corruption far as a kind of offenses that would be a bailout he found after he would lose policy i think it has a lot of incentives much room for selenski in the. contest so this is why it is still is this is a very big issue and we can see if this happened a month. before the second allowance or do the second thousand flexions you mentioned that the west and the united states in particular still play a significant role in the ukrainian politics do you think it's in the interest of the western stakeholders to allow poroshenko any sort of. provocation to boost his electoral chances because from what i can read it looks like western

partners of ukraine are also interested in seeing these both of these elections to proceed in the most transparent and fair fashion am i wrong on that. and i think that again is our big questions about the western policy towards u.k. because the best i'm going was the fact the support of the violent oversaw of of the u.k. and government the government of the un the college which was a partial government but also. kind of also left to say this is on you guys and this was supported by the opinion by the united states of the fact that. there's this obviously was this help of a. i don't protest this least by elements of my down position fight against asians so the question is what would be policy over the worst if a person called the teacher there's a jew and whalen's or you can select and so on even so the thought because the western governments is that they support democracy and fear. but first the

elections and you can show that this was not the case because of evidence of thought or. two and of all such council actions it is a state accident this incident. came in a bitch so this was i think because she was the best employees who would be if the if there was still support here actions you can because of less than i was not that i have to do not support actually democratic developments after my dad. oversaw government well on the eve of these elections the g seven ambassadors in key of road then unprecedented letter i think to the ukrainian authorities expressing their concern about the role of far right extremists in the ukrainian politics and i know that you've been concerned about this issue for many years you've investigated the. massacre of two thousand and fourteen but up until recently there was very very little recognition of the of the role that the extremists play in the

politics of ukraine don't you think that this belated recognition that it is truly belated but don't you think that it still points to the fact that perhaps politicians in the west that waking up to what kind of forces they brought to power in the ukraine i think this is again a very big issue a letter from just seven of those basic officials that they recognize this publicly because the defense is such a such a slogan films of i thought it was the night in u.k. and specifically also by a western. the governments and by western media and now i think it may be or they did chill late because feith editions become be a powerful in ukraine politics they become integrated into government of ukraine they become integrated in the military in the national guard in the police and security service and this is part of the should now as a help our basic get over so you can government this help of his alliance of all

you've got people that this means so this will be again the still of. before i'm off says the second elections because i found i can still. hurt you but i won't. say they got as passionate politician and this may be again the beacon still see if. they are say in the u.k. your politics but i think even the. last few would manage to win elections seal a fight with what they've basically put imo and the basic i just because a few films of such fine i think musicians so this is i think. just have a dust too i think this is obviously. still better to be late as i'm not at all well i'd bet it's a bit late then never as as you know we see here in russia anyway we have to leave it here i really appreciate your being with us today and sharing your perspective

thank you very much. i know our viewers to keep this conversation going in our social media pages and hope to see you again same place same time here on worlds apart. welcome to max kaiser survival guide. looking forward to. what happens to pensions in britain. watched kaiser report.

elephants have come to us after. this basically brutal plotting incidents because sadly the baby elephants often do see their mothers not only be killed by the also be cut off and. i do believe the elephant smiled i see it in his little lands they are patient express and change says. he.

the secretary general of nato is cheered in the us congress has he sets out military plans to counter the supposed press from russia. smuggling gangs cash in on the flow of markets from north africa to spain and investigative journalist shares with us a rare interview with one of the traffickers involved. every person you can. tell the fact your four thousand people you the totality of fifty per cent of. your loop of. that industrial port in the south of france faces a pollution crisis with locals raising the alarm over soaring cancer rates. the latest on the story said to r.t. dot com stay with us now for cross talk discussing the presidential election in

ukraine join us again in one hour's time.