you. have a seventieth birthday candles and. some calls on russia to withdraw its military advisors from. social media join twitter lists the french government advertising campaign. against. boeing says he's sorry for the three hundred forty six lives lost in two crashes involving. as the company struggles to. the u.n. secretary general. to show restraint. forces. get

the latest on those stories on our web site. up next a former islamic extremist. discussing the. young people join us again and now it's time for the latest headlines. for welcome to sophia go and sophie shevardnadze one of the ice is a fairly the same laid upon nigeria played a major role in pushing the terrorists back is outsourcing the name of the game when it comes to modern conflicts will ask was classrooms dimension director africa and veteran soldier for hire. mercenaries have been the mainstay of african. as for

decades having a decisive impact in sierra leone and nigeria and other theaters of conflict and while the media portrays them as dangerous cash hungry brutes local government still has soldiers of fortune to get them out of tight spots. companies more efficient than regular national news on this continent private military contract is a viable solution to endless regional conflicts and could their actions help to bring peace to water on hotspots. called list glass and managing director at programs africa and executive outcomes that are and welcome to the show it's great to have you with us because you run your own security company now after having spent years in the special forces and then reached fame as a member of mercenary unit executive outcomes there have been t.v. programs about you a character based on you it was played by leonardo di caprio and blood diamond are

you using all his fame and attention to bring more clients to promote the business is a good thing right so we all get older o.b.'s the end we followed the film career process let me just rectify something from the start not so much special forces units as if all units close but not the same that's where i spent my military career and yes after that i joined executive outcomes and i had a couple of years with them and after that are for my own company and then carried on from there and now for the last eleven twelve years it's been pogroms africa shoulder i'm a director quite happy to do normal commercial. mostly part of security work. all right but what about the media question do you like the media attention does it help you get climate clients is it a good for but is a good thing for business. no i don't like media shy and so many people in my in my business and i have on one of the older guys around and i feel that we should

have a voice and if it's a sensible said the questions we should answer them and we should speak out for our industry and also for that of the private military business because we feel that has a right to exist as a place of modern business and politics and somebody should answer those questions and be on the media so here i am reluctant lee but quite willingly yes so why is it though because other mercenaries from your generation that i talked to and i've spoken to quite a few they said that the media always portrayed them in a negative light do you feel that things as well do you feel that the public opinion is against you because you're considered a mercenary well well well thought out well balanced media will follow the story regardless unfortunately in the early days of executive outcomes. there was a a more sinister or

a more politically driven agenda death planted stories this is well documented you have an ballers of the search and the subsequent book from there. so to a degree executive outcomes was the victim of a smear campaign which is different from good reporting on the other side of the coin that we have enjoyed fair and honest reporting for example the b.b.c. reported on their presence in sierra leone back and ninety five ninety six ninety seven in a very favorable and correct manner because at the end of that conflict all parties that was in the conflict was tried it was investigated by the special court. executive else was given a clean bill of health and this was well reported by the b.b.c. and was picked up the news media so yes there's good and bad we have to live with it that's that's what of the world that we live in so the private military companies on the continent like pilgrim's africa that you're running because

they're all based on people like you south african or are the original army veterans is there a new generation coming to replace you guys are there are young people interested in this kind of work. i maybe just make another distinction quickly pogroms africa is part of the british pogroms group and we have commercial security for well over a dish that we pay our taxes we do nothing that can be considered to be but at the type of work. but yes to answer the second part of your question in private military companies they certainly ease a new generation back in the day it was an exclusive small group most commonly known as the so everybody knew each other and to a degree people understood that if a station of people and because they're small at the action in iraq and afghanistan that led to a whole generation of new young short soldiers that left the services and went into

the private security work and many of them found their way into private military companies the market was flooded not necessarily with quality people many of the guys were good but many of the guys were not so good and some of them were got kicked out of the military and also migrated towards a career in the private security industry so. to be honest modern security persons have to catch up with that in the world and properly bait. candidates and employees and go through the same process as any corporate entity would be studies to determine if the candidate sitting in front of them for the job interview is in fact qualified is in fact experienced and he's infected aren't going for the job. so. i can see that you know. you're so experienced in the military world and in private military what how do you recruit people do you look for physical attributes first and foremost or mental strength or moral fiber how

can you tell without combat tasking that a person is solid reliable hireable. well this again two sides to this this answer the first is the commercial security business that is of international scale and it s. clients that a list of companies all over the world. you know there's a new international standard for security companies it's called the p a c one standard united nations that have been in this client facing it is all about compliance and so on of that process we have to be compliant with the way we recruit their office and know whether we recruit the security guard or whether we recruit the director so we go through the same recruitment process as any corporate entity would go through when it comes to p.m.c. or other let me let me delve down a little bit into the sort of slightly murkier world of but at the contracts that was handed down by dodgy governments all by dodgy entities and it's word of mouth normally they would approach somebody that they trust or they would be they would

be i have a solution it's to them by a entity that is what it is that offshoring to consist of a former military personnel and those guys with the word of mouth they would use social media or phone calls emails and they would gather the guards pretty quickly . in general they were that it could people they know but if it's a large contract there's a lot of guys needed and obviously sometimes the quality slips a little bit. so you mentioned that your company mostly does defense where can you said that you make a distinction between companies that only do protection jobs and those that also go on this sensitive jing in this working on a company that can mount offensive operations and more fun to be chopper hopping after i don't know boko haram going to bush than escorting an oil executive from the airport to the rake and back. there's all sorts of differences between a commercial security company and the p.m.c. . a commercial security company delivers

a wide range of services that borders on the just eco services outsourcing services technical services for example the installation of security measures around a office of c.c.t.v. cameras fencing lights it provides man guarding this is a god the front office guy that sits at a security post or somebody that patrols a large yard with a sense now on the other hand the p.m.c. will often engage in combat and that for me is the p.m.c. is don't necessarily engage in combat p.m.c. use private military companies can get involved in the back end. but at the. proper but at least proper armies across the world in a support role but pm sees are sometimes also involved in combat training and then in some cases they get involved in combat and that for me is the main distinction if you ask me whether i miss the days that i left the army and i'm in part of a private company i think i can combat yes it's

a brotherhood and you do miss. and it is special and the bonds that you form back then stays with you for ever but as you can see i'm getting older and greyer now so that is not my number one priority in life anymore every encounter customers that try to misrepresent your mission in any way you're interviewing south right there to work. oh no. it's the store it's the stuff the stories of fictional made off to be honest when a p.m.c. engages with a customer. the contractual requirements are normally laid bare long before any work is done before any money changes hands during a mission or during a deployment or during the duration of a contract yes that acquirements may change but being tricked into a change it's never have after that in any operation or any kind of conflict i was involved in. normally they would be a bit of give and take normally they would be add on expectations from the customer

sometimes objectives are met by the p.m.c. not necessarily a visible clear or the specific objectives that the client wanted so that would be a process of negotiation it is a business off the dole. time something when p.m.c. is have to defeat an enemy on the ground they act like classic army stay start with an air onslaught then finish them on the ground one of the techniques pam said boy it's only in collateral yes when the pm seeing gauges and combat it's there's no difference between that and any other armed force engaging in combat the fact that they for some reason work for a civilian company or private company does that they are on a contract break makes no difference once the bullets start flying the same tactics apply and. in each and every case that i have been involved in that i know of the mcs took extraordinary measures to avoid collateral damage specifically the targeting or even the accidental harm to civilians in most cases they were they

were greatly successful because they said that as an object of a a standing army. that attacks or bombs or target will consider collateral damage but in the political way it's not their prime concern whereas for a p.m.c. it is very much so often in the planning for most of your combat operations for a few see where i was involved. the effect and the impact on civilians was front and foremost in the planners minds and often times when there was a chance of civilians getting hurt the plan was not executed was modified in order to avoid that. like any private business in concert as those things that is best for business having civilians hurt or killed or having a property damage that shouldn't be damage is definitely bad for business so therefore of p.m.c. sometimes considers things in a different way than a standing military would. we'll take a short break right now we'll be back discussing outsourcing the war to private

companies was called was class. graeme's africa and battering gun for hire stay with us.

banks guys are fine it will survive they say maybe the girl i'd. love to visit this is essential public support dying a problem is i don't call them either so stop. china has arrived in europe in a very big way and not everyone in the west welcomes this italy's support of china's belgian road initiative is a game changer the washington consensus that has dominated the world for the past seven decades is being challenged to turn to the east continues.

and we're back with co-host claassen had of programs africa security company and former member of executive outcomes talking about his life as a gun for hire around the role of private military companies on the modern battlefield. so you want convention bans the use of mercenaries while civilian governments see using it as a dirty word and yet we see that time and time again mercenaries come to their rescue us saying lay on it for instance against boko haram exciter why are private military contractors more effective than un peacekeepers or national armies for that matter only kind of comes down to a innovate that makes but the three strategy and tactics mix with business

principles so that's where the p.m.c. has an advantage over an army like we called it that. they would respond for example to a client request in the quickest most efficient way possible political considerations not so for much almost in the pending business principles are you getting paid by the hour that you would make sure that you are as efficient as you can be in the hour so that's first and foremost where. the mcs can be more efficient but at these i have to qualify there is no p.m.c. on this planet that can fight the major war that's not the point and that's never way fumes he's comes in at this point in time going into the foreseeable future pm sees provides a limit that it's going to fission solution as part of a larger broader solution for example you mentioned backcourt on the other ninety eight and i happen to be energy and effort to understand what happened here the p.m.c. that came. he was not contracted to win the war the p.m.c.

that came here was contracted a unit and to create that from scratch and then to go into combat and achieve limited objectives so as to show the nigerian but at the someone you should move to get them on the front foot to get some momentum going and to achieve certain limited objectives i believe they were contracted initially only to come in and the rescue to chibok go as you remember the girls that were kidnapped from their school and that mission been changed eventually became slightly broader in scope but when they have a the idea that they would stay here for years and fight the war that is meant to be followed by the national army they were for a specific mission and that's why some people make the mistake and report the romney budget in soldiers a brave and physically capable fight and quite willing to fight so that affected some of the best in the world i fought with them i can i can say that however they leadership has failed and possibly the ship as the chin the right that the logistical capabilities are not cheated but at the end they training has been

lacking has been lacking going so they had a p.m.c. can come in because of the slack very quickly at least all the training standards and doctrine at the same time help them with their logistical supply and procurement so that i things of all the things that will method and make a difference teach them how to use that help them to deploy that and then step back and step out of this out of the picture so the pm sees it all is a limit that i'll be at a very effective one. so nigeria continues its struggle with alcohol iran which is now seemingly split into two factions your former colleagues from meo have put the haraam on the wrong three years ago working for the nigerian government but saying that the group is still here where their efforts not out how would you assess. well first of all the full money zero as you say second album has this band at the long time ago the company that was contracted to come and help the nigerian government.

was a different company some of the personnel of things were the same but believe me very few on the whole this was not the from company at the from a bunch of people and i know because i met some of them and i spoke to them and obviously we interact on social media and by e-mail and so forth. that they do a good job they did a brilliant job they just passed a key well considering the constraints of time and money they were given just a part of the budget that they were promised and they were given a very short period of time as a matter of fact over the simba to mobilize and you know mobilization like that would be a logistical if and logistics means arms and ammunition nobody sells arms and ammunition over these the private company everybody goes on holiday so they pulled it off and let it go i say off and let it go because unfortunately due to financial constraints they confine themselves to base and then they left they withdrew out of nigeria it's a great pity that they were not given the opportunity to finish what they were contracted for i believe they would have saved hundreds of thousands of lines and i

g.d.s. northeast would be in the politically far more stable condition than it is right now and like a lot of other militants in africa boko haram is operating in an area where it's is the to cross the border and fleeing to chalk nigeria cameron is facing too much pressure can nigeria even deal with it on its own. no i don't think so nigeria needs a concentrated effort. it has to be collaborative effort between each year to come over and chat at least and not see any and all of these other countries needs help . most of them but at the hawke back to conventional days there are all the best of the structures the way they teach the soldiers and train them is a come in a conventional manner unfortunately they are facing a counterinsurgency or an insurgency in a me and they need to adopt a counterinsurgency strategy and tactics and equipment and formations they need help with that they need to be assistance in order to restructure the material the

manpower on the ground fantastic brave they're stronger physically capable they nationalistic they are out of their countries they will find that they need to be helped how to find and they need to be quick critic the untrained correcting. i read that back in sierra leone executive outcomes was so successful because it was able to get help from local militias who knew the areas and the people in the side against alcohol rom do you see much trust between the military operating in the country's north east and the locals. well that's an important decision for governments that are faced with an enemy like all caught on has to make and that is whether through in the civilian help officially in some countries like sierra leone it was done successfully dillo call hunting societies was organized enough that i'm going to the group and a part of that was placed on the executive outcomes controlled and utilized video activity the same can happen here but first of all there's to be a political decision by the political leadership of the country are we going to arm

civilians and put them in harm's way in order to supply and support the military if they do make that decision and however wide or limited that decision may be in those people can be invaluable as a matter of fact right now the fight is kind of to boycott and it's offspring by local militias that are simply armed with shotguns and deal creational like a forty seven but these people are fighting to protect their lands these villages and the people so they are effective in what they are doing in a counterinsurgency you know i think the scope for that to be organized well controlled well trained well mobilized and it will certainly add value. look at how wrong pledged allegiance to i says a long time ago but do you see and i assess progress in nigeria start this as a real possibility at this stage or is it now more like a jihadi pipe dream. look i'm sure there's a technical difference between isis but for all our swell all quiet on this island

why not. if you take a step back and you look at the problem it isn't a militant islamist problem they each have a unique character uniquely theirs and maybe slightly the princes and tactics and approach to the issue but it's a common enemy and it starts with all the way across the region now and it should be seen as that so i have no idea what that isis with the study says so he hadn't called himself that although they were right on the back of the already established islamist but at the movements you tell me there's an enemy and is destabilizing the state killing a lot of innocent people need to be stopped welcome hieron reportedly uses child tortures and so does the revolutionary revolutionary united front the group you faced off with in sierra leone did you ever have to engage a unit that includes children i mean how tough is it for a soldier to face them on a battlefield is a person and his size the child's first soldier second or vice versa.

ok in africa young people as being combatants for evah in sierra leone we found that immediately. it's really hard for the soldier in a context of choice in a battle situation to distinguish the age of the opponent all the sees is a shadow with a gun firing at him and he's completely within his rights and it is internationally has the right to defend himself or to attack that object and kill that person turns out to be a twelve year old with like a forty seven it's heartbreaking but unfortunately unavoidable it has happened and it will continue to happen because these are not standing armies these are not people that play by the rules yes they recruit children so they are not responsible for my age of atrocities and they form a significant part of the combat force of all caught on when i saw a double tragedy there's nothing to be done to avoid that it's a long term solution kids belong in school not under arms you know conventional

armies at this point having going high tech would drown satellites out there hardware in place is this high tech apparatus also available to play mcs are they using the latest sound of hatter's or do you that just make do with what you've got no what astonishes me is where military technology has gone over the last a cradle to grave knowledge the fact that a man can sit in a complain that in the continental united states and direct the drone to kill an enemy alfredo in the world at the push of about them is amazing p.m.c. is different the two don't have access to that level of supposed sophisticated all moments the best the p.m.c. can hope for is a working g.p.s. . perhaps good idea or shot like a mini creations and perhaps a little bit better all moments than what the enemy asked but the often times it's even match i k forty seven s heavy machine guns and tank weapons perhaps the odd helicopter or fixed wing aircraft or two that makes them different. thank you very

much for this interview different to have heard your inside or talking to. africa and better run up executive outcomes discussing his live with us soldier for hire on the future of privatized that's it for this edition of i will see you next time. for the wounds. and.

you know world of big. law and conspiracy it's time to wake up to dig deeper to hit the stories that made stream media refuses to tell more than ever we need to be smart we need to stop slamming the door on the back and shouting past each other it's time for critical thinking it's time to fight for the middle for the troops the time is now for watching closely watching the hawks.

yes basically brutal budging incidence because sadly the baby elephants often do see their mother as not only be killed but also be cut up and. i do believe the elephant smile i see it in these little ones. for the expression changes. the game. this is a story of one of africa's giants. know his teeth on that shot. on his neck isn't that a long. list giant is rather modest and keeps

a low profile that's not him either. people are often scared of this particular joint but he is nowhere near as dangerous as that one. is a friendly giant every day with the possible exception of weekends he saves human lives day is. his name is isaac a giant rat. and i like his brothers and sisters he was born with a passion for travel. isaac's birthplace was a special training center in tanzania.