go home sophie shevardnadze when i says affiliate descended upon nigeria mercenaries played a major role in pushing to terrorise spec is outsourcing the name of the game when it comes to modern conflicts will ask. to mention director at programs africa and veteran soldier for hire. mercenaries have been the mainstay of africa for decades having a decisive impact in sierra leone. and other theaters of conflict and while the media portrays them as cash hungry brutes local government still has soldiers of fortune to get them out of tight spots. companies more efficient than regular national on this continent private military contract is a viable solution to this regional conflicts and could their actions help to bring peace to water on hotspots. cold with class and managing director at programs

africa and executive outcomes veteran welcome to the show it's great to have you with us because you run your own security company now after having spent years in the special forces and then reached fame as a member of mercenary unit executive outcomes there have been t.v. programmes about you a character based on you it was played by leonardo di caprio and blood diamond are you using all his fame and attention to bring more clients to promote the business is a good thing. right so we all get older obviously and we followed the film career process let me just make the fire something from the stuff not so much special forces units as airborne units close but not the same that's where i spent my military career and yes off of it i joined executive outcomes and i had a couple of years with them and also that i formed my own company and then carried on from there and now for the last eleven twelve years it's been programs africa

which i'm a show that i'm the director quite happy to do normal commercial and domestic type of security work. all right but what about the media question do you like the media attention that help you get climate clients is that a good is a good thing for business no i don't like media shy and so many people in my in my business however i'm one of the older guys around and i feel that we should have a voice and if it's a sensible so the questions we should answer them and we should speak out for our industry and also for that of the private military business because we feel that that has a right to exist as a place of modern business and politics and somebody should answer those questions and be on the media so here i am reluctant to leave but quite willingly yes so why is it though because other mercenaries from your generation that i talk to and i've spoken to quite a few they said that the media always portrays them in

a negative light do you feel that things as well do you feel that the public opinion is against you because you're considered a mercenary. well well thought out well balanced media will follow the story regardless unfortunately in the early days of executive outcomes. there was a a more sinister or a more politically driven agenda death planted stories this is well documented given ballers of the search and the subsequent book from there. so to a degree executive outcomes was the victim of a smear campaign which is different from good reporting on the other side of the coin we have enjoyed fair and honest reporting for example the b.b.c. reported on their presence in sierra leone that can ninety five ninety six ninety seven in a very favorable and correct manner because at the end of that conflict all parties that was in the conflict was tried it was investigated by the special court.

and executive elton's was given a clean bill of health and this was well reported by the b.b.c. and it was picked up by the news media so yes there's good and bad we have to live with it that's that's what in the world that we live in so the private military companies on the continent like pilgrims africa that you're running because they're all based on people like you south african or are the original army veterans is there a new generation coming to replace you guys are there young people interested in this kind of work. i maybe just make another distinction quickly pogroms africa is part of the british pogroms group and we have commercial security for well over a dish that we pay our taxes and we do nothing that can be considered to be but at the type of work. but yes to answer the second part of your question in private military companies they certainly ease a new generation back in the day it was an exclusive small group most commonly

known as the so everybody knew each other and to a degree people understood that a profession of people and because they're small at the action in iraq and afghanistan that led to a whole generation of new young short soldiers that left the services and went into the private security work and many of them found their way into private military companies the market was flooded not necessarily with quality people many of the guys were good but many of the guys were not so good and some of them got kicked out of the military and also migrated towards a career in the private security industry so. to be honest modern security persons have to catch up with that in the world and properly bait. candidates and employees and go through the same process as any corporate entity would be studies to determine if the candidate sitting in front of them for the job interview is in

fact qualified is in fact experienced and he's infected aren't going for the job. so. i can see that you know. you're so experienced in the military world and in private military what how do you recruit people do you look for physical attributes first and foremost or mental strength or moral fiber how can you tell without combat tasking that a person is solid reliable hireable. almost again two sides to this this answer the first is the commercial security business that is of international scale and it s. clients that a list of companies all over the world. you know there's a new international standard for security companies it's called the p a c one standard united nations that have been in this client facing it is all about compliance and so on of that process we have to be compliant with the way we recruit a person know whether we recruit the security guard or whether we recruit the

director so we go through the same recruitment process as any corporate entity would go through when it comes to p.m.c. or other let me let me delve down a little bit into the sort of slightly murkier world but at the contracts that is handed down by dodgy governments or by dodgy entities and it's word of mouth normally they would approach somebody that they trust or they would be they would be i have a solution it's to them by a entity that is what it is that offshoring that consists of former military personnel and those guys with the word of mouth they would use social media or phone calls emails and they would gather the guards pretty quickly. in general they were that it could people they know but if it's a large contract there's a lot of guys needed and obviously sometimes the quality slips a little bit. so you mentioned that your company mostly does defense aware and he said that you make a distinction between companies that only do protection jobs and those that also go

on this sensitive jing in this working on a company that can mount offensive operations and more fun to me chopper hopping after i don't know boko haram going to bush than escorting an oil executive from the airport to the rake and back. there's all sorts of differences between a commercial security company and a p.m.c. . a commercial security company delivers a wide range of services that borders on the just eco services outsourcing services technical services for example the installation of security measures around a office c.c.d. camera fencing lights it provides man guarding this is a god the front of office guy that sits at a security post or somebody that patrols a large yard with a sense now on the other hand the p.m.c. will often engage in combat and that for me is the difference p.m.c. is don't necessarily engage in combat p.m.c. use private military companies can get involved in the back end. but at the.

proper but at least proper armies across the world in a support role but pm sees are sometimes also involved in combat training and then in some cases they get involved in combat and that for me is the main distinction if you ask me whether i miss the days that i left the army and i in part of a private company i think i can combat yes it's a brotherhood and you do miss. and it is special and the bonds that you form back then stays with you forever but as you can see i'm getting older and greyer now so that is not my number one priority in life anymore do you ever encounter customers that try to misrepresent your mission in any way you're interviewing south right there to work. oh no. it's the store it's the stuff that story's a fictional made off to be honest when a p.m.c. engages with a customer. the contractual requirements and normally laid bare long before any

work is done before any money changes hands during a mission or during a deployment or during the duration of a contract yes that acquirements may change but being tricked into a change it's never have after that in any operation or any kind of conflict i was involved in. normally they would be a bit of give and take normally they would be add on expectations from the customer sometimes objectives are met by the p.m.c. not necessarily a visible clear or the specific objectives that the client wants and so that would be a process of negotiation it is a business off the dole. time something when p.m.c. is have to defeat an enemy on the ground they act like classic army stay start with an air onslaught then finish them on the ground one of the techniques used to voice similarly in collateral yes when the pm seen gauges and combat it's there's no difference between that and any other armed force engaging in combat the fact that

they for some reason work for a civilian company a private company does that they are on a contract break makes no difference once the bullets start flying the same tactics apply and. in each and every case that i have been involved in that i know of the mcs took extraordinary measures to avoid collateral damage specifically the targeting or even the accidental harm to civilians in most cases they were they were greatly successful because they said that as an object of a a standing army. that attacks or bombs or target will consider collateral damage but in the political way it's not their prime concern whereas for the p.m.c. it is very much so often in the planning for most of your combat operations for a few see where i was involved. the effect and the impact on civilians was front and foremost in the planners minds and often times when there was a chance of civilians getting hurt the plan was not executed to us modify in order

to avoid that. like any private business is concerned is those things that is bad for business having civilians hurt or killed or having property damage that shouldn't be damage is definitely bad for business so therefore of p.m.c. sometimes considers things in a different way than a standing military would. we'll take a short break right now we'll be back discussing outsourcing the war to private companies was code was claassen graham's africa and veteran gun for hire stay with us. if bernie made up our army and said if you don't buy into my ponzi scheme on going

to shoot my donahue even though the body scan was well known to be a ponzi schemer yes you see it investigated bernie madoff police twice before they found the boss of them and they it was a well known ponzi scheme invested by well known people the magic of bernie had an army now apply that to the u.s. dollar the u.s. dollar is a ponzi scheme why do people want the u.s. dollar because if they don't the u.s. military said and they're obliterated whether it's iraq or libya or some other place like this around and so that's what's going to set a new york times rightly so the u.s. dollar is worthless it's backed by a lot. of the world's a crime scene used to do crack when i was a little kid my dad he was like oh. so you know like what i needed when i was a baby boy i had a big troubles. there's always been single mothers in african-american communities

ever since slavery. i think it's more of a teenagers having kids in you can expect a fourteen or fifteen year old first daughter to order for and there be a far there any check out. the long. place in. my car end up breaking down i was unable to get to work on time so they let me go in with my paycheck that i bring home i have merely enough to pay my car and sarin. gas in my car. china has arrived in europe in a very big way and not everyone in the west welcomes this italy support of china's belgian road initiative is a game changer the washington consensus that has dominated the world for the past

seven decades is being challenged to turn to the east continues. u.s. veterans who come back from war often until the same stories. were going after the people who were killing civilians they were not interested in the wellbeing of their own soldiers either there already is several generations of them so i just got this memo from the circular defenses office says we're going to attack and destroy the government and seven countries in five years americans pay for the wars with them money those with us if we were willing to go into harm's way and willing to risk being killed for a war surely we can risk some discomfort or uneasiness for.

our back when kobus classes. had a program's africa security company and former member of executives outcomes talking about his life as a down for hire on the role of private military companies on the modern battlefield . so you want convention bans the use of mercenaries while civilian governments using it as a dirty word and yet we see that time and time again mercenaries come to their rescue us saying lay on it for instance against boko haram exciter why are private military contractors more effective than un peacekeepers or a national army is for that matter only kind of comes down to

a you know both this makes but the three strategy and tactics mix with business principles so that's where the p.m.c. has an advantage over an army like you call it that. they want to respond for example to a client request in the quickest most efficient way possible political considerations not so for much almost in the penny business principles are he getting paid by the hour that you would make sure that you are as efficient as you can be in the hour so that's first and foremost where. pm sees can be more efficient but at these i have to qualify that there's no p.m.c. on this planet that can fight the major war that's not the point and that's never a way of p.m.'s he's comes in at this point in time and into the foreseeable future pm sees provides a limit that it's going to fission solution as part of a larger a broader solution for example you mentioned backcourt on the other ninety eight and i have been on g eight and i happen to understand what happened here the p.m.c.

that came here it was most contracted through when the war the p.m.c. that came here was contracted a unit and to create that from scratch and then to go into combat and achieve limited objectives so as to show the nigerian but at the someone you should have to get them on the front foot. to get some momentum going and to achieve certain limited objectives i believe they were contracted initially only to come in and the rescue the chibok girls you remember the girls that were kidnapped from their school and that mission been changed eventually became slightly broader in scope but then when they have a the idea that they would stay here for a year and fight the war that is meant to be followed by the national army they were for a specific mission and that's why some people make the mistake and report the romney budget in soldiers a bright and physically capable flight and quite willing to fly so might affect some of the best in the world i fought with them i can i can say that i have a day leadership has failed and possibly the ship has the chin the right that the

logistical capabilities are not cheated but at the end they training has been lacking has been lacking going so they had a p.m.c. can come in the cup to select very quickly at least all the training standards and doctrine at the same time help them with their logistical supply and procurement so that i things of all the things that will method and make a difference teach them how to use that help them to deploy that and then step back and step out of this out of the picture so the pm sees it all is a limit that i'll be a very effective one. so in nigeria continues that struggle with alcohol around which is now seemingly split into two factions your former colleagues from meo have put the haraam on the wrong three years ago working for the nigerian government but saying that the group is still here where their efforts not out how would you assess first of all if the full mario as you say executive alcoa's this band of the long prime ago the company that was contracted to come and help the nigerian

government. was a different company some of the personnel or things were the same but believe me very few on the whole this was not the from company at the from a bunch of people and i know because i met some of them and i spoke to them and obviously we interact on social media via email and so forth. that they do a good job they did a brilliant job they just passed the key well considering the constraints of time and money they were given just a part of the budget that they were promised and they were given a very short period of time as a matter of fact over the simba to mobilize and you know mobilization like that would be a logistical if and logistics means arms and ammunition nobody sells arms and ammunition over these private company everybody goes on holiday so they pulled it off and let it go myself and let it go because unfortunately due to financial constraints they confine themselves to base and then they left they withdrew out of nigeria it's a great pity that they were not given the opportunity to finish what they were

contracted for i believe they would have saved hundreds of thousands of lines and nigeria's northeast would be in the politically far more stable condition than it is right now like a lot of other militants in africa boko haram is operating in an area where it's the to cross the border and fleeing to chalk nigeria cameron is facing too much pressure can nigeria even deal with it on its own. no i don't think so nigeria needs a concentrated effort. it has to be collaborative effort between each year come out and chat at least and not syria and all of these other countries needs help. most of them but these hawks back to conventional days they're all the best of the structures the way they teach these soldiers and train them is to come in a conventional manner unfortunately they are facing a counter insurgency or an insurgency in the me and they need to adopt a counterinsurgency strategy and tactics and equipment and formations they need

help with that they need to be assistance in order to restructure the material the manpower on the ground fantastic they are brave they're stronger physically capable they nationalistic they are out of their countries they will find that they need to be helped how to find and they need to be equipped critic the untrained cricketing . iraqis that back in sierra leone executive outcomes was so successful because it was able to get help from local militias who knew the areas and the people in the side against alcohol rom do you see much trust between the military operating in the country's north east and the locals. well that's an important decision for governments that are faced with an enemy like all caught on has to make and that is whether through in this civilian help officially and some countries like sierra leone it was done successfully did local hunting societies was organized enough that i'm going to the group and a part of that was placed on the executive outcomes control and utilized video actively the same can happen here but first of all there's to be

a political decision by the political leadership of the country are we going to arm civilians and put them in harm's way in order to supply and support the military if they do make that decision and however wide or limited that decision may be in those people can be invaluable as a matter of fact right now the fight is scared to buckle at home and it's offspring by local militias that are simply armed with shotguns and the occasional like a forty seven these people are fighting to protect they have lands these villages and they have people so they are effective in what they are doing in a counterinsurgency you know i think the scope for that to be organized well controlled well trained well mobilized and it will certainly add value to the hieron pledged allegiance to i says a long time ago but do you see and i says problems in nigeria start this as a real possibility at this stage or is it now more like a jihadi pipe dream. look i'm sure there's

a technical difference between isis but for all our swell all cars on this island whatnot. if you take a step back and you look at the problem it isn't a militant islamist problem they each have a unique character uniquely theirs and maybe slight francis and tactics and approach to the issue but it's a common enemy and it starts with all the way across the region now and it should be seen as that so i have no idea what that isis with the study says so he hadn't called themselves that although they were there right on the back of the already established islamist but at the movements you told me there's an enemy and is destabilizing the state killing a lot of innocent people need to be stopped welcome hieron reportedly uses child soldiers and so did the revolutionary revolutionary united front the group you faced off with in sierra leone did you ever have to engage a unit that includes children i mean how tough is it for a soldier to face them on

a battlefield is a person and his size the child first and soldier second or vice versa. ok in africa young people as being combatants for ever in sierra leone we found that immediately. it's really hard for the soldier in a context situation in a battle situation to distinguish the age of the opponent all the sees is a shadow with a gun firing at him and he's completely within his rights and of these internationally has the right to defend himself or to attack that object and kill that person turns out to be a twelve year old with like a forty seven it's heartbreaking but unfortunately unavoidable it has happened and it will continue to happen because these are not standing armies these are not people that play by the rules yes they recruit children so they are not responsible for my age of atrocities and they form a significant part of the combat force of all caught on when i saw double tragedy there's nothing to be done to avoid that it's

a long term solution kids belong in school not on their arms. you know conventional armies at this point having going high tech would drone satellites other hardware in place is this high tech copper out also available to play mcs are they using the latest on the hatters or do that just make do with what you've got. no what astonishes me is where military technology has gone over the last day cradle to grave and all the fact they're american so complain that in the continental united states and direct of their own to kill an enemy out there on the wall to push a button is amazing p.m.c. is different we do not have access to that level of so first sophisticated allman the best the p.m.c. can hope for is a working g.p.s. . perhaps through the radio or satellite company creations and perhaps a little bit better all moments than what the enemy knows but oftentimes it's an even match like a forty seven's heavy machine guns and weapons perhaps the odd helicopter or fixed

wing aircraft or two that makes the difference. cause thank you very much for this interview different to have hired your inside or talking to classes had programs africa and veteran up executive outcomes discussing his life with a soldier for hire on the future of privatized war that's it for this edition of sophie and co i will see you next time. i've come to. especially brutal. because. so

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