some just come for an easy. welcome to worsen or is played a major role in pushing to terrorist spec is outsourcing the name of the game when it comes to modern conflicts will ask was class and dimension director at programs africa and veteran soldier for hire. mercenaries have been the mainstay of african walls for decades have a good decisive impact in sierra leone and nigeria and other theaters of conflict and while the media portrays them as dangerous cash hungry brutes local government still has soldiers of fortune to get them out of tight spots. companies more

efficient than regular national on these on this continent private military contract is a viable solution to this regional conflict and could their actions help to bring peace to war torn hotspots. called this class and managing director at programs africa and executive outcomes veteran welcome to the show it's great to have you with us because you run your own security company now after having spent years in the special forces and then reached fame as a member of mercenary unit except about comes there have been t.v. programs about you a character based on you it was played by leonardo di caprio and blood diamond are you using all his fame and attention to bring more clients to promote the business is a good thing. right so we all get older obviously and we followed the from the creative process let me just rectify something from the stuff not so much special forces

units as airborne units close but not the same that's where i spent my military career and yes off of it i joined executive outcomes and i had a couple of years with them and after that i formed my own company and then carried on from there and now for the last eleven twelve years it's been programs africa show that i'm the director quite happy to do normal commercial and domestic type of security work. all right but what about the media question do you like the media attention that help you get climate clients is a good is a good thing for business. no i don't like media shy and so many people in my in my business however i'm one of the older guys around and i feel that we should have a voice and if it's a sensible so the questions we should answer them and we should speak out for our industry and also for that of the private military business because we feel that

has the right to exist as a place of modern business and politics and somebody should answer those questions and be on the media so here i am reluctant to leave but quite willingly yes so why is it though because other mercenaries from your generation that i talk to and i've spoken to quite a few they said that the media always portrays them in a negative light do you feel that things as well do you feel that the public opinion is against you because you're considered a mercenary. well well thought out well balanced media will follow the story regardless unfortunately in the early days of executive outcomes. there was a a more sinister or a more politically driven agenda death planted stories this is well documented given ballers of the search and the subsequent book on that. so to a degree executive outcomes was the victim of a smear campaign which is different from good reporting on the other side of the

coin we have enjoyed fair and honest reporting for example the b.b.c. reported on their presence in sierra leone that can ninety five ninety six ninety seven really favorable in correct manner because at the end of that conflict all parties that was in the conflict was tried or was investigated by the special court . and executive elton's was given a clean bill of health and this was well reported by the b.b.c. and it was picked up by the news media so yes there's good and bad we have to live with it that's that's all modern world that we live in so the private military companies on the continent like pilgrim's africa that you're running because they're all based on people like you south african or are the original army veterans is there a new generation coming to replace you guys are there young people interested in this kind of work. i maybe just make another distinction quickly programs africa

well or a dish that we pay our taxes and we do nothing that can be considered to be but at the time of work. but yes to answer the second part of your question in private military companies they certainly ease a new generation back in the day it was an exclusive small group most commonly known as the so everybody knew each other and to a degree people understood that a profession of people and because death is one of the action in iraq and afghanistan that led to eighty a whole generation of new young short soldiers that left the services and went into the private security work and many of them found their way into private military companies the market was flooded not necessarily with quality people many of the guys were good but many of the guys were not so good and some of them were got kicked out of the military and also migrated towards a career in the private security industry so. to be honest modern security persons

have to catch up with that in the world and properly bait. candidates and employees and go through the same process as any corporate entity would be studies to determine if the candidate sitting in front of them for the job interview is in fact qualified is in fact experienced and has infected our guard for the job. so. i can see that you know. your story experience in the military world and in private military what how do you recruit people do you look for physical attributes first and foremost or mental strength or moral fiber how can you tell without combat tasking that a person is solid reliable hireable. on this again two sides to this this on so the first is a commercial security business that is of international scale and it s. clients that a list of companies all over the world. you know there's a new international standard for security companies it's called the p a c one

standard united nations that are when it is client facing you it is all about compliance and so on of that process we have to be compliant with the way we recruit a person no whether we recruit a security guard or whether we recruit the director so we go through the same recruitment process as any corporate entity would go through when it comes to a p.m.c. or other let me let me delve down a little bit into the sort of slightly murkier world but at the contracts that was handed down by dodgy governments all by dodgy entities and it's word of mouth normally they would approach somebody that they trust or they would be they would be i have a solution it's to them by a entity that is that is that offshore and it consists of former military personnel and those guys with the word of mouth they would use social media or phone calls emails and they would gather the guards pretty quickly. in general they were they could people they know but if it's a large contract there's

a lot of guys needed and obviously sometimes the quality slips a little bit. so you mentioned that your company mostly does defense where can you said that you make a distinction between companies that only do protection jobs and those that also go on this sensitive jing in this working on a company that can mount offensive operations and more fun to be chopper hopping after i don't know boko haram an ambush than escorting an oil executive from the airport to their rake and back. there's all sorts of differences between a commercial security company and a p.m.c. . a commercial security company delivers a wide range of services that borders on the just eco services outsourcing services technical services for example the installation of security measures around a office of c.c.t.v. cameras fencing the lights it provides man guarding this is a god the front of office guy that sits at a security post or somebody that patrols a large yard with

a sense now on the other hand the p.m.c. will often engage in combat and that for me is the difference p.m.c. is don't necessarily engage in combat p.m.c. use private military companies can get involved in the back end. but at the. proper but at least proper armies across the world in a support role but pm sees are sometimes also involved in combat training and then in some cases they get involved in combat and that for me is the main distinction if you ask me whether i miss the days that i left the army and i in part of a private company i think i can combat yes it's a brotherhood and you do miss. and it is special and the bonds that you form back then stays with you forever but as you can see i'm getting older and greyer now so that is not my number one priority in life anymore do you ever encounter customers that try to misrepresent your mission in any way you're interviewing south director

to work. oh no. it's to store stuff that stories of fictional made off to be honest when the pm seeing bare long before any work is done before any money changes their hands during a mission or during a deployment or during the duration of a contract yes that acquirements might change but being tricked into a change it's never have after that in any operation or any kind of conflict i was involved in. normally they would be a bit of give and take normally they would be add on expectations from the customer sometimes objectives are met by the p.m.c. not necessarily a visible clear or the specific objectives that the client wanted so that would be a process of negotiation it is a business off the dole. time something when pm sees have to defeat and i and a me on the ground they act like classic army stay start with an air onslaught then finish them on the ground one of the techniques pam says used to voice similarly in

collateral yes when a p.m.c. engages in combat it's there's no difference between that and any other armed force in gauging the com company does what they are on a contract but it makes no difference once the bullets start flying the same tactics apply and. in each and every case that i have been involved in that i know of the mc used to explore all the measures to avoid civilians in most cases they were they were greatly successful because they said that as an object of a a standing army. that attacks or bombs or target will consider collateral damage but in the political way it's not their prime concern whereas for a p.m.c. it is very much so often in the planning fall of one of the or combat operations for a few see where i was involved. the effect and the impact on civilians was front and foremost in the planners minds and often times when there was a chance of civilians getting hurt the plan was not executed as mortify in order to

avoid that. like any private business in concert is those things that is best for business having civilians hurt or killed or having property damage that shouldn't be damage is definitely bad for business so the airport of p.m.c. sometimes considers things in a different way than a standing military would. take a short break right now we'll be back discussing outsourcing of war to private companies with coalesce classes out of programs africa and veteran gun for hire stay with.

after the previous stage of my career was over everyone wondered what i was going to do sort of go from fields where everything is familiar on the other i want of a new challenge member fresh perspective from time used to surprising us all or not if you think. i'm going to talk about football not the or else you think i was going to do. by the way ways of that slide here. or there was a crime scene used to do crack when i was a locate my dad he was like oh must be so you know like what i needed when i was a baby boy i had a bad childhood. there's always playin single mothers in african-american communities ever since slavery. i think it's more of these teenagers having kids in

you can expect a fourteen or fifteen year old first daughter to order for and then be a father and he's a check out. and i was unable to get to work on time so they let me go in with my paycheck that i bring home i have nearly enough to pay my car insurance. like gas in my car. my ponzi scheme on going to shoot my donahue even though the. well known to be a. twice before they found the boss of them and they was a well known. by well known people. now.

the u.s. dollar is upon. us dollars because of the u.s. military and their obliterated brothers iraqi or libya or some other place like this around and so that's what we're going to set the new york times rightly said the u.s. dollar is worthless. and we're back with classes had of programs africa security company and former member of executives out congo in modern battlefield so u.n. convention bans to use of mercenaries wow civilian governments using it as a dirty word and yet we see that time and time again where serious come to their

rescue i say in sierra leone there for instance against boko haram etc why are private military contractors more effective than un peacekeepers or national armies for that matter we're going to come down. you know both of makes but not reach the refugee and. mix with business principles so that's where the p.m.c. has an advantage over an army like record. for example to a client request in the quickest most efficient way possible political considerations not so much foremost in their planning business principles are you getting paid by the hour then you would make sure that you're a sufficient as you can be and. so that's first and foremost we. can be more efficient but of. i have to qualify that is no p.m.c. on this planet that can fight a major war that's not the point and that's never a way of p.m.'s he's comes in at this point in time and into the foreseeable future

pm sees provides a limited yet spoken efficient solution as part of a larger than broader solution for example you mention backcourt on the other ninety eight and i happen to be a nigerian effort to understand what happened here the p.m.c. that came here was not contracted through when the war the p.m.c. that came here was contract that train a unit and to create that from scratch and then to go into combat and achieve limited objectives so as to show the nigerian but at the somebody should have to get them on the front foot to get some momentum going and to achieve certain limited objectives i believe they were contracted initially only to come in and the rescue the chibok girls you remember the girls that were kidnapped from their school and that mission been changed eventually became slightly broader in scope but they were never the idea that they would stay here for years and fight the war it was meant to be fought by the national army they were for a specific mission and that's why some people make the mistake and report that

wrongly nigerian soldiers a brave and physically capable fight and quite willing to fight so that affected some of the best in the world i fought with them i can i can say that however their leadership has failed and possibly the ship as the chin the right that the logistical capability of the nigerian but at the end they training has been lacking has been lacking going so they had a p.m.c. can come in the cup to select very quickly at least all the training standards and doctrine at the same time help them with their logistical supply and procurement so that i things of all the things that will method and make a difference teach them how to use that help them to deploy that and then step back and step out of this out of the picture so the pm sees it all as a limit that i'll be at a very effective one. so nigeria continues its struggle with boko haram which is now seemingly split into two factions your former colleagues from meo have put the haraam on the wrong three years ago working for the nigerian government but saying

that the group is still here whereas their efforts not on the whole money oh as you say executive alcoa's this band of the long time ago the company that was contracted to come and help the nigerian government. was a different company some of the posts and other things were the same but believe me very few on the whole this was at the from company at the from a bunch of people and i know because i met some of them and i spoke to them and obviously we interact on social media via e-mail and so forth. that they do a good job they did a brilliant job they just passed a key well considering the constraints of time and money they were given just a part of the budget that they were promised and they were given a very short period of time as a matter of fact that would be similar to mobilize and you know mobilization like that would be a logistical if and logistics means arms and ammunition nobody sells arms and ammunition over the assembly a private company everybody goes on holiday so they pulled it off and let it go myself and let it go because unfortunately due to financial constraints they

confine themselves to base and then they left they withdrew out of my g. it's a great pity that they were not given the opportunity to finish what they were contracted for i believe they would have saved hundreds of thousands of lines and nigeria's northeast would be in the politically far more stable condition than it is right now and like a lot of other militants in africa boko haram is operating in an area where it's the to cross the border and fleeing to chalk nigeria cameron is facing too much pressure can nigeria even deal with it on its own. no i don't think so nigeria needs a concentrated effort. it has to be collaborative effort between each year commitment chat at least and that year and all of these other countries needs help . most of them but at the hawk their teach these soldiers and train them is a calm in a conventional manner unfortunately they are facing a counter insurgency or an insurgency in the me and they need to adopt a counterinsurgency strategy and tactics and equipment and formations they need

help with that they need to be assistance in order to restructure the material the manpower on the ground fantastic brave they're stronger physically capable they nationalistic they are out of their countries they will fight but they need to be helped how to find and they need to be don't expect any of outcomes so successful because it was able to get help from local militias who knew the areas and the people in the side against alcohol rom do you see much trust between the military operating in the country's north east and the locals. well that's an important decision for governments that are faced with an enemy life all caught on has to make and that is where the in this civilian help officially in some countries like sierra leone it was done successfully dillo call hunting societies was organized enough that i'm going to the group and a part of that was placed on the executive outcomes controlled and utilized video activity the same can happen here but first of all there's to be

a political decision by the political leadership of the country are we going to arm civilians and put them in harm's way in order to supply and support the military if they do make that decision and however wide or limited that the solution may be in those people can be invaluable as a matter of fact right now the fight is kind of to boycott and it's offspring by local militias that are simply armed with shotguns and the occasional like a forty seven these people are fighting to protect they have lands these villages and the people so they are effective in what they are doing in a counterinsurgency you know i think the scope for that to be organized well controlled well trained well mobilized and it will certainly add value. go around pledged allegiance to i says a long time ago but do you see and i says problems in nigeria start this as a real possibility at this stage or is it now more like a jihadi pipe dream. look i'm sure there's a technical difference between isis but for all our swell all quiet on this island

what's known. if you take a step back and you look at the problem it isn't a militant islamist problem they each have a unique character uniquely theirs and maybe slight differences and tactics and approach to the issue but it's a common enemy and it starts with all the way across the region now and it should be seen as that so i have no idea where that isis with the study says so he hadn't called himself that although they were right on the back of the already established islamist but at the movement's you or me there's an enemy and is destabilizing the state killing a lot of innocent people need to be stopped welcome hieron reportedly uses child soldiers and so did the revolutionary revolutionary united front the group you faced off with in sierra leone did you ever have to engage a unit that includes children i mean how tough is it for a soldier to face them on a battlefield is a person and his size the child first soldier second or vice versa.

in africa young people as being combatants for evah in sierra leone we found immediately. it's really hard for the soldier in a context of choice in a battle situation to distinguish the age of the opponent all the sees is a shadow with a gun firing at him and he's completely within his rights and it is internationally has the right to defend himself or to attack that object and kill that person turns out to be a twelve year old with like a forty seven it's heartbreaking but unfortunately unavoidable it has happened and it will continue to happen because these are not standing armies these are not people that play by the rules yes they recruit children so they are not responsible for my age of atrocities and they form a significant part of the combat force of all caught on when i show double tragedy there's nothing to be done to avoid that it's a long term solution kids belong in school not on their arms you know conventional

armies at this point having going high tech would drone satellites other hardware in place is this high tech copper out also available to play mcs are they using the latest on the hatters or do that just make do with what you've got. you know what astonishes me. military technology has gone over the last. the fact they're. in the continental united states and directed their own to kill an enemy out where on the wall to push the buttons amazing. differently to not have access to that level of so first sophisticated all of the best the p.m.c. could hope for is a working g.p.s. . perhaps a good radio or satellite company and perhaps a little bit better all moments then what the enemy knows what often times it's an even match forty seven's heavy machine guns and weapons perhaps the odd helicopter

or fixed wing aircraft or two that makes the difference. thank you very much for this interview different to have heard your inside or talking to. better an up executive outcomes discussing his life as a soldier for hire on the future of privatized war that's it for this edition of i will see you next time. china has arrived in a very big way everyone in the west welcomes the support of china. is a game changer the washington consensus that has dominated the world for the past

seven decades is being challenged to turn to the east and. us veterans who come back from war. stories. for the people. they were not interested in the. well being up there on soldiers. they're already several generations of them so i just got this memo from the start that says we're going to attack and destroy the government and seven countries in five years americans pay for the wars with them money on those with knives if we were willing to go into harm's way and willing to risk being killed for a war surely we can risk some discomfort for an easy for. i think more to gain is an outstanding person because he took on the most powerful agency in this county or you'll be to stay if

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