yes you can call yourself a wealth creator lloyd blankfein the c.e.o. of goldman sachs one year after the crisis said that goldman sachs workers were the most productive in the world we as economists use to really debate and contest that word there's different theories of value and actually first we debated value and then that turned into a theory of price today we have basically an approach to the economy which is all about prices supply and demand curves that determines price and that determines what we value so the logic actually got reverse think of it value chains shareholder value shared value and goldman sachs calling goldman sachs workers the most valuable but what does that actually mean and so when we don't actually have a way to distinguish value creation from value extraction it becomes much easier just to throw the word around in fact the reason i wrote the book believe it or not is that in the two thousand and fifteen election when the labor party lost the analysis by labor members themselves by leaders in the labor party the next day was we lost because we didn't embrace the wealth creators the value creators and by that they meant business and i thought to myself how can it be that we've gotten to

the point where even the labor party which is about work labor doesn't you know doesn't actually have a narrative a way to talk about values collectively created and they confuse the word wealth creation with business because in the book you talk about lloyd blankfein fully of goldman sachs saying that your productiveness comes from organizations like goldman sachs it's like we're always told this is he london's a little wall street you know it's creates value yeah but what do you know what's interesting is that up until the one nine hundred seventy s. the financial sector wasn't even included in g.d.p. it was actually seen as just a transfer of the existing value from one place to another kind of like you wouldn't include social security payments it's just a transfer and before that in fact the way we would talk about finance was also in terms of rent so the classical economist talked about in terms of unearned income it literally just moving stuff around which of course isn't true of all the finance but anyway there is this. and of skepticism what is finance actually doing and so

in the one nine hundred seventy s. which is when the deregulation and some other changes the size of the financial sector started to become larger where you had was that the people who were doing the systems of the national accounts s.n.a. inside the united nations started to say i got this thing that's growing larger and larger in the economy isn't even being accounted for so instead of pausing and saying oh dear why is that what is the thing this blog actually doing they just came up with a justification for including it so investment banking was included under the term risk taking that it was a service for risk taking remember that when you include things into the national accounts you have to kind of say what it is doing so in the u.s. as national income and product accounting so all of this is suddenly stuffed into the g.d.p. figures out without any kind of value judgement is it actually producing something or is it just moving things or when you want your virtual to each other or up with a newspaper and it's talking about basically g.d.p.

growth is all that we can hope for for human operators using this sort of massive well let me give you a little test. what happens if someone is cleaning your house a man let's not make this under a civic and then you marry that man. what happens to g.d.p. before it falls and if you pollute. we all in the river so all the strain the only shows orderings only the only things that we pay for get included to explain the pollution yeah so when we pollute g.d.p. nothing happens to it only once we pay someone to clean up the pollution does it change and in this case it would rise or the example of the cleaner was if someone is doing something in your house and then they keep doing it even if you're no longer paying them perhaps because you married them and they still do that the g.d.p. was is going down whereas other services in the house for example care you know really important care services which we know are very valuable in the kind of

a more colloquial sense simply because they're not being paid for don't going to g.d.p. this by the way something that feminists economists have been arguing for a very long time environmental economists have been arguing the point about pollution for a very long time what i kind of brought to the table was this whole issue about also the financial sector which is you know is that actually creating value how would we kind of make that valuation given that actually how we measure value is simply through price it is for the really big as a feminist to go in as divorce is good as well yeah why not exactly but you know this is the big revolution and in the history we cannot make thought is that the logic used to be from value to price nowadays we have a theory of price which then determines what we value so take teachers what's really interesting with public school teachers public schools the teachers that work inside them because the service gets provided for free to citizens we don't actually include the value of a well structured you know education system all we include are the the costs so the

salaries of the teachers go into g.d.p. not the value of the product that they're producing if you divide it by the demand side as you can cut in different ways but on the demand side so all the consumption spending all the government spending the investment spending and that exports this country mainly grows to consumption led growth and that consumption is fueled by private debt and the ratio. private disposable income is actually back at record levels to what it was just before the financial or that is you talk about apple the most valuable companies in the world so again by you meeting government. or government investment in these sorts of figures we arrive at the idea of apple being a great. company with a lot of other nerds garage tinkerer is etc you say it's the government to do well but i believe in the case of the apple story in this kind of builds on my previous book called entrepreneurial state is that the state in again how we talk about an economy is just seen as fixing a problem economists say fixing market failures and if you think of the more

colloquial use of you know you're talking about the state it's there to enable to facilitate to deal risk to set some sort of basic framework conditions and then get the hell out of the way but actually what the state has done in places like silicon valley and the few places in the world that have actually grown through innovation because there's different ways to grow the state actually acted as an investor an investor a first resort but when we just think of the state of spender administrator or regulator we don't sort of capture this investment side and the true story behind apple is that everything that makes that phone smart to not stupid was funded by the public sector so internet touchscreen display g.p.s. siri the voice activated system all those were funded not only by public money but by particular organizations that darpa in the department of defense that also has had to be structured in a particular way in order to you know use the smart innovation driven investments but it's because we don't think of the state as creating value but just facilitating it and fixing market failures we also don't ask ourselves for

countries that want to emulate for example the silicon valley model what does this mean for how we structure our public organizations to take risks to experiment to explore to be more mission oriented other guys are available. while i was away the operative by the way is in trouble with the u.s. government but where did it become all. and when does it become all pervasive that innovation goes from the private sector not from governed directly the opposite of what you're saying then the name adam smith being used so often as part of this idea that government is role that's just factually wrong by the way so even if use of as completely mysterious because adam smith what he meant by the word free market was free from rent free from rent and rent seeking and to really free the economy of rent you also need ambitious policies that do sell but i would say so i start the book with quoting plato not adam smith and i say that plato said storytellers rule the world and the stories about where wealth creation comes from

so only in companies like apple or in the financial sector a better capitalism cetera is i think a story that also then justifies this very skewed way in which we're distributing the rewards which are actually fruit of a much more collective system and so what i would argue is that the kind of battle against the state that began with margaret thatcher and ronald reagan had to be accompanied by a whole narrative a discourse a story using plato's words that kind of portrayed the state as being you know a bit boring and inertial but what most people don't realize and so it's not enough just to tell that kind of basic story is that the tech itself the really high risk technology was also funded by the state must use the new hero of space but also solar electric vehicles he received five billion dollars from the u.s. government forestry companies space x. tests and solar city these are investments in particular companies and it's really i think quite foolish to think that the taxpayer only socializes the risks and then

we privatized the rewards as we did by the way with the bailouts of the banking system it was on the road that everybody has to bail out and there are still really goes on but of course i mean just in the past few days the word marxist is come up repeatedly in parliament actually as a word of contempt and even by b.b.c. journalism yet the word mox occurs again and again in this book. what is it looks you think the torah for. the most you have never read marx at best they've read the communist manifesto and how how does most help the marxist fascinating and if you mean the irony is if you read marx you end up really appreciating capitalism he describes it as a system driven by innovation constantly changing he has these wonderful metaphors for that change even in the comments manifesto but i'm really talking about capital is kind of magnum opus capital volume one two and three which i read as carefully as they did adam smith's wealth wealth of nations david ricardo's principles of political economy the three were the classical economists compared to today's neo

classical economist david ricardo already an eight hundred twenty one was asking the question that everyone thinks are so smart when they talk about it today the robots are taking our jobs he was already saying this mechanisation which is fueling growth under the industrial revolution has huge problematic features it's displacing labor it's causing unemployment and a pressure for wages to go down but then what you have for two hundred years up until the one nine hundred eighty s. basically is that the profits that were being generated from this new machinery and industrial revolution were being reinvested in other parts of the economy so even though some jobs were being displaced there were then being found elsewhere literally creative destruction not just in technology but in jobs what then happened at the same time of the facts or reagan years you had this obsession with maximizing shareholder value in terms of how companies were governed and that was you know became i think a fundamental problem sickness in modern day capitalism which we're really seeing still today which is the lack of reinvestment of profits back into the economy the

profits are being hoarded on record levels but also being used simply to boost share prices and stock options and executive pay through practices like share buybacks so three trillion dollars have been spent on share buybacks in the last ten years by the fortune five hundred companies and when you talk to companies that engage with this practice and that would include you know pfizer says. exxon apple they say well there's no opportunities for investment and then you look around and you see massive opportunities we have you know climate change which the i.p.c.c. report tells us we have twelve years left twelve we have all sorts of challenges around health systems that really could be rebuilt and remember that if you do this ambitiously this also creates opportunities for profits themselves in modern economic thought that instead of looking at these objective conditions of production division of labor mechanization productivity they look at preferences so even wages are seen as the outcome of the preferences that workers have for leisure versus work and it's all focused on the individual the individual company

maximizing profits the individual consumer maximizing utility the worker maximizing their choice of leisure versus work and that kind of takes the attention away from the structural conditions of the economy which are very problematic president as a coder thank you for the break a new film about revolutionary cuban ballet dancer carlos acosta off as not to go to mainstream portrayals of the socialist nation we speak to the film's director and its writer daniel blake scribe paul levitz. the shadow of. the red. revolution from nazi all the people going to hell and about to go underground. you know world's big partners. law and conspiracy it's time to wake up to dig deeper to hit the stories that mainstream media refuses to tell more than

ever we need to be smarter we need to stop slamming the door on the shouting past each other it's time for critical thinking it's time to fight for the middle for the truth the time is now for watching closely watching the hawks. but the number. they matter to us is over one trillion dollars in debt more than ten white collar crime happens to. eighty five percent of global wealth he longs to be rich if we pursue the world market thirty percent some with one hundred thirty three for chicken per second and if we rose to twenty thousand dollars. china is building two point one billion dollars a i industrial park but don't let the numbers overall. the only number you need to remember one is the

board to miss the one and only boom boom. welcome back united states economic war will undoubtedly continue on countries in latin america this week with further sanctions on venezuela and cuba being eyed by the trumpet ministration is it any wonder when measures like these are parroted by major nation mainstream media for the new film that follows the life of revolutionary cuban ballet dancer carlos acosta uses dance to dispel the mainstream media myths around cuba as well as highlight the effects of decades of u.s. economic war in the socialist nation we met up with the film's writer paul laverty who also wrote identical blake with ken loach and the film's director issue in central london i started by asking paul what made him choose the project i'm a very good friend cold under cold it is a scottish producer should read carlos his autobiography no way home carlos acosta

the ballad on bali nine sorry yes sunday it's a terrific read he's known as i get it done so he's a great writer and it was hilarious the because just really sparky very very funny he grew up in a very purity area and ivana he's dad was an absolute brute but he's also loved sort of strange sort of we and me going to walk the age of nine i'm saying. he was a grandson to a slave so he's really tough on carlos and didn't want to cause the going to trouble this is regularly about school so the exact opposite of billy elliot and there's carlos carlos they want to dance and he wanted to play football the opposite you know exactly so and that was the starting off point that was and then they were met carlos yeah and then we're meant to abandon to see him in there with his company the company that place that big rolling in the film and then i mean there were so many reasons to do the film but if you do not do in the film because he's such an amazing character is is a. boy who starts from

a. neighborhood in atlanta and sapp playing the first black romeo in that area so it's an incredible journey and then him and then we could tell these amazing story so we went for it because it's a warts and all picture of cuba as well which is in the news obviously dog trump saying we're going to destroy the country and it's usually marriage allows a call with as he or kind of economy that will be brought in by jury corporate conscious of how you're going to depict the kuber of color so acosta yeah well we just wanted to be truthful because them and we listen to the propaganda from trump an hour from the british government we forget that there's an economic embargo against the stay nation is going to have for sixty years which is totally against international law and is condemned every single year in the general assembly the united nations and they try to stereotype it but we actually go to cuba it's actually a very determined self-sufficient brilliant nation you know as it certainly felt the full with the united states is you know illegal and bargo but there's

a great spot where there's great vitality brilliant talent fantastic dancers some of the best ballet dancers best education systems in the world they don't talk about our very much and them so commerce grow up i'm not i'm just wanted to believe it to be truthful to that and we look at the economic period you know as the special piece was very very tough people. trying to escape in rough so we don't try to. make a rosy who just trying to be truthful to cause his life and commerce his life obviously you know is wrapped around what's happened in cuba his last forty five years of his life just the smoke the butler seem. to feel that was was out to put there and edit it into it because it's so startlingly political in what is otherwise a story of aspiration you know something it was hard to defend because. it had quite a few critical critical people on it but the thing is as paul says you cannot understand cuba without the united states so because we are are not only

telling cutlasses life cover story we are talking about cuba the united states has been broken in the island for the last fifty or the years. the united states have interfere in the politics of so many other countries as smoothly which was these in this general area pacifist after his life. in intervene in so many other countries he became a pacifist and he wrote this book which was call what he said rocket and then to enter the i mean that was an amazing idea to say ok let's dance something the united states in the race and all over the world all the still valid digs and we just go on that's them but there was an amazing character really well known up until very recently he was the most awarded military figure and that entire history unbelievable a marine general smedley butler but people don't know his name and it's because after when he retired he just said i've become

a thug i have been i was washed an al capone i'll cop on only at three districts we invaded three continents and saw this wonderful remarkable man his voice has been silenced and i'm so glad of that still an issue are very conscious of the fact that your work obviously the very film terbium you are always talking about huge geopolitical ideas and then focus from drumming so telling me is that. we're a lot about the script first i don't know how you. already will you us to work for us under god i will ask him and then he asked me and then we both came in as a team what i think that was what was fascinating our callouses life story is it's about carlos it's about that cuban dance here in this is about how how he managed to break through and be a super successful one of the best in his generation but also he's cuban and also his life goes parallel to the last forty years and that's something which where they're in the story i mean carlos his family which is very present in the film

lived through the last forty years of their life in the island and that was fascinating because you're telling the story of an amazing dance about the story of this country in the last but it doesn't force a bust there i mean carlos is twenty twenty when he when he's hired by there by the english national ballet and then when he comes back to cuba he faces put on the sense that in the economy the soviet union has collapsed eight cuba has disappeared and they face these special period which was which was the worst time ever in the island so him so he faced that and he censored that he wanted back in cuba and everybody was leaving so we didn't force that into the story that that was actually what actually happened and it's the same thing with today carlos mature man who has decided to be part of the press and of his island by creating his company there and that's part of the film as well so he's known yury of no he was always connected to cuba he was holding back to cuba he was he never forgot his roots so all these

things were what make this story short tract of so relevant detail and so full of of well it's a great story and it wasn't forced to actually talk about all these things in cuba because these were happened and it was very nice was actually like some of your question actually was bring in the film back to heaven or you know there was a five thousand four hundred people in the car my son. to see the opening of the film of the festival and there was thousands of say again that issue again and what was remarkable was just their face in the africa because he has not forgotten his receipt to come out while superstar in the world of dance based never forgotten his roots and he wants to go back to cuba and he wants to contribute and build things there again and i think that's why he's held in such affection just on there's a scene where you like coincided with the collapse of the soviet union there are still the embargo beneath states there was great poverty in the country and people were trying to flee you know flee and if in you know escape and rafts and he just

fell with the boat was part of the reality and something that deeply touched him as a cuban i would say to see in the pain of these people always was a very important point to train bring in what about this blurring of fiction and reality when ken loach was a large show he talked about your script for your break that script was mentioned allows a commons with politicians you're saying this is fiction it's not real what is this blurring of fiction in reality in the hugely father was actually born he was a grandson of a slave. that whole experience really marked him he went to work the age of nine he was brutalized themself and beaten up by a very rough fight it unleashed on father be given a very very rough background and there colors that have all these stories about slavery you know and cuba yeah magine them it was part of his reality too and i think as we have making sense of his father so it didn't go to the actual plantation they decided to dance that's because he was absolutely convinced that

those are the experiences that made his father such a tough contradictory character so although it's not literal i would argue it's very very truthful play going to make films together again because obviously i understand you both met on carlos well the setting of a spanish civil war movie which obviously was that's not always going to take what . we've done three so far hopefully we'll do more years it went in the. film directed by the wonderful ken loach called landon freedom so he got me into a lot of trouble because he introduced me to theater so you ever made the three films together may when the if she for patients continues she may do another one with us i don't know when read on a. i do i look. i never think of evidence it's never take every day i have very high demand saw i have to join a queue as you as you just said yeah i was land of freedom not close as a regular rug. i know the films already won awards or you've won or words they're

going to take it to one guy don't run as wally or and both of them are all in brazil and all the countries in the numbers fear that may not be so rosy about the victories of jager of our fidel castro i would love to bring it there and perhaps of the had a society where everybody who is over seventy has good talent you know have a chance to go to school and fulfill the talent i would look i would love to see that but when you see mr abbas now just know and in and minute. biggest countries in brazil celebrating and an army we just convicted of so much talk show on my gosh and i think it's probably doing good to see some beauty some dance some of my generation one day on the famous and the subtlety of the human spirit thing i would be brilliant to and i would quiz for them as well as well on nick i grew up with dial up to get. thank you both if. you cut the you down

good to see the look and see. the last moment. you leave the call us acosta story is in u.k. cinemas this friday that's it for the show will be played out by saying it's alright to not see with this song revolution see on wednesday to talk last civilizations and colonialist talking all the g. with bestselling author graham hancock is not he with revolution. been thinking about what you said. i've been thinking about your plan to. get down by the lake side. so see you my parents and.

all those things you've said. now you want to take the stand. it's all a lot about the. back end. they saw and saw so their faces go. they say your go in. but i don't see not far in your eyes. when i was a hobo in. standing before me was the shadow of.

dream the red balloon show. i dreamed of a revolution. u.s. veterans who come back from war often tell the same stories. were going after the people who were killing civilians they were not interested in the wellbeing of their own soldiers either there already several generations of them so i just got

this memo from the circuit events officers were got back and destroy their governments and seven countries in five years americans pay for the walls with them money those with their lives if we were willing to go into harm's way and willing to risk being killed for a war then surely we can risk some discomfort or uneasiness for us. to use what i. if you do. you wish the first one to be the purest we go forward for the voters will. let you listen to this who do want to. see if it was national guard can you pull off. a couple of. the pretty cute talk a little bit. it's

a local issue for reforms. little boy who will support the border these critics one of the least most of you did in your belief because they'd be. pushing into my view smear. both of you. opposed someone into believing it because we've thought of it still if you believe that e.g. . i .

don't think. the us ramps up the pressure on iran designating sarongs elites military force the revolutionary guards as a terrorist organization. it's only as combative interior minister forms an alliance of right wing nationalist parties saying here to shake up the e.u. off the next month's election.