this is not working and we actually do something about. how in a while. to many in the american policy community. is a total disgrace and he proposes to bestow the american values on yet another foreign country. in the eyes of his critics to discuss that i'm now joined by former american ambassador it's a pattern. ambassador it's great to talk to thank you very much for it's a real pleasure now you made quite a splash resigning from your position last year is citing the difference in values

between the you and president trump and valleys especially american values a very broad concept the russians it is sometimes difficult to grasp was there anything specific that made you quit there were a number of factors nobody decides to leave a thirty year professional diplomatic career based on just one of them in my case i was very concerned during the election about the rhetoric that i heard the president using with regard to building a wall on our shoulder and border i had served in mexico twice the country well i knew how well ingrained we were in terms of our economy in terms of the flow of goods and people legitimate goods and people across the border as well as illegitimate drugs and human smuggling but i also knew how important obeid lee important mexico is to the united states and by. so i was very concerned about the

wall i was with them in the wall doesn't mean cutting diplomatic trade ties with mexico does well the president has threatened to do many many things but threatening and doing are two different things what was my catalytic moment was had nothing to do with the wall it had to do with the riot occurred in charlottesville there were neo nazis who marched and sadly one woman was killed by somebody who ran a rover with a car and the president did not condemn it. and that is what triggered me to say if he doesn't condemn the neo nazis then i don't believe that i can represent him over she i have a sense that you also have issues with his. personality because in one interview you compared him to the loss or rafter who sees every known person as a threat ready to kill anyone who doesn't show him deference and so with claim that

the united states has little tolerance for challengers i mean the history of the united states in latin america provides many of examples don't you think that trump reflects some pertinent. characteristics of the united states as a country the style of it's in the neighborhood around the world i would suggest to you that. doesn't except challengers very well either that's not an. american a very very different styles i think i disagree i think they have a very similar style. not very bombastic tromp this bombastic but it's that idea of not brooking dissent of not accepting when there is criticism of shutting down media outlets in russia or in the united states calling it fake news and shouting everybody. so i think they're very similar but they have different styles but ok but doesn't own style reflects something about the way the

america historically has been the. neighborhood supporting states does not have like no nation has an unblemished record in latin america but if you take a look the united states has a self correcting ability that very few empires and i'm going to use that word empire united states doesn't hold terrain outside the united states the way previous did but the united states undeniably has deep economic relations with latin america we have the largest number of free trade agreements in latin america we have supported democracy in latin america over the last seventy years and if you take a look if you take a look at the last coup that the united states did actively support in correctly it was a bad decision i'm not here to defend it was one nine hundred seventy three while it was in latin america but later on president obama was somebody who was much better received by the world. he was talking about changing the way that america

the united states of america and gauges for the world i think that was a major part of. the last office re grabbing a post. a decision on libya which turned out the country into a complete chaos i guess my question to you is is that really about values because there is a i think your question. is an american value that speaks to pushing us towards war and be absolutely. answer is absolutely not if you look on balance which is the only way you can assess the nation remember we all live in democracies in the western hemisphere we are gauged on four and five year political cycle or so go over the whole history of the united states in the world i unabashedly say we are a force for good well i'm not ready to go and i'm actually not claiming that the united states is

a force for bad but if you look at the very very very long history of cia supported coups in latin america which sometimes deposed democratically elected government supported military regimes and you know can you name them well many of them argentina in no not a coup not united states in the in the they were number one. fifty four nine hundred seventy three and the only reason i know this is because that's where i've spent i'm not i'm sure your knowledge of latin america is my. mind but i spent a lot of time in arab countries in syria in libya a little bit in iraq some time in afghanistan and i can tell you that there is that police is no limits and so that's where we go to you don't have to be an expert in the region the united states has deployed its military power and its diplomatic power and its economic power around the world for many many years in support of what we consider to be a liberal world and into the ground and so we're dealing with that you know.

perceptions are i don't need to argue about that what i'm my point is that the americans regretted what they'd done on many many occasions iraq would be one of them libya is another one president obama had the courage to recognize that this was the biggest. on vietnam there is in retrospect but i think it's fair to say that every country looks back on its history with what we call twenty twenty hindsight and sees where things could have been done better or decisions were made for the wrong things not every there are very few countries that. military invasion zones other countries as liberally as the united states has my question is different why do you think that americans find it so hard to resist that urge to bestow their values you know that's a marvelous question generals always fight the last war in the united states it tends not to be the generals who decide to go to war we have a complete subordination of the uniformed services to the civilian elected

democratic leadership one of the reasons i think that happens i would disagree with you that the united states is the most overtly interventionist is there anything to disagree with who is the most. let's take a look at where hang on but i mean you're talking about michigan saying it's not i'm talking about about scale i'm talking about times where you deploy national power that's not necessarily just an invasion that can be poisoning somebody in london that can be exporting revolution to cuba and putting missiles and. that's not going to i mean we honestly just say that one is right and one is wrong and. that's not how that's not just that they're going to use that power to advance their interests while i think there is a legitimate question of whether you can use foreign invasions to. enhance your

interest. well crimea is like. declare independence and incorporated into russia that is not there not today but was there an invasion there not at all there was a warlord initiated by georgia who was recognized by the european union i was covering that for some reason they're on their show but you do not deny that in fear of influence russia routinely deploy you know military well i would absolutely deny saying it's right absolutely and so tell me why there are one hundred right now one hundred russian military men in venezuela you're living me perfectly to my next question i want to leave the un recognized government of the seller has a military called peroration agreement with the un recognized of the government of russia and international law allows certain governments to maintain so if they. win

withdraw its recognition because fifty four countries have recognized one who i do know as the legitimate president leader of the united nations leave tomorrow in the united nations withdraw i think the russians will take a note of that but since you mentioned me as ella because many of my questions were sort of leading to the main theme of station mr trump. sort of the come to should assume for the regime change in a minute and you said that once this could actually be a case where the administration has gotten something right what is that something that something is that they are not militarily invading elliott abrams who is the counselor for venezuela has testified twice in open court that invasion is not the preferred way to go forward hang on let me answer. the second in south com southern command which is the military command that works in latin america with our military

cooperation agreements with sovereign countries recognized by the un they do not have a war planning cell number three you have the. secretary of state who has said publicly on several occasions this cute line and they say all options are on the table how long have we been engaged in this several months have they done it now you know. really you know the history of latin america much better than i do and you know the history of us and you don't necessarily need to send troops like it happened in panama if you do you can't you can send a small contingent of you know well trained guys and that would still work in deposing like ninety nine russian soldiers well to go after one could that be could that ninety nine group be a group of guys who are very well trained who could take my word for this state

affiliated television then i can only tell you my personal opinion but if i should does it i think that would be wrong and that would be represents interference in the main reason because if the united states invades i think that would be disastrous and it would be wrong apart from invasion the united states historically employed for example economic warfare with very little regard for humanitarian suffering converges operations ca as i said was involved around the continent extensively come on just in cuba they have been involved in cuba you mean where we have been we've had our diplomats attacked with potentially huge history on what you think. you're doing with donald trump you're saying huge i'm saying there's two and i'm asking you because of the well documented. of cia involvement in trying to assassinate fidel castro i can actually don't have enough time to name

and i don't think you will have to go with that. you said who's ok the united states for many years trying to join the leader of a foreign country even attempted. what i'm saying is you would have delays here huge and then to see. time give me three or four examples over one hundred year period because that's what you're doing if i were to say that peter the great ok your great russians are was a marvelous man because he dragged russia into the sphere of europe and you say wait a minute he didn't really succeed we're still the not old we're still russian he didn't give us western values and i say no no no but he did because he really tries a very simplified understanding of peter the great i come from st peter's work very good you build my own city but you did it as an enormous cost and a lot of people died while trying to build that city but you're making my point i'm not even a simple point that the united states has invaded repeatedly i didn't say you gave

it as a libertarian or i said interfere curve earthly economically diplomatically into the affairs of many many election american countries and that's a statement of fact you can no debate that i mean anyone who has the minimal off knowledge of history will agree with me and i'm sure you agree with me as well you're just being a contrarian here but. or at least i'm a i'm a former diplomat i would never do that but you're also a special kind of diplo ambassador can we take a very very short break now but we will be back i would this very spirited conversation in just a few moments. u.s. veterans who come back from war often tell the same stories. we're going after the people who were killing civilians they were not interested in the wellbeing of

their own soldiers. they're already several generations of them so i just got this memo. that says we're going to destroy the government and seven countries in five years. americans pay for the wars with them money others with. if we were willing to go into harm's way and willing to risk being killed for a war surely we can risk some discomfort. for peace. welcome back to one part of the former american ambassador it's

a kind of mind john feeling ambassador just before the break i was trying to ask you the question about the car what kind of tools of regime change you would support in the case of venezuela economic deprivation economic warfare. call verdant cia action you said that the arnold in support of the military invasion but i think that would still be contingent on what's happening in the country or us just strictly against regardless of what happens sure i remain very much opposed to military intervention militarily we clearly have the military militarily. we could kill madeira we could arrest madeira we could not going to flourish ok i am opposed to it because i fundamentally do not believe it is in u.s. interests there are several issues at play in venezuela one is the terrible terrible humanitarian state into which venezuela has fallen under the regime of first to go childish and now nicolas maduro that alone in my opinion is not

a justification for an american invasion what is there is at this point there is no justification but that he still supports. president constitutionally article two thirty three of the venezuelan constitution says that when a president is either incapacitated or arrives in office by illegitimate means now the world the un the oas international observers. they have you know they made it very clear that the elections in may two thousand and eighteen were fraudulent the funny thing and i'll tell you this the funny thing is that might have actually won that election on his own but he read the election he kept the ballots out he didn't allow me to come in so but. i really should have the constitution show you now as well who is the legitimate president and he even in the. disputes that but even if that's the

case that happened to him a number of countries that the united states made no noise about i mean the elections in egypt for example have also been questionable the last elections but the united states played along so rather the united states doesn't play along to united. with any of trampling on democratic values unless. that is compelling long long as it is in keeping with its own interests and again the history of latin america provides ample examples some of which we discussed but let me ask you a policy a broader policy question because power transitions are always very precarious especially in a country is asked polarized as venezuela facing as enormous economic differences difficulties as. do you have confidence that the trump administration has what it takes to guide us through these power transitions that the two previous american

administrations bush administration and the obama administration failed so miserably because the united states tended to bring democracy to iraq and to bring democracy to libya that failed. but ministration half what it takes to guide venezuela through the democratic transition without major bloodshed though without major shocks to its economy by itself no the united states is not the protector of venezuela the united states is a very powerful country that has a responsibility in its fear of influence in the western hemisphere to work with the lima group to work with the oas the organization of american states to work with fellow democracies to provide a humanitarian support that meant as well as desperately need because nicolas maduro and his cronies have stolen all of the money but there are a lot of no no no no no he. mentioned an important point a lot of money is frozen abroad if you're so concerned about humanitarian suffering

some of those funds could be it will eventually do it so you're be happy to know that's what we're attempting to do that's a big part of our policy you might remember a couple of really funny smart russian jockeys got elliott abrams on the phone they asked him the same question now realize they're baiting him they're trying to get him to say something that's going to be embarrassing about american policy they're trying to get him to say that yeah really look we're doing all this but what we really want to do is invade and the elite is fully believing that he is talking to senior swiss bankers says look we're really not going to invade what we want to do is freeze the money in your banks in switzerland so that we can provide it to the legitimate government and get humanitarian aid until there is that that's the policy and this is why for as much as i dislike donald trump i have to be honest enough to say that on venezuela so far his administration is getting it

right that the administration officials over the last couple of here over the last couple of weeks made a statement something with regard to the russian presence on the ground and not only military presence but also canonic presence i mean it's essentially. dahlan to a call for russia to pack up and leave if you are so concerned about people in israel and why wouldn't it be a better idea to get chime there russia turkey iran and all those countries on board to put pressure on moderates how pyramid can all make lead to help him with advise on how running how to run that he's economy and do something you know a collective international action that would actually benefit people venezuela rather than benefiting the american interest there because the administration is pretty clear that what they're after there is not democracy is not some sort of values but it's economic interest first of all why wouldn't they i wish they would i wrote a column in univision a couple of weeks ago where i said if i were them i said my next phone call would

be to mr putin and mr paine who are the two largest creditors to the mature regime and i would talk to them and i would say look. we all have our interests the biggest interest in venezuelan oil is sniffed and igor session that's a fact so you have been running. i mean is it not i suppose it is isn't it he went and russia gave soft loans that the venezuelans now campaign actually you're not getting paid what i said in my column was that the world should address the humanitarian crisis and that the next call that i would make if i were mr pompei it would be to mr levitt oath and i would have the russians the chinese the biggest creditors the united states the lima group all of these countries i would have them work to deliver humanitarian aid to effect a peaceful transition

a transition and this is not happening just that i don't know i don't understand it's not happening and i think that's a shame but you know why it's not happening it's not happening because nobody of those three major powers but remember they're not the only ones who count but nobody has yet seen that there's safety in an outcome why because maduro will not give up power if moscow were to offer because mother would. and a little country home and to be able to take a certain amount of money and live comfortably. do you think he would leave i think that would be a very corrupt offer i think it should be up to the people of minnesota to decide who they want to be allowed by and i agree there should be an elections but. i also think that you should not have elections every time when the united states doesn't like the results oh no but this wasn't the united states this was the national assembly that nicolas maduro out any country where. there are major questions about

competence and mental fitness of your own president he was accused just a short while ago of being essentially installed by a foreign nation and yet that wasn't good enough for you mr weiner i think mr interest happily let's say i'm very happy about the results of the motor report i'm very happy that we had a deep investigation i'm sure he still hasn't released these reports i think there are many russians who have well i have to say if we're talking about obviously i mean doesn't wasn't good enough reason for interference you would be appalled at the thought of somebody interfering into the political or economic affairs of your own country would you absolutely and why should it be the case for the venezuelans why shouldn't they be allowed to sort it out for themselves so we had our wish and that is really in that you should ask the venezuelans because right now according to victor and that analysis which is the only polling company left in venezuela seventy five percent of the venezuelan people want a u.s. invasion i live in miami there are literally hundreds of venezuelans who are living

in miami who have fled their country i am telling you and you can disagree with me but they all want the u.s. to invade venezuela and are dying venezuelans are hungry venezuelans have no penicillin venezuelans have no schools the economy is completely broken down if you were in that situation you would want to. know i mean i don't know where you saw many american the wars and every time i heard this same argument the problem with that is that once the united states interferes it's not getting better it's usually gets worse that's a. panama nine hundred eighty nine the united states when in country where i was the ambassador nine hundred eighty nine the united states when they took out they arrested manuel and they brought him there not including relationships with the united states. he was a cia about speaking about value he was a cia operative who went wrong who went bad then he began to traffic drugs so we arrested him we brought him to miami we tried him twenty five years later panama is

about to celebrate its perfectly peaceful perfectly democratic transition in may that's a success story you can't deny that if you take a look at what the united states did after the central american wars we supported democracy in all of those countries and what did we do wrong and i'm the first to admit we focused too much on the counter-narcotics aspect of it and not enough on building institute i'm sure our viewers in comments to this show will let you know what the united states. and how many of them watch i'm pretty sure it's. going to be an authentic response we only have a minute left and i have i guess a space for only one question william burns president obama's deputy secretary of state he recently warned about policy risks in venezuela saying that trump could make the same mistake a bamma did in syria going in getting involved without having

a coherent plan doesn't give you pause for thought absolutely you won't be surprised that bill burns was my former boss and i share his opinion as i've said several times in this interview i fundamentally disagree with the u.s. invasion not because it wouldn't be but it wasn't proper i mean formal invasion it was all sorts of ways of trying to bully me when i should diplomatically. red barrel bombs were not diplomatic in syria the barrel bombs came across as part of an irregular warfare look we can point back and forth all you want i am saying very clearly i do not support a u.s. invasion in venezuela because it is contrary to u.s. interests i mean even putting the invasion aside do you think the united states has a key here at this point has a coherent plan of interacting regime changing in venezuela by canonic means by

diplomatic means doesn't look like. it has its structural supported the united states is supported by virtually all there are only three countries and that of course. again you know but the iranian regime not to us was supported by everybody in the region but it still failed miserably in terms of conducting its policy you like that miserably but then when you look united states has international support to support but the military in venezuela the plan is one it's labeled little pieces it's this is it is not a plan written in washington that's good i believe the plan should be written by the legitimate representatives of the venezuelan people which is the national assembly not the bogus constitutional assembly that the president maduro set up when he didn't like the results of the election and in may and you do believe that this plan whoever writes it should be put out and it's even his own people as heroes make a decision on that's we can agree we can agree but we have to leave it here

ambassador it's been great pleasure the real pleasure thank you so very much appreciate it and preserve years to keep this conversation going in our social media pages our. same place same time here in the worlds apart. when trying to american foreign policy at its core is it really about furthering national interest is there an ideological foundation that is the driver we're told it's all about democracy or is it really all about power and the purposeful denial

of agency of others on the international stage. after a ten day of debate leaders of the e.u. is a member states agree to give britain's treason may until the end of october to secure a deal on. crisis talks at the u.n. security council see russia and of the u.s. lock horns over venezuela with america's the vice president giving a blunt assessment to the crowd boy. with all due respect mr ambassador you shouldn't be here. you should return to venezuela. and tell nicolas maduro that his time is up. it's time for him to go. into fearing in the affairs.