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follow and welcome the cross talk for all things considered i'm peter lavelle has finally happened was arrested within the ecuadorian embassy in london is widely expected he will be extradited to the united states to stand trial the expected charges are espionage this is truly a dark day for journalists and journalists. across talking julian assange i'm joined by my guest joe laurie in washington he's the editor in chief of concerns also in washington we have brain mcgovern is a former cia analyst and co-founder of veteran intelligence professionals for sanity and in new york we cross the sara flounders she is co-director of international action center as well as author and an anti-war activists all right crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate it joe let me go to you first because you're very familiar with julian assange and joining us wrote the forward to your book. what are your feelings right

now because you know from my perspective in in the business of journalism this is one of the darkest days of journalism in my lifetime and i'm going to remember this state for the rest of my life no matter what happens that's how passionate i feel about this this is a crushing move against a profession that it's already been crushed so much over the last few years go ahead joe i think it's a dark day not just for journalism but for everyone else for the entire world really for all the populations of the of all countries that depend on a vibrant media a critical media that can bring them information about what their governments are really up to that will challenge them and that's of course where we clearly stated they provided the information that the governments and did not want the public to know particular about crimes and corruption and this is why they got him arrested today all the other stuff about bell skipping in and previously about the sexual allegations it's read all of that was the lead up to get him to go to this courtroom in alexandria virginia so he could stand trial for exposing the secrets

of governments it was indeed a very stark and nightmarish image of seeing you know julianne taken out of the front door of the embassy with a ruptly camera there this is what we call here in the u.s. a perp walk they wanted us to see him being pulled out and the fact is that the population has been dispersed misinformed disinformed distracted about the significance of this issue now it's the press that has destroyed itself in many ways in this story because they have turned on this man that they once profited from one who served their partisan interests when he exposed crimes of the bush administration when he exposed corruption with hillary clinton they turned on him and a dime they're still pushing this rubbish story that he helped trying to get into the white house that he's somehow a russian stooge and a kremlin agent all this nonsense even though collusion story has collapsed so it's the press that has failed the public here and they have already the corporate media i'm talking about they have already destroyed themselves in many ways. they had to

move to really find this man and be cheering today his arrest is quite disturbing you know sara new york. i have to wonder if the guardian the new york times the washington post c.n.n. amisom d.c. are they going to be held account of they going to face espionage charges because they disseminated so much of what we see leaks. released to the public and they profited from it also joe is right here because we keep leaks at the end of the day it's a publisher but unlike other publishers it was never proven to be peddling fake news go ahead sarah. well they they reported on it and exposed some of those crimes because it was already out to the whole world and really what was exposed are the dark crimes that the u.s. has committed in its wars two hundred thousand cables video footage images and that should be the response of anyone who is challenging right now this

this brutal really this arrest of a songe and that is let's go back and bring a revive bring forward again what it was that wiki leaks exposed what was in those cables let's show again those videos where civilians were helicopter gunships let's show again the torture let's show again guantanamo if they're going to pull juliana songe out of the. embassy absolutely an outrageous crime then let's show again all of their crimes i think that can be the only response the only legitimate response is to show that there is no freedom of press now major corporate media reported that at the time and then they sort of let it go to sleep well this is revived it again and i think we have a responsibility to talk about what wiki leaks contributed to this and what chelsea manning all of those documents and she has really suffered for this and is now in

prison again there should really be a campaign for her immediate release this is after a pardon it shows how the indictive they are and how they want to use intimidation and i think we have to refuse to be intimidated and it is a real role for the media to challenge this again and bring forward once again remind people what joy in a songes contribution is and he made a big contribution to truth to freedom of the media to for. in the press ok sarah says we need a campaign but that campaign isn't going to come from the media because they're all cowards ok they've turned their back on this man because we keep leaks came into existence because the media failed the legacy media failed in its mission to inform the people of the of of hard truths and showing how government works and doesn't work here so what can we expect to happen next once she is on american soil.

well bottom line is it's only us never has been any other we are the press we are the media the fourth estate is dead it used to speak of the fourth estate is be moribund now instead what it i mean by that. most people know that annenberg the problem and in british basement in the late eighteenth century coined the phrase he said you know we have three states here in parliament two and two in commons one and lords and but there's one estate that's far more important there are all the others it's the fourth estate it's you gentlemen up there in the press gallery because it's you who keep us honest with you government run amok now fast forward you ask for it from the late eighty's no are no more review are to the magna carta or the bill of rights in the constitution there is no press

freedom and so it's a very to me the mission or that this doesn't go down lately now i just that when we gave julian assange and wiki leaks the sam adams award for charity it was actually over two thousand and ten and after he released the f.b.i. and the iraq or law it's what did they show they show what crimes by the united states military director orszag in the white house what was the reaction very little reaction to that that was pretty much crashed but when people started sick old people be hurt by these disclosures the secretary of defense last said that tiger said reports that u.s. troops are or anyone else has been harmed by this are quote significantly well or off heriot end quote so there's no there's no counter argument to revealing who.

you know even no counter argument such a good point you know joe you know what we have now is that we saw we saw this show of force of dragging julia songe out of the ecuadorian embassy but he told me something that they don't want me to think it shows me that these the national security state is actually quite weak and timid in its ability to communicate its position of of why its lee illegitimately has power because it shows it's that the powers that be show themselves to be weaker and weaker because they're run able to be able to engage in discussion and debate and maybe argument but they didn't i the other side they are only right and people must follow because look at they did to julian assange we can do it to you that's the mission they're sending but that's somebody that's that's power that it at its weakest point because it only it relies on coercion not argument go ahead joe. absolutely that's authoritarianism right

there what we saw coming only sora julian saw it dragged out of that embassy and the public being shut out because the corporate media again does not inform and takes the wrong side they take the side of the state not the side of the people and the governed they're supposed to serve not the governors in fact they're weak as well on their argument in this case because the indictment was finally sealed just about an hour or two after assad was pulled out of the embassy this indictment that the government had denied was in existence for ten years sorry for about nine years from two thousand and ten and what they are charging him with is very important and i think it's a weak case which is why chelsea manning is in jail because they are not going to charge him under section three of the espionage act which is mere possession and dissemination of classified information that's on the books they could have done that but that would be a threat to all of the press because every major media. publishes classified information so they are going for the conspiracy to commit espionage charge which

means they are claiming he. helped chelsea manning to break a password code to get the documents so that she could then transfer them to him as his source and that we can exclude publish and it rests on a conversation online that manning had with a person under a different handle that the government is organ was julian assange but it may be hard for them to prove that she was actually discussing these who have how to break this password to get in to get those documents now all investigative journalist work with their sources to cajole them to help them to help them get the information and go back all the time to your sources and do what you can to help them get that in this case the government's going to try the u.s. government try to build a case that a songe helped steal the documents not publishing the documents they didn't go down that route as they knew was what the obama administration called the new york times problem they couldn't have the times and the other papers be liable for the same kind of prosecution so that's what this case is going to rest on and she refused so

they don't have a strong case maybe it could say show us that they needed her back again to stay some more because they don't have enough and her a lawyers have a very interesting strategy they're saying if there's an indictment already and now we know that there is now this grand jury testimony could be used in trial if there's already an indictment then you cannot have a grand jury and it secret so they're arguing that she should have gone in there because they didn't want to use this testimony later on in trial and they can't do that they are only using and you know i guess which was already done i got to jump in here we're going to go to a short break and out of that short break we'll continue our discussion on julian assange and stay with our.

came. where did you work before you came here when you live well death row in many us states capital punishment is still practiced convicted prisoners can spend years waiting for execution but most of the time the victims' families they are very much in favor of the death penalty there are some people because of what they do have given up the right to live among us some even proven innocent years on death row but how many more exonerations is it going to take before we as a society realize that this is not working and we actually do something about. there are millions of people in america and around the world who are better educated than right dahlia but in order to succeed on wall street you need to complete lack of empathy this is driven in study after study after study or a dahlia has no consideration about the effect he's having of society and the

ruination of the lives that he's contributing to by being a leak on the system with his hedge fund that's the lack of empathy and pain there that that takes a certain kind of myopia and stupidity to work yourself into that state. welcome across talk we're all things are considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing julian assange. ok let's go back to sarah in possible that the impending trial of julian assange could be all could be all behind closed doors could be all secret and that we wouldn't really never know the the workings of such a trial and even to the point where the state would present national evidence that would be considered of national security importance where julian assigns and his or

her. boyer would never be able to see it because of its secretive value and that it would up the essential would be up to a judge to render a decision which we would never really know because it's national security you can't explain what evidence was being used to mean that sounds orwellian i mean truly so if it were to work out go ahead sir well all of this is are well again all of this is based on support keeping it all secret that is the real crime that joyous songe committed refusing to allow the crimes to be held secret anymore and everyone who in any way wants to defend julian a songe or admires his courage i think it's the obligation now to bring up again because it's gone quiet after seven years bring up again what it was that wiki leaks exposed to bring it forward again what chelsea manning showed in those videos

show those videos again show the torture again show the shooting of journalists and iraq again this is how we can counter it because if we accept the secrecy that's what they want to bring back complete secrecy control of the media and they're demanding that the corporate media who is already totally housebroken who's already defending in every way an empire that is declining that's in the k. that can no longer has credibility. in the corporate media is very much in the u.s. is absolutely part of that secrecy a little bit came forward because it was known around the world and there's lots there's hundreds of thousands of sites that are alternative media that can bring this forward and that's where we should look we should not look to media that already plays a role of conspiracy in an empire that is based on crime and that is bay. based on

secrecy so i think we have to refuse to accept the secrecy and bring forward what we already know and support a songe and certainly support chelsea manning who is in prison right now under terrible conditions after a pardon because she is standing up to a grand jury which is a very heroic position and again that's a secret proceeding that they're trying to put chelsea manning through so it's want more and more secrecy and we need to challenge the secrecy by exposing what they want to keep a lid on and the lid is coming off in a hundred ways around the world i think it's an obligation of everyone to do more to pry that lid off if we'll have an award decide but this case is melissa crimes but this case is really about intimidating one particular individual in a concept it is a reality into not only freedom of speech here but radio i mean there's the powers

that be are and aren't refused to be intimidated exactly but i think other people will be in box that's my very point ray i mean this is really the ultimate chilling effect let me go to ray is the ultimate chilling effect and it was done in broad daylight they didn't hide it they're actually quite proud of marching into a sovereign territory of another country which of i suppose accord or relinquish that shame on them. and breaking of international law and an asylum agreement there's no asylum is a silent agreement in the world that could ever be agreed to wonder law that limits one speech not in the european union and not in the united states for sure it to mediation ray that's what it's all about go ahead. well that's right here it's a brutish treatment of anyone who will stand up to the us that mushmouth you know the collateral murder video that's scary very two is very damning it shows the

position not only of journalists two for reuters but ten other people in play same it shows the brutalization of the pilots the u.s. pilots that have been taught to be so approach will know what most people don't know is that david finkel big washington post i was with that unit he looked at tape he washed it any wrote a book called the good soldiers of that specific unit that did this kind of brutality during the surge in iraq that says that pointed out in body few years the near the washington post they're fully cognizant and no one would have known about it were not for chelsea manning giving that tape to julian assange is not this makes the point why is the united states government so upset well it's because we keep leaks has this unique capability to get. leaks. what was the most

damaging leak it was the cole illustrate virtually the c.i. a will all three more bush bill billy from there to say laura and i both think. carol sure how breadcrumbs showing she and russian involvement in the d.n.c. even knows how they got there you know we think you know through this but we think it was generated in the cia in this very sophisticated seven hundred million code. will settle that operation let those so that's that's really damaging to the cia that's the book's struction research where they're actually. you know you know cho i mean i'm glad that ray brought up. meaning because you know i mean there's so much intelligence. ability out there i mean with veeps is

a very good example here it's never to i mean i don't even think the motor investigation even tapped into it i think one program on fox news took a mild interest but that was only to protect trump not to go after the truth ok so explain to our viewers i know your answer because i've seen you answer before but explain for my viewers here why does the mainstream media worship the intelligence community so much yeah there's a big reason and a little reason the big reason is that they are giving legitimacy to an establishment that is losing legitimacy as you pointed out earlier peter that they are weak and the corporate media props them up there are an essential ingredient and that the key people believing that these are legitimate the rulers and the second little reason his career as a reporter is want to be close to power they live vicariously through these powerful people they want to be part of the elite they don't understand their role is to be amongst the people to challenge to vet. to criticize the powerful so that

that's exactly we're going to sonnet it so they're trying to abolish that and have full control over information and here comes the sun publishing documents that they themselves hang themselves with because it's their own words it's their own video that was in that pilots are in the pile in the helicopter gunship so they got to stop that because they want the total control that they're losing and songe you know the corporate media reporters they could say he's not a journalist that's a key thing here he's something else well he's publishing documents but he's written three or four books he's writes articles he's a great jewish analyst this man just isn't just some kind of clerk accepting the documents and putting them out there he's understands what they mean and he tries to explain what they mean and they cannot tolerate this they need these lackey reporters to prop up their legitimacy that is weakened by the truth in this case by a songe this is the issue you know it's really interesting joe it's the first. for

power to criticize julian is by not calling him a journalist i mean how does that one of the great ironies of the time ok because they're just an auger purse for power and they're paid a lot of money to do it and they seem to do it without any moral compass whatsoever ok sarah i mean at the end of the day this is really about. narrowing freedom of speech because you cannot you know it's not that the problem isn't that the government commits crimes that the problem is for these people is that you report on the government's committing crimes that's that's the crime here not what they do it's how people like myself julian assange and other people in alternative media still believe that you have to. well the media today the big corporate media is absolutely losing its legitimacy in terms of its hold on people's minds on people's cars. consciousness and i think we should really take

confidence in our own ability because human consciousness is more powerful in terms of historic a big change than repression and even the technology the ability of technology to try to enforce repression it breaks through in unexpected ways and we have to really think how we help that information which we already have break through again and again and again we have to say this media has no legitimacy its whole role is to simply report on what is a criminal enterprise in the world today that's the role that the us empire that wall street plays it's trying to enforce a straitjacket of only wealth counts only power counts and people all over the world are challenging that and let's bring forward

a lot of that material just to show to expose how old they are the crimes that they're willing to commit don't let them put it back in the box don't let them keep it secret if there's going to be any kind of a trial and they want to keep it secret. in in the us if they want to attempt that method then we've got to in every way bring it forth and show what's not being showcased immediately i mean given the media has already been here for a little bit in a courtroom let me give let me give letting it all down let me give ray the last word thirty seconds ray i'm know you're a man of paper and i know you believe that the truth will prevail convince me that that's going to happen. well you know you have to be patient. stone said. you've got to be the prepared to lose you're going to lose and lose and lose and then one fine day someone who thinks about the truth the way you do wins you have to be patient and you have to. go in knowing that you're going to lose.

the important quote here reason before is that a scientist is solicit this information from from bradley your show see many. that he offered it to the new york times offered it to the white post i and they didn't want it so you know well we did what was she bradley manning going to do what he did was the next best thing and it was way to analyze and it was weekly it's all right it i'm sorry we brought out of time many thanks and i guess the new york and washington and thanks to our viewers there was watching us here at r.t.c. in x. time and remember hospitals. death

row in many us states capital punishment is still practiced convicted prisoners can spend years waiting for execution but most of the time the victims' families they are very much in favor the death penalty there are some people because of what they did have given up the right to live among us some even proven innocent off two years on death row and how many more exonerations is it going to take before we as a society realize that this is not working and we actually do something about. the use of it like you took notes. as you listen to this who do it to because. you think if it was national guard can

you pull off some. of. the put it. over to libya. it's a look it was beautiful beautiful. little full support scoop one of these clinics one of google's quizzical getting new tools because they've been. pushing into my thirty's smear. oh this is new. to post someone into believing it because with a good style if you avoid eighty. another

division opens up in the us this time of songs with some rights groups and even twenty twenty two presidential contender support others though the more the swift extradition and trial of the now arrested. back united states with his. song change the message that we're getting that the american people are getting by what's happened here today is you know be quiet toed the line otherwise there will be consequences. to saudi arabia having a bad in place that's according to german media reports. i'm ahead of a new four.