before we go to daddy st james in london to speak to julian's lawyer geoffrey robertson q.c. about the legal and human rights implications of the case i'm joined now from sydney in australia by legendary journalist and filmmaker john pilger john welcome to going underground you've said the arrest of julian assange by british authorities is a warning to all journalists explain it it's a warning from history it's a stark warning. anybody watching that shocking image of julianne being forced out of the embassy by half a dozen police and pushed into a van will know that if that can happen to somebody for using journalism to let us know the truth that can happen to anybody and if julian. is in but as he's in prison now but if he's on the way to an american prison well the principle is an altered on the way to an american prison could be

a host of other editors if they push their luck catherine viner of the guardian the editor of the new york times and i don't say that lightly the lead lawyer of the new york times asserted if julian and wiki leaks can be prosecuted so can the editors of those newspapers that carried their work this is an us this is the north of salt on journalism but you know it more than that it's an assault on citizenship because it can happen to anybody right across the world it is saying that international law doesn't apply julian was an a credited. beneficiary of the whole notion of of of asylum. the united nations working party on aba tree detention made that absolutely

clear and it was clear in couple months to which britain is a signatory now if that can be torn up if a regime as mired in in mercan corruption as the lenin merino regime in ecuador is today can call in the police in any country to arrest asylum seekers then think of all a historical examples we don't have to think about them so much i reported from the soviet union at the height of the cold war in the nineteen seventies and i've watched the k.g.b. and their associates do something similar to dissidents intimidate them march them out of their of their flats intimidate their families that was for political reasons what has happened to julian has happened on

a political whim the idea that it's about bail and infringement is ridiculous we both know that. it's about getting him across to a supermax in the united states it opens up a whole chapter of really diminishing the very principles that came out of the second world war upon which the universal declaration is based it shows how fragile a are do these lesser political beings in london in this government really understand that do they understand what they're setting in train i don't think so you say it's a warning to journalists journalists all around the world that alone here in britain's guy news channel four news because of c.n.n. in the united states seem much more keen to emphasize that this is nothing about. these big values your talking about it's more about messiness in that the embassy

now of course under the control of lenin merino in quito and and rape accusations of course they do because journalism in journalism in recent years has changed not radically it was always the so-called mainstream was always an extension of the state of the state ideology our freedom of debate has diminished that how the powerful are no longer a challenge that chav challenged on a trivial level but how that next they're not challenge to about the greatest to nana tarion disaster in the world today and that is in yemen for which the british government is largely responsible and way britain's are helping to direct this this atrocity helping with bomb

aiming for saudi aircraft and logistics and strategies and so on when is this when has this been made a burning issue of debate we've handed the whole world of of the abandonment of basic democracy which is based on dissent on challenging on holding power to account on revelation on the embarrassment of power. not trivial and barrus month the embarrassment of the odd celebrity but real embarrassment and wiki leaks provided that service that public service of journalism and it did it without fear or favor you know they publish something like eight hundred thousand documents on russia documents from the kremlin documents that we used in in in court cases in

in russia they published the same about china. but the united states and britain particularly the united states has arouse the ira because what we're in the the midst of at the moment is the world's great superpower struggling to maintain its dominance its information dominance its technological dominance its cultural dominance and wiki leaks has presented an extraordinary hurdle to this julian a sound then has become enemy number one but he should be and i don't say this lightly he should be hero number one. hero number one because if we lose the isaan jurors and there are many of them. a handful may be

there's certainly no one like him if we lose the wiki leaks then we lose a holes trotter of freedom we stop questioning you said he is a hero the foreign secretary jeremy hunt he has said he is no here or the prime minister tourism a started in the house of commons by saying the house should welcome his arrest alan duncan the foreign minister said it's total rubbish to raise the un ruling on arbitrary detention and the judge because quite apart from the media that we talk about quite often the judge district court judge here michael snow in westminster magistrates' court characterized as sons as having the behavior of a narcissist who can't get beyond his own selfish interest well that's just abuse that's not a judge that's an abuse or another judge would recognise that as an abuser the rest frankly you name joe jeremy hunt the man responsible for.

so much destruction of the national health service when he was secretary of state for health i mean frankly i don't think these are credible people i can get in the world of politics we're a very diminished state i'm trying to be polite about this but. i mean commenting on what hans says or the rest of them it used to be like commenting on what boris johnson says there's the problem there's another problem of course where is the opposition diane abbott made a spirited effort to describe julia in the sun she was the limos and these health and so on but what did the leader what did jeremy corbin say. he said that the government should oppose his extradition have been frankly it's best that germany corman doesn't say anything rather than tepid remarks like that

if there was an opposition leader who could stand up to the maze the hunts and the rest then perhaps we'd have some sense of real truth in debate to simply say the government should oppose the extradition is not enough it should be spelled out in in parliament what this this this extradition might mean if that threatens julian's life that he could end up spending the rest of his life in the kind of conditions that the un reporter on torture has already described he's already said that that's what he faces that's what we need to hear from the political opposition in britain ok well let's go to one of the most important wiki leaks revelations according to julian this sanjeev obviously covered so many decades of war by great powers he said the u.s.

special forces unconventional warfare manual about savages subversion intelligence overthrowing foreign governments specifically naming the i.m.f. and the world bank in o.e.c.d. as players in these strategies were unconventional warfare he said that that was one of the most important leaks was it to you yes i think it was one of the most important leagues because it it demonstrates the very nature of how the united states fights its colonial wars there are so many leaks that are related to. telling us about the true nature of war of course what really got julian into trouble and chelsea manning of course was the video of collateral murder and that expressed most graphically what i would describe as the whole homicidal nature of american colonial wars and especially in iraq the

three hundred sixty degree view of just kill them all and anybody watching that video. really has to read very little else of the wiki leaks revelations about the nature of american wars because there are it is there is a kind of consensual belief i'm trying to think of a polite term for brainwashing frankly that. we don't do these kind of things we are perpetually but nine on our side and the americans are part of that these things simply do not happen they only they only happen on their side they only are they done by totalitarian states. they're done by rogue states when in fact clearly the biggest rogue state of all is the united states. the one that ignores international law that has

threatened the prosecutor of the international criminal court has has told us that . she can have a visa to visit. the new york stop you that will from jump will just after this break and we go to a world famous gouty street chambers to speak to its founder julian assange just lawyer geoffrey robertson q.c. that's all coming up after this break. after the previous stage of my career was over everyone wondered what i was going to do next the ball different clubs on one hand it is logical to sort of go from fields where everything is familiar on the other i wanted a new challenge and a fresh perspective i'm used to surprising. one on t.v. . i'm going to talk about

football not for you or else you just think i was going to go. by the way ways of. i mean more to gain is an outstanding person because he took on the most powerful agency in this county for you to stay this look at some of the before now and. mark was the day that when he was finding that the lions. do going to spin the sheriff's most contentious could take the is the first time i noticed something wasn't right in fleeced work pretty much money for starters the corruption in palm beach county is not something that you can smell it seems like it's a nod and a wink it wasn't what i wanted to do. we've had more shootings in this county then some states have had collectively children

went to this website began featuring comments about his family the show it's like men. wash you like a bug you know we should stop then you should say unless you stop i believe what i'm doing also it's ok you know it's your funeral building f.b.i. raided p.b.s. and a critic dude in this house. i snuck out of the united states. into russia political stunt. men they know as bad wolf. there are millions of people in america and around the world who are better educated than ray dahlia but in order to succeed on wall street you need to complete lack of empathy this is been driven in study after study after study re dahlia has no consideration about the effect he's having out society and the ruination of the

lives that he's contributing to my being a leak on the system which is hedge fund that's a lack of empathy and think there that that takes a certain kind of myopia and stupidity to work yourself into that state. welcome back i'm still here with legendary journalist and filmmaker john pilger as of the timing of this interview there's been no real solidarity shown by bernie saunders unlike fellow presidential candidate for the democrats tools that god would but here we've been told on in the united states clinton e-mail releases why we keep leaks were embarrassing rather than any mention say of a money from the clinton foundation from nations associated with islam is terrorism what's the difference here embarrassing the us is. corruption and corruption against the interests of the united states i think but shows the

almost. what is it it's a it's a kind of primal need to protect these people the clinton e-mails the pedestrian the miles what they showed was that clinton hillary clinton was. a bedfellow of those who backed john hardison in the middle east that she knew that the backers of jihadism. in in in in the middle east principally saudi arabia. she knew what they were doing. so she knew about the source of jihadism when i asked was at its height and she was then secretary of state and she organized the biggest arms deal

in history in selling arms american arms to saudi arabia. but it made her a de facto ally of jihad ism in the middle east what that has to do with embarrassment i don't know if anyone's barassi i would have thought she is or ought to be and her superiors and her underlings in washington it's a ridiculous way of characterizing it let's get involved seven the largest cia leak in history via wiki leaks and important about the revelations of malware in oil our mobile phones and making hacks appear as if they're from china or in russia edward snowden has explained all this your phone can spy on us it really infuriated.

the cia and that's very understandable because it told us what they're up to it told us the the intensity and sophistication of their surveillance and so much of this and i mentioned earlier about some almost everything has to do with america. trying to reclaim its dominance particularly in relation to china the whole campaign against wild way. is over five g. technology and wild way has claimed with some justification that their devices the only ones without a backdoor that the n.s.a. cannot enter and other words you can have a device from wild way that isn't contaminated by the n.s.a. and all the other agencies in the united states. and you could also have five jury

the chinese development in technology is soaring ahead but has so much to do with all of this what about the fact that as explicitly emphasize one cable from embassador william roebuck to destabilize syria that big news story that's all but disappeared from all of front pages in recent wake weeks that that cable supposedly about instigating a war as far back as twenty zero six the media as i've said is an extension of governments and their vested interests and the british government the u.s. government. set out to overthrow the government in syria they failed so far they failed for those who wanted to know the truth there was in the wiki leaks cable the the destabilisation of of syria but look you can go back i've seen

m i six cables back in the fifty's that have been declassified but the talk about. the same thing about how they can destabilize syria. it was then assad's father syria was a important piece in the in the whole middle east chess game for western powers western oil powers that's been going on for a very long time job thank you now to the world famous daddy st chambers in london just speak to julian as a lawyer geoffrey robertson q.c. . jeffrey the foreign secretary jeremy hunt said sanjay is no hero no one is above the law he said he's hidden from the truth for years and years he will face british justice the home secretary said to germany ahead of the release of further or further arrests of jury as i said he's right be facing justice in the u.k. where he's not facing justice in the u.k.

other than for breach of bail which is a very minor offense usually dealt with by a fine or a few weeks in prison these politicians so he may be there stirring up the judges to give him a couple of months but the justice that he's facing in is justice or injustice in america which wants him and has charges riddy for up to forty five years imprisonment and that's a long time so not very hard to plan all of that which would prevent an extra dollar or death penalty as a red herring which the ecuadorian government has used to justify the outrageous behavior it's cruel and really a breach of faith in handing over forcibly its own asylum seeker they've given asylum to you but seven years to the police that's something that is

unprecedented in the law of asylum and will make ecuador detested country in among those who believe that asylum law should be properly conducted but. the claim that oh the british government has told us they will not extradite or short us that they will not extradite to a country with the death penalty is simply nonsense the british government faces a law that doesn't allow it to extradite anyone one of us is or it is said that their ways into jail and penalty well it's not one of the charges he's charged with conspiracy with child c. manning now that that is means that he's charged with agree with troops in manning to make public details of

sometimes crimes against humanity committed by american troops remember the man's aerial manslaughter when they shot those reuters journalists and a couple of children from from the helicopter that was put in that sondra made available and is now are going to be the americans have their way is going to be a result in him not only spending years fighting the case but being sent to jail and to britain acts just like a colony obviously under british law you can be arrested for a public interest release nair i reread i have a lot of british authorities to work i would know that i would help the british judges have enough belief in freedom of information to actually throw out this extradition request but what does this mean for the guardian the new

york times to speak aloud rusbridger the guardian schultz well yeah really they've all they all the arrests of interior it was an action where they could be but of course politically they were being the idea of making a sondre keeper is that he's not a particularly like. well person who doesn't have the sort of establishment credentials of the new york times or the guardian his conviction and sentence just like josie manning will be a terror to other publishers in europe everywhere to criticize and reveal information of misbehavior by american troops what if even macaskill of the guardian reveals the chelsea manning was in close contact with the guardian and so on is it up to those newspapers in a sense to defend the songes all or because obviously julian's and has never stated

that tells you manning was the whistleblower they have their letter drop kind of the. scenario he's being accepted the journalistic principle of protecting his source that something the journalist pertained to follow and sometimes their proprietors did because this is a monumental attack by this rotten american administration but of other politicization of justice in this country than you alluded to ministers i mean would you have long been talking about the u.n. human rights committees education that he was under three to ten year by the british government alan duncan the minister of state for europe and the americas that's total rubbish well doesn't know a thing about the law and his comments of course are hostile to us. all this government's ministers and you can you expect him to get a fair trial when they're bad mouthing him i think you can and i think bush judges

i have i have faith in them but whether i have faith in the u.s. supreme court is another matter because by the time this case comes before them and we're talking maybe five years. yes how many trump appointees will be on that court if you can do these extra land would you say governor well i hope he would be about if he is extraordinary didn't faces in prison long term of imprisonment it would of course he would claim because the trump argument is this that the first amendment which protects. famously only applies to american life and doesn't apply to any foreign journalists even those working for american papers in fact jim goodale who was the hero of the pentagon papers case he was the lawyer

for the new york times he came out of retirement the other day and he said the case however much you dislike. his case is the most important for media freedom since the pentagon papers case the a.c.l.u. backs that kind of thing you founded this chambers dowdy street chambers and have always talked about free speech for years and it is that one of your colleagues of all clooney i think works here has been appointed by the foreign office a special envoy on media for you can you help swing it can you and i do that but a matter of good will be left to the foreign office but as a chambers we do a lot of free speech with geoffrey robertson thank you. so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have it's crazy. let it be an

arms race often very dramatic bad developing the only and. i don't see how that strategy will be successful very critical time to sit down and talk. u.s. veterans who come back from war often tell the same stories. were going after the people who were killing civilians they were not interested in the wellbeing of their own soldiers either there already is several generations of them so i just got this memo from the circular defenses officer says we're going to attack and destroy their governments and in seven countries in five years americans pay for the wars with their money others with their lives if we were willing to go into harm's way and willing to risk being killed for a war surely we can risk some discomfort for an easy

for us. the business model of facebook is to pressure people to continue communicating through facebook and giving facebook personal information this is what makes facebook a surveillance monster show facebook does not have users facebook has used its people their face for news it's. there are millions of people in america and around the world were better educated than ray dahlia but in order to succeed on wall street you need to complete lack of empathy this is driven in study after study after study re deleo he has no consideration about the effect he's having of society and the world the ruination of the lives that he's contributing to by being a leech on the system with is hedge fund that's a lack of empathy and play there that takes

a certain kind of myopia and stupidity to work yourself into that state. with julian assange charged in the u.s. with conspiracy to hack government computers the issue of his alleged links to russia are once again being raised in washington. more than seventy people are reportedly killed in libya in a week because the international community remains split over how to deal with the country's the escalating conflict. and the german justice minister is roundly criticized after giving an interview to want to use the german sister channel in which she mentions close ties between berlin and to moscow. even purposely and we maintain close ties with russia russia was and always will be our partner.