and be prosecuted so can the editors of those newspapers that carried their work this is on this this is an assault on journalism but you know it more than that it's an assault on citizenship because it can happen to anybody right across the world it is saying that international law doesn't apply julian was an accredited. beneficiary of the whole notion of of of asylum. the united nations working party on aba tree detention made that absolutely clear and it was clear in couple months to which britain is a signatory now if that can be torn up if a regime as mired in in mercan corruption as the lenin

merino regime in ecuador is today can call in the police in any country to arrest asylum seekers then think of all a historical examples we don't have to think about them so much i reported from the soviet union at the height of the cold war in the nineteen seventies and i've watched the k.g.b. and their associates do something similar to dissidents intimidate them march them out of their of their flats intimidate their families that was for political reasons what has happened to julian has happened on a political whim the idea that it's about bail and infringement is ridiculous we both know that. it's about getting him across to a supermax in the united states it opens up a whole chapter of really diminishing the very principles that came out of the

second world war upon which the universal declaration is based it shows how fragile a are do these lesser political beings in london in this government really understand that do they understand what they are setting in train i don't think so you say it's a warning to journalists journalists all around the world let alone here in britain's guy news channel four news because of c.n.n. in the united states seem much more keen to emphasize that this is nothing about. these big values your jogging about it's more about messiness in there the embassy now of course under the control of lynn marino in quito and and rape accusations of course they do because journalism journalism in recent years has changed not radically it was always the so-called mainstream was

always an extension of the state of this state ideology our freedom of debate has diminished but how the powerful are no longer challenge their chav challenge on the trivial level but how that know they're not challenge to about the greatest humanitarian disaster in the world today and that is in yemen for which the british government is largely responsible and where britons are helping to direct this this atrocity helping with bomb aiming for saudi aircraft and logistics and strategies and so on when is this when has this been made a a burning issue of debate we've handed the whole world of of the abandonment of basic democracy which is based on dissent on

challenging on holding power to account on revelation on the embarrassment of power. not trivial and paris month the embarrassment of the odd celebrity but real embarrassment and wiki leaks provided that service that public service of journalism and it did it without fear or favor you know they publish something like eight hundred thousand documents on russia documents from the kremlin documents that we used in in in court cases in in russia they published the same about china. but the united states and britain but to kill only the united states has aroused the ira because. what we're in the midst of at the moment is the

world's great superpower struggling to maintain its dominance its information dominance its technological dominance its cultural draw mountains and wiki leaks has presented an extraordinary hurdle to this julian asylum's they hadn't has become enemy number one but he should be and i don't say this lightly he should be hero number one hero number one because if we lose thier songes and there are many of them. a handful maybe there's certainly no one like him if we do lose the wiki leaks then we do lose a few holes trotter of freedom we stop questioning you said he is a hero the foreign secretary jeremy hunt has said he is no here or the prime minister tourism a started in the house of commons by saying the house should welcome his arrest

alan duncan the foreign minister said it's total rubbish to raise the un ruling on arbitrary detention and the judge because quite apart from the media that we talk about quite often the judge district court judge here michael snow in westminster magistrates' court characterized as sons as having the behavior of a narcissist who can't get beyond his own selfish interest well that's just abuse that's not a judge that's an abuse or another judge would recognise that as an abuser the rest frankly you name joe jeremy hunt the man responsible for. for so much destruction of the national health service when he was secretary of state for health i mean frankly i don't think these are credible people i think in the world of politics where a very diminished state i'm trying to be polite about this but. i mean commenting

on what hans says all the rest of them it used to be like commenting on what boris johnson says there's the problem there's another problem of course where is the opposition diane abbott made a spirited effort to describe julian a son has dilemma's in these help and so on but what of the leader what to jeremy corbin say he said that the government should oppose his extradition i mean frankly it's best that jeremy coleman doesn't say anything rather than tepid remarks like that if there was an opposition leader who could stand up to the maze the hans and the rest then perhaps we'd have some sense of real truth in debate to simply say the government should oppose the extradition is not enough it should be spelt out in in parliament what this this this extradition might mean.

it that it threatens julian's life that he could end up spending the rest of his life in the kind of conditions. that the u.n. reporter on torture has already described he's already said that that's what he faces that's what we need to hear from the political opposition in britain ok well let's go to one of the most important wiki leaks revelations according to julian his sons you obviously covered so many decades of war by great powers he said the u.s. special forces unconventional warfare manual about savages subversion intelligence overthrowing foreign governments specifically naming the i.m.f. and the world bank in o.e.c.d. as players in these strategies for unconventional warfare he said that that was one of the most important leaks was it to you yes i think it was one of the most

important leagues because it it demonstrates the very nature of how the united states fights its colonial wars there are so many leaks that are related to telling us about the true nature of war of course what really got julian into trouble and chelsea manning of course was the video of collateral murder and that expressed most graphically what i would describe as the whole homicidal nature of american colonial wars and especially in iraq the three hundred sixty degree view of just kill them all and anybody watching that video. really has to read very little else of the wiki leaks revelations about the nature of american wars because there it is there is a kind of consensual belief i'm trying to think of

a polite term for brainwashing frankly that. we don't do these kind of things we are perpetually but nine. on our side and the americans are part of that these things simply do not happen they only they only happen on their side they only are they done by totalitarian states. they're done by rogue states when in fact clearly the biggest rogue state of all is the united states. the one that ignores international law that has threatened the prosecutor of the international criminal court has has told us that . she can't have a visa to visit. the new york john pilger i'll stop you that more from john pilger after this break and we go to world famous gouty street chambers to speak to its

founder julian assange just lawyer geoffrey robertson q.c. that's all coming up after this break. i. join me every thursday on the alex simon schill and i'll be speaking to guest of the world of politics sports business i'm show business i'll see you then.

so what he's got to do is identify the threats that we have it's crazy confront cation let it be an arms race off and spearing dramatic development only personally i'm going to resist i don't see how that strategy will be successful very critical time to sit down and talk. but ok so what's this if you. use the first one to the finish we just finished from a few. hundreds. let us. just who do. you think it was national guard. to. play to. cover this. from what was

your film composers. there are full supports these critics one of the most musical yet you believe because they feel. shamed into life and the smear. you. oppose someone. because of the style if you please. those are the gate have to be changed and we're still living with historical legacy sophie decimalization most of the. legal frameworks in invest in well all of them are designed for industrial base of the stick watch and now we're

moving ahead and i think the problem is that our concepts are behind. welcome back i'm still here with legendary journalist and filmmaker john pilger as of the timing of this interview there's been no real solidarity shown by bernie saunders unlike fellow presidential candidate for the democrats. but here we've been told that in the united states clinton e-mail releases why we keep leaks were embarrassing rather than any mention say of money from the clinton foundation from nations associated with the mist terrorism what's the difference here embarrassing versus. corruption and corruption against the interests of the united states i think but shows the almost. what is it it's a it's

a kind of primal need to protect these people the clinton e-mails the pedestrian the miles what they showed was that clinton hillary clinton was. a bedfellow of those who backed john hardison in the middle east that she knew that the backers of jihad is them. in in in the middle east principally saudi arabia. she knew what they were doing. so she knew about the source of jihadism when i asked was at its height and she was then secretary of state and she organized. the biggest arms deal in history in selling arms american arms to saudi arabia.

but it made her a de facto ally of jihad isn't in the middle east what that has to do with embarrassment i don't know if anyone's barassi i would have thought she is or ought to be and her superiors and her underlings in washington it's a ridiculous way of characterizing it let's get involved seven the largest cia leak in history via wiki leaks important about the revelations of malware in oil our mobile phones and making hacks appear as if they're from china or in russia edward snowden has explained all this your phone can spy on us it really infuriated. the cia and that's very understandable because it told us what they're up

to it told us the the intensity and sophistication of their surveillance and so much of this and i mentioned earlier about for almost everything has to do with america. trying to reclaim its dominance particularly in relation to china the whole campaign against wild way. is over five g. technology and wild way has claimed with some justification that. their device is the only ones without a back door but the n.s.a. cannot enter another words you can have a device from wild way that isn't contaminated by the n.s.a. and all the other agencies in the united states. and you could also have five jury the chinese development in technology is soaring ahead that has so much to do with

all of this what about the fact that as explicitly emphasize one cable from embassador william roebuck to destabilize syria that big news story that's all but disappeared from all of front pages in recent wake weeks that that cable supposedly about instigating a war as far back as twenty zero six the media as i've said is an extension of governments and their vested interests and the british government the u.s. government. set out to overthrow the government in syria they failed so far they failed for those who wanted to know the truth there was in the wiki leaks cable the the destabilisation of of syria but look you can go back i've seen m i six cables back in the fifty's that have been declassified but the talk

about. the same thing about how they can destabilize syria. it was then assad's father syria was a important piece in the in the whole middle east chess game for western powers western oil powers that's been going on for a very long time you know belgium thank you now to the world famous daddy st chambers in london to speak to julian as a lawyer geoffrey robertson q.c. . jeffrey the foreign secretary jeremy hunt said songes no hero no one is above the law he said he's hidden from the truth for years and years he will have faced british justice the home secretary said to germany ahead of the release of further or further arrest of jury has said he's right be facing justice in the u.k. where he's not facing justice in the u.k. other than for breach of bail which is a very minor offense usually dealt with by

a fine or a few weeks in prison these politicians so he may be there stirring up the judges to give him a couple of months but the justice that he's facing in is justice or injustice in america which wants him and has charges rid eat for up to forty five years imprisonment and that's a long time so not a very articulate map which would prevent an extra dollar or death penalty is a red herring which the ecuadorian government is used to justify the outrageous behavior it's cruel and really it's a breach of faith in handing over forcibly its own asylum seeker they've given asylum to you but seven years to the police that's something that is unprecedented in the law or of asylum and will make ecuador detested country in

among those who believe that asylum law should be properly conducted but. the claim that oh the british government has told us they will not extradite or short us that they will not extradite to a country with the death penalty is simply nonsense the british government faces a law but doesn't allow it to extradite anyone but if u.s. authorities said that their ways into jail a penalty well it's not one of the charges he's charged with conspiracy with child c. manning now that that is means that he's charged with a green with troops he manning to make public details of sometimes crimes against humanity committed by american troops remember the

man's aerial manslaughter when they shot those reuters journalists and a couple of children from from the helicopter that was put in that assad made available and is now are going to be the americans have their way is going to be a result in him not only spending years fighting the case but being sent to jail and to britain acts just like a colony obviously under british law you can't be arrested for a public interest release narrow i reread the british authorities to work i would know that i would help the british judges have enough belief in freedom of information to actually throw up this extradition request but what does this mean for the guardian the new york times and to speak a lot of rusbridger of the guardian officials were here really they've all they all

the rest of it tear it connection where they could be but of course politically they won't be the idea of making a sound scapegoat is that he's not a particularly likable. person who doesn't have the sort of establishment credentials of the new york times or the guardian his conviction and sentence just like josie manning will be a terror to other publishers in europe everywhere to criticize and reveal information of misbehavior by american troops what if even macaskill of the guardian reveals the chelsea manning was in close contact with the guardian and so on is it up to those newspapers in a sense to defend the songes all or because obviously julian's and has never stated that tells you manning was the whistleblower they have their letter drop kind of

the sort of scenario he's being accepted the journalistic principle of protecting his source that something the journalist pertained to follow and sometimes the proprietors don't because this is a monumental attack by this rotten american administration but of other politicization of justice in this country than you alluded to ministers i mean you have long been talking about the u.n. human rights committees education that he was under three to ten year the british government is alan duncan the minister of state for europe and the americas that's total rubbish where our gov can doesn't know a thing about the law and his comments of course are hostile to us are. all this government's ministers and you can you expect them to get a fair trial when they're bad mouthing him i think you can and i think bush judges i have i have faith in them but whether i have faith in the u.s.

supreme court is another matter because by the time this case comes before them and we're talking maybe five years. how many trump appointee ease will be on that court if you can do these extra land would you say call them well i hope he would be about if he is extradited faces in prison long term of imprisonment it will of course he will claim because the trump argument is this that the first amendment which protects the list famously only applies to american life and doesn't apply to any foreign journalists even those working for american papers in fact driven goodale who was the hero of the paid to go on papers case he was the lawyer for the new york times he came out of retirement the other day and he said we go sondra case however much you dislike because. his case is the

most important for media freedom since the pentagon papers case the a.c.l.u. backs like kind of thing you founded this chambers dowdy street chambers and have always talked about free speech for years i noticed that one of your colleagues a while clooney who i think works here has been appointed by the foreign office a special envoy on media for you can you help swing it can you and i do street and i but a matter of that will be left to the foreign office but as a chambers we do a lot of free speech where geoffrey robertson thank you. us

veterans who come back from war often to list seems to or is. were going after the people who were killing civilians they were not interested in the wellbeing of their own soldiers either there already is several generations of them so i just got this memo from a certain french officer says we're going to attack and destroy the government and seven countries in five years americans pay for the wars with them money on those lines if we were willing to go into harm's way and willing to risk being killed for a war surely we can risk some discomfort or uneasiness for. there are millions of people in

america and around the world who are better educated than ray dahlia but in order to succeed on wall street you need to have complete lack of empathy this is driven in study after study after study re dahlia has no consideration about the effect he's having out society and the the ruination of the law that is contributing to my being a leak on the system with as hedge fund best lack of empathy and there that takes a certain kind of myopia and stupidity to work yourself into that state. i mean more doogan is an outstanding person because he took on the most powerful agency in this county for you'll be to stay if you look at it from the analogy. marc was the day that when he was fighting the goliath mog doogan has been the surest most contentious critic for years the first time i noticed something wasn't

right in fleece work pretty much when i first heard of the corruption in palm beach county is not something that you can smell it seems like a bad it's a now. and the wing wasn't what i wanted to do. we've had more shootings in this county then some states have had a collective thing to go and went to his website began featuring comments about his family the sheriff might. wash you like a bug you know i wish you'd stop then you should stay on the left and stuff i believe what i'm doing also it's ok you know it's your funeral f.b.i. raided p.b.s. a critic in the house. i snuck out of the united states. into russia political. men they know bad wolf.

joining a song's charged in the u.s. with conspiracy to hack government computers the issue of his alleged links to russia once again being raised in washington. french police used tear gas against yellow vests protesters in the twenty second consecutive weekend of demonstrations against the government. and the german justice minister is roundly criticised after giving an interview to auntie's german says the channel in which she mentions close ties between the and the moscow. going about and we maintain close ties with russia russia was and always will be.