hello and welcome to cross talk where all things considered i'm peter lavelle all about push and co was out in comics is i mean he is in the presidential contest wasn't even close saying ukrainians voted for change is an understatement change is what ukraine needs can this political novice to live or what is next for ukraine. talking ukraine i'm joined by my guest mary the chef skiing in london she's a columnist for the independent in amsterdam we have case then he is a retired professor of international relations at sussex university and author of flight m.h. seventeen ukraine in the new cold war and in new york across to daniel was our he's an author and freelance journalist who writes frequently about the middle east

eastern europe and the us constitution right cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate mary let me go to you first in london i understand that you were in ukraine just recently i guess broadly speaking is the post now starting the post my doll my don era i mean the last five years in retrospect what does it mean with the election of this political novice go ahead mary in london. well i mean there are so many aspects to this and it was such an interesting election i spent quite a lot of the last month actually at different times in different parts of ukraine. and i think you're probably right in saying that it's the end of the five years of the post my down period. but i think it's also the start of something else which is part of a more unified ukraine. ever since

i've been covering ukraine it's been divided. between east and west and that line has sort of moved further and further towards the east but i felt this time i was both in the west in vive and the furthest east i went was too hard to give. in both places i felt that there was a focus on the future of ukraine which was less dependent on. europe in a way. because we've seen all those pictures from five years ago where there were european flags everywhere and europe was seen as the future and europe is still seen as the future but it seems to me that the focus at the moment is very much more on ukraine and this is something that.

managed to tap into well yeah i mean at the same time mary i mean it was an absolute disaster i mean it wasn't difficult to go i think i mean even with all of his administrative resources which i know people like him use lavishly for their own advantage let me go let me go to case in amsterdam i mean what really made so i mean ski different than anyone else particularly puerto shankar was the stress on anti corruption which really he puts his finger on the button there i mean that is the systemic structural problem that ukraine faces you you have these all the guards that have captured the state now how can this political novice having no basis in the rada elections are six months away i mean he could be a disappointment within six months go ahead case in amsterdam. that's very well possible because we think that somebody when somebody has the title of president that he has the country in his hands because we live in an era. which we identify

a country with one person you know russia's putin venezuela is duro and the united states is trump but in fact a president is somebody who surrounded by hundreds of people who represent interests that will not take no for an answer and i think if you come in as a novice and an outsider like alinsky. this wall of potential naysayers is even higher. because you are you haven't built up a network of your own confidence who can penetrate these interests so he can be can say that he will fight corruption but that has been done before in creating you know. shank also for corruption but it turned out it was especially the corruption of the other oligarchs not her corruption right not her corruption ok all right let me let me get exactly going to join you you're going to daniel new york said right

after he was elected he said we will launch a very powerful information war to end the war in donbass what in the world does that mean no one really knows yes i mean you're right about you're right that everybody wants to fight everybody else's corruption and of course the lansky is closely allied with a column oist the. perhaps the most a tory a single oligarchy and the ukraine. so it's unclear whether this is a clean sweep or simply a replacement of one set of oligarchy with another. and and the lewinsky faces a huge problem in the in the east a war that is on resolve that is dragging on that he really has no idea how to resolve and still keep himself in power the military the ukrainian military has has signaled its own unhappiness with the winds. and the the ukrainian intelligence

service the s.b.u. . it's investigating him as to whether he received russian contribution all my goodness so i he could very easily face a revolt of the state just just as from a very interesting echo it is. no more than one country can play that card here mary you said you talked to a lot of people when you were there from the very west going into the heartland of ukraine what were they saying that was on their mind was it corruption because i think it's fair to say even those i mean skis are t.v. comic everybody knows who he is but he's not associated with the corruptness of the political elites i mean too much and go poroshenko these people we've seen for what twenty years in ukraine in politics this is one of the reasons why do you kind of a populist revolt that i could put it in shorthand go ahead mary. yes well i think that there was almost unanimity among people i spoke to who said yes zielinski

is a very rich man but the way he got his money was not by swindling the ukrainian people it wasn't as they saw it through corruption they saw him as having earned his money on this by his talent as an actor and by his business expertise in running successful media companies and they put his money in a completely different group from the money of the oligarchs which they saw as ill gotten gains and there was absolute agreement that now i would also say that while it seemed to me that he was a figure that a lot of ukrainians could sort of agree on and pin their hopes on nonetheless there were quite different reasons why people were going to vote for him in what you described as heartless. say in the west now in the. very far west that was the only

place that. did well surety of fote but you didn't have to go very much further to the east to find that there was support for saline ski because he was seen as a sort of. a modern type of guy who could take ukraine into the future and those areas i went to kill it to vinnitsa which of course is the sort of center of poorer persian cohen has to have his large chocolate factory is there. but they voted quite strongly in favor of cillian and the view there was that maybe he would be able to give sort of more hope and encouragement to trade looking west to aligning ukraine's economy more closely with some of the prosperity as they see it in poland when you get to heart of the priority

was rather different the priority there was not so much looking west and certainly there was the there was a desire to end what they saw as economic prosperity economic austerity and the poverty that you find really quite close to the edge of the city. but interestingly there the conflict in the east of ukraine was a much bigger issue you have so people are basically fed up with you know they want it and yeah but you're very good in doing so when he when zelinsky was talking about wanting to. do it very early on in the campaign he said he wanted direct talks with russia and he would say he was really condone you know you know exactly be because he walked away from me we tracked it down by election yes you know it but now he's going to be president it may be different well his first tweet tweet

tweet. in two languages russian and ukrainian interesting i'm not going to read a lot into it yeah ok so let me go do something and. we go to case in amsterdam the interesting thing is that as mary were saying there are people that are sick and tired of this conflict that shouldn't be going on at all in the donbass but unfortunately again we go back to corruption there are quite a few people that are making money off of contraband smuggling all kinds of things like that and that conflict is very good for them go couldn't do anything about it i can't see how in the world is going to be able to do anything about it because it's a close circle he's not in that all of garc a corrupt circle go ahead case. well what he what he misses especially i think is the ability of a. putin like figure who can clamp down on all the oligarchs and put them in one group so you have a new crane this continuing battle between. the people formerly of the near

profit off group against met of the others from the east and that that conflict is not resolved. also if i may. have a turnout of forty five percent in the second round didn't really sound to me as if it was a you know heated battle that this was a protest vote and even a very lukewarm one so i don't think the monday to selenski house is very strong i'm listening with great interest to what mary is saying about what she heard on the on the ground but in the end of figures are not of a powerful mandate if you compare the first round was sixty three percent turnout and now forty five so even a landslide is in this case this case a very small one here one which one will get personal and when you elect or it's one we get the impression that a lot of people means on playing politics can solve their problems and if we're in

that situation it's pretty pretty depressing are not going to jump in here we're going to go to a short break and out about short break we'll continue our discussion on ukraine stay with r.t. . what is bitcoin coin is magic internet money the new type of digital currency the centralized digital scarcity chancellor bring a second bailout for a bank that's called the genesis blog for reason calling it civil disobedience a source of optimism because i can control my own financial death any it's just a new way of coming to consensus it's a game changer in the human history this is columbus discovering the new world this

paradigm shifting technology that transforms economics and finance in a heartbeat the apollo eleven landing. to the max and stacey. we could only be dealt with the rule book. for the fall to do. i'll sell something. to keep. playing. the among the group of. the movies you did well yeah except you're then he says and pulls whistles like need for the security. oh.

well psycho. wall enclosure we're going to produce a. signal. it is the absolutely divisive as this was the last stop at the push and i will. join me every day on the alex i'm unsure when i'll be speaking to get off of the world of politics sports business i'm show business i'll see you then. welcome back across the uk where all things considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing ukraine.

ok let's go back to new york daniel let's talk about what's in the cards for ukrainian russia relations something that is very contentious obviously put a shango use the anti russia card all the way through didn't seem to help them at all and then selinski has said that the ban on russian. intertainment actually be allowed to come to ukraine he during his campaign he used russian and ukrainian. a softer touch for sure but are they are the institutional forces in ukraine as they stand right now just dead set against him making any kind of move he says he's for the normandy format though we would like to see the united states for example part of the format which i think is. well i guess it's all part of his kind of surprise campaign i don't really know what that means so he has he's

been very unclear but he's been has a softer touch i don't know is that going to make any difference in terms of policy . well i think it will make a difference difference sure i mean first of all i want to point out the. sweeping defeat this yet of the for the the hardliners in washington i mean our poor shanker ran out rat on a slogan of army language face selenski is jewish he he. speaks better russian than ukrainian and he's lukewarm to the war in the east so he's the exact opposite of poor shank the exact opposite of the of the the hardline lobby in washington so this is a huge huge theater and incredible repudiation yeah but we did what daniel ukraine you've been on this program so many times and i really appreciated but i'm

not surprised when do they ever get it right ok what were those talking points written in washington you know petro this is going to work great for you of course it fell flat on its face ok the whole project is in tatters right now and what you know. is worst nightmare was the voice of the people and it is case put it out i mean it wasn't even a majority of people that voted i mean it chose to fit t. the intense fatigue that ukraine has gone through so let's go back to the original question daniel i mean possibility of warming of relations here because it seems like there's an underlying belief this conflict and russia still after all of this is still ukraine's major trading partner. yes i mean i mean that i mean he has to he has to walk back this hard line nationalist nationalism that washington has been has been pushing and which is essentially the lead to an explosion and ukrainian

russian relations he's got to he's got to reduce it he's got to tamp it down and in so doing he's got to fight very powerful elements in the military in the intelligence services in the media and also in the neo fascist militia which is now you know militias which are now running wild in the streets of kiev and other cities so he has a lot you know a lot of work to do but if he's able to roll back that nationalist wave then yes some kind of rapprochement some kind of reasonable reasonable accommodation with russia can be reached and i'm i trust i'm quite confident that moscow would meet him halfway on this but i think so too i think they would to want to jump in their case head case well. mind you the speaker of the environment. who is

a figurehead of the of the of the what danielle rightly called new fascist militias i mean but this man has an enormous power base and it may be eroding it may be bent out of fashion but it's still there and i find it hard to believe that certainly so much i don't know maybe america can say something about what it means that i wasn't aware that zelinsky jewish background for media doesn't make so much ado of a difference but maybe in a crane it does and it might undermine him against a figure like peru in the group said he represents because these people are anti russian but also in semitic and we have to point out in the cases it put a shank oh feared these groups. we feared them ok they would surround the residential power as they would they threaten to use force here i mean let me go to marry me so let's get a program a servant of the people and apparently he was a good acting president on television here now given what we just heard from daniel

in case here. is he have any what is the good need to be successful because we all see the downside now that we don't want him to succeed we all want him to succeed we all want to see ukraine succeed we all want to see this conflict come to an end but give it give me a glimmer of hope mary. well i think that there are three points the title like to pick up on sort of what what's just been said really one of them is about control of the parliament and who is speaker and how parliament might react because parliament could be a big block on zielinski doing anything. at the same time there are going to be parliamentary elections in october where there could be candidates for a zelinsky party and he could have a parliamentary power base plus it's possible people were talking last week it's possible that parliamentary elections could be brought forward so that's the

question of parliament question of zilinskas jewish background is very very interesting because i expected once he reached the second round i expect that there would be quite a lot of dirty tricks and that as it were his background would be used against him . openly in attacks on that or sort of in the background just insinuations about his background now suppliers i could see that didn't happen so. political character what he appeared to be offering and his image as. this television president servant of the people those seem to be more important for ukrainian voters than his jewish background and i think that's you know that says something about ukraine today. and

the third thing i'd say is actually to go right back to the phrase that you used about him wanting to wage an information war yeah in the east. people said well we don't really know what that means and we don't know what it means but i think might have a clue as to what it means and what i think it means is trying to. encourage a charge so in mind hearts and minds trying to win hearts and minds in those rebel regions of ukraine and this is something that i mean i was very very negative about the way it seemed to me that persia and his administration basically gave up on its regions yeah they they left them to their own devices that they said well ok you know you're trying to be rebels so we're not going to arrange

for paying pensions we're not going to arrange for trade we're not going to arrange for basic necessities we're going to leave you to yourselves and maybe your friends yeah yeah but marianne i mean to say if i didn't like it if i could point out thirteen thousand people are dead ok i mean plus you know all those things plus thirteen thousand dead let me go to daniel here do you think washington is going to try to recalibrate or use my favorite term capture zelinsky you know get it get him on the right the straight and narrow what he's supposed to do if he wants to be part of the club a junior member of the club in the club nonetheless go ahead daniel. yes washington will bring all kinds of pressure to bear right out of washington will not recalibrate its own policy but it will try to recalibrate selenski is so it will use all kinds of pressure to bear and it has immense immense powers in this regard so you know dealing with washington will be a huge problem. ok well daniel let me stay with you i mean joe biden apparently had

a lot lawsuit dropped against a company that his son was working for one hundred biden and he did it within six hours of his stay in you know and because he was. threatening to withdraw one billion dollars in loans i mean you're talking about that kind of treatment daniel . yes but also we have you have john bolton who is a fierce anti russian hawk you know in power and that and that and the trumpet ministration my palm peo who who froth at the mouth whenever putin's name comes up so you know so there is so washington is fiercely anti russian of this point. never more so than after the release of the mueller reporting now that the press as you know was clamoring for for you know for the for putin's head so yes so if the linsky shows any sign of going soft being

a trying to reach an accommodation a compromise with russia he will face stiff pressure stiff pressure from washington you know case if you were to give some advice what would it be. well i would. make a big issue of transport to western europe because one of the reasons why russia has been constructing these lines through the baltic and also try to construct one through the black sea which which incidentally was was torpedoed by the mh seventeen. column by the whole conflict in the in february two thousand and fourteen it was to bypass the ukrainian. pipelines to western europe and the reason why you crane price itself out of the market was because they didn't want to give in on the fees that they were asking for the transit of the of the us and i think is. please the whole.

case don't you think that train has already left the station because of the poor decision making of the ukrainian government russia in the e.u. have just gone a different way i mean north dream too is going to be done by the end of the year it's a done deal i mean they shot themselves in the foot and now no one needs to use the crane as a transit country and they will be able to siphon any more gas off from the russian supply and so i mean they shot themselves to put this right and believing the european union is going to be their savior when it comes to trade that that happened here and the cut in their companies and russia have in ukraine their withdrawn and they will never come back there where they've been replaced restarted in russia so i mean every why every single metric the last five years has been a disaster for ukraine and it's been self-inflicted by these elites here that's all the time we have here folks fascinating program we're going to keep an eye on it many thanks to my guests in london amsterdam and in new york and thanks to our

viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time and remember. the housing crisis was a result of securitizing mortgages that were resold to dozens of times and then like goldman sachs was. a fraud again. timothy geithner is friends and now they know of that controlled demolition of the housing market all the housing is concentrated in a few hands like blackstone as a gift from their friends of the central banks and the result is medieval.

eating should just have to keep this i live eat he didn't feel confident. we have many things in this world this isn't enough for everyone and why some peoples must take our things all the power just for themselves.

in a world of big. lot and yours it's time. to dig deeper to hit the stories that make history refuses to tell more than we need to be smart. we need to stop slamming the door. and shouting past each other it's time for critical thinking it's time to fight for the middle for the troops the time is now we're watching closely watching the hawks. but. i.

think. moscow confirms talks between the timea putin and kim jong un will take place in russia's far east on thursday details of the first ever meeting have been kept top secret. also this hour islamic state claims responsibility for a wave of deadly bombings in girls the sunday the country's defense minister claims the attacks were last month's massacre of muslim wash it was the new zealand. team best to gauge the links between the us government on facebook as the social media giant introduces its new general counsel a legal advisor the us state department. believes and if they have

a knife they already.