more than a decade ago so this week we asked the former scottish justice secretary kenny macaskill what these lessons really are whether they can be applied south of the border the mere underbid the home secretary can recognise that the underlying solutions need addressed equally balance it with the public reassurance when london can get through this but the got to address underlying reasons equally the also got to be able to give reassurance to young people who are frightened at the moment that they will be protected the policeman but they are to make sure that the person who might use a knife will be detected but first your tweets messages and emails in response to last week's show alister says is anyone keeping kind of the number of scottish initiatives that have since been copied by westminster or the labor party i have no idea maybe you could start a list it's a good idea faces really enjoyed this episode what an inspiration prince says dr mark prince will be most certainly was to mark says once again tackling issues

bereft of westminster water cracking shools guard mackenzie also speaks of dr mark prince the steward in the loss of his son says fabulous as always but dr mark prince that was so personal and touching not for the first time watching your show i was deeply moved by his story the authorities in london seem very reluctant to take advice or listen to anybody though which is very sad if not i reckon it's. finally donald says stop and search randomly at school entrances and major events will help he also suggest on the spot community service of two hundred hours for any forest offense i care very much for tweets and e-mails now the home secretary speech in east london last week was his first on crime his commitment to move to a public health approach has received a cautious welcome across the political parties the public health approach which is something i announced towards the end of last year and that again was through

listing to experience from both other parts of the u.k. from other countries as well who have also seen a a similar rise in serious violence and i think we should learn from wherever we can and i think it is important to have such an approach which requires all government departments all agencies of government to treat serious violence as a as the way we would treat for example a disease to prioritize it and to make it a statutory duty and underpinning the cross government effort that he mentioned has to be a public health approach to tackle the root causes of violence this is something we thought the government favored to encompass saying looking at you services. housing social services mental health and health as a whole we are acutely aware of the problem of knife crime in scotland because until recent years it was a terrible scourge but as others have alluded to as a result of a radical change of approach to the problem the incidence of knife crime in

scotland has greatly reduced and crimes of handling an offensive weapon have decreased by sixty four percent between the years two thousand and seven two thousand and eight and two thousand and sixteen two thousand and seventeen and as we all know died this occurred because of a holistic approach which involved the creation of a violent reaction unit initially in glasgow were known for the whole of scotland funded by the scots. government which treats violent crime as a public health problem and a social problem too many children with multiple and adverse childhood experiences are excluded from school which in turn can lead them to become involved in gangs and violence if we are to tackle this epidemic of youth violence we need an approach whether you call it public health but we need an approach which is trauma informed i care for children with a c e s the public health public education approach is right together with more police officers but wasn't

a former metropolitan police commissioner correct this morning when he said that ultimately our young people need to know that they're better off not being in possession of a knife than having that knife and therefore isn't it also time for us to have clearer mandatory sentencing for those caught in possession of a knife without just cause we must all acknowledge that this is an issue that transcends party lines particles can be divisive but if there was ever an issue to unite our efforts and inspire us to stand together then surely this is it. so there is now a growing consensus that this new approach modeled on this course experience is the way to move forward but will this make the difference that many hoped for alex turned to kenny macaskill scottish justice secretary from two thousand and seven to two thousand and fourteen who presided over the has started decline in one in scotland. kenny macaskill welcome to the exile issue. as the knife crime

crisis has escalated in london and elsewhere than in england there's been a lot of calls to adopt the scottish system sometimes called the glasgow system you must over an element of pride amid this crisis that people are looking north for a solution well i think so because it was a crisis but i think scotland can hold its head high and individuals deserve credit john connor and come across these were people who were instrumental in the violence adoption you did at least mostly police officers and brought in do tend to medics against violence and i think the lessons we learned in scotland being looted not sensibly i think don't here in england with by the media no by the home secretary that has to be dealt with in terms of our longer term strategy but i think we also have to remember that we have to balance it with some immediate action to reassure those who are concerned about it or you saw the home set much much build speech last week what was your initial reaction to what you say or think or welcome it i

think it's we have to be fair that bit of london it's gone before for the you call it infection for the call of disease for they call a culture young people in particular as happened in scotland over a decade ago were carrying knives they were doing so routinely and i remember we used to see that it was almost becoming on an apollo as well as you know getting your jacket you'd get your night before you went out so you've got to break that culture and there's no one simple solution is not one simple we as a cross abort but i think recognising that underlying issue has been taken on board and that's correct so what excites there is the scottish approach which the home to is the middle london puts many people into the saying we must adopt welding the scottish approach is actually threefold first of all that was the public health approach that it was a culture of disease of violence and we had to dress that that had to be dealt with by edges. organizations medics against violence telling young people you know that

i'm a fist defensive weapon this to see if we can use a knife equally we had to walk why young people carrying knives and i think it's a seam in london why are they carrying it a small minority of doing so because of badoer of evil intent some do because it's machismo but the overwhelming majority in london no i believe as you were in scotland because they were scared they were scared that somebody else was cutting a knife now you can threaten them with jail in scotland the opposition wanted six months and you want to two years but these young people were scared to get caught but they were more scared than before didn't get caught they were drawn into a gang or some other young person to die so they were cutting and i for their own personal protection so as well as reassuring them and they wasn't defensive weapons we required to shoot them that other people have been carrying knives and how did you do that they did two days one was to do the education about not carrying a knife but other was to reassure them that actually people who did carry and i were going to get caught and the punishment would be severe and not why i think

sometimes people look at the scottish method that was applied and forget that there was a. pretty big stack as well as a lot of that caught it dealing the underlying diseases there was an awful lot of stop and say it's not so much more problematic in london i realize because of the nature and scale of the city but there was an awful lot of stop and search because we had to be assured youngsters that those who carried a knife were going to get caught on a friday saturday night buses going into the city center in glasgow bergen scope by the police people were getting frist and stanch feder got polls had been developed i remember to find somebody was but we're used to really stations and bus stations so if you walked past the metal detectors people will get it stopped and say it's because we had to as well as educate people don't use a knife it's not for protecting yourself you can't do that it was also about seeing those who do carry will get caught so there was an awful lot of high visibility policing to provide. immediate reassurance so i think the home secretary and the

media are on the right track in terms of the underlying long term approach but you've also got to have some immediate action to reassure the public not just the public but to reassure these young stars who are scared and who are cutting naives not because they want to use them because they're frightened one will be used the name and the foolish decision that they'll carry one themselves some of those who say well you can't just transport. a scottish solution into london. police officer made the point he said that glasgow is a woman genius city which will be a surprise to the i think you've been deaf to the surprise of the people glasgow incidentally but there's obviously been a lot of clubs of s.c.l. don't stop and search in london towns or racial profiling what would happen if you were giving advice to the mayor of new homes how do they address that well i think you know i would be having a what with the deputy commissioner steve houses he did have a mockable job having come up from london to glasgow started out in london in the

be much the wiser and better for his experiences in scotland i think it's fair to say that yes you can't take the model that was in glasgow and immediately put it in think it will fit to london it's two different contexts but the general underlying direction of travel i think has been recognised so the say i think it's not recognition there's an understanding you've got to what why you know why a maze being carried what is a solution you've got to have some political courage you've got to have some time and by that but you've also got to have in some enforcement to be able to deliver it so as to say i think the home secretary what i would say to him i think he's on the right track in recognising the underlying causes i do think he's got to give public reassurance not just as a seed to wider communities are frightened but to youngsters who are going out tonight and who have maybe want to reassure them that they don't need to carry a knife because those who are going to cut in one will get caught and that cites them by visible pally. presents the odd difficulties about stop and search in london that has to be used in

a method that success but you have to provide reassurance to young people that those who are carrying out going to get caught and that have to be consequences for those who are caught so you've got to get that balance right random stop and search isn't going to work to see it providing some immediate reassurance but some time getting some understanding of providing reassurance not to see to those who abide but to those who are foolish that they don't need to because those who are evil will get caught coming up after the break our interview with kenny macaskill continues he warns london politicians that the public health approach to knife crime has to be balanced with tough measures to be successful.

what holds his hands to. put themselves on the line. to get accepted or rejected. so when you want to be president. more so more want to be rich. to want to be pros that's what before you know more people. are going to studios in the waters of . course. but never this famous french william the new wave of pop back in the sixty's i

think a little bit well yes until the audience right happens they eat themselves to death yes and it's really kind of violence actually hard to watch but it's gross or burping and farting in the puking and it's just keep on eating in the right that's the black stuff. the way jamie diamond there in the morning themselves to death almost to say oh sorry. and they themselves will perish and take their entire country down with sound because they can't stop there's no editor and their minds are like goldfish in a bag of food i just keep the song. welcome back across the political parties with substantial support from community activists there is a move to learn lessons from scotland to tackle nice cry and month and let us return to the interview with katie mccaskill. well he cautions on expecting me to

program let me tell you but in the will you have justice just in. you've got basically what's been happening in england no you've got screaming place headlines you've got tragedy after tragedy the number of fatalities from knives in school and i think reached a peak year it got stressed families coming to see you in the grief and demanding action you've got opposition politicians saying it'll jump this social work approach and get stuck in a prison sentence is not as to how to deal with that situation as a just the same well i think london as well as lending lessons from from the wider public health approach that frankly is being dealt with now they should also look at the new deputy commissioner forgotten steve because he was the chief constable of strathclyde data our largest single area and biggest police force and we had it was the epicenter of knife crime and you're right it was

a real crisis because it seemed south and i said just a second almost every week least once a month some young mind from a good back going to a lovely young man these life in front of him was slain and that was an outrage and understandably so action had to be taken and i think that the credit to steve use of the judiciary of the violent reduction you know was we held the line because to be able to implement what is no successful bellew we also had to be able to react and as every crisis whether it's a terrorist atrocity whatever you had to also give public reassurance not make high visibility policing it didn't mean that the people but the police were out there on the streets being seen showing to take action not just to reassure the good citizens but also to detail who was scared young men who might otherwise have taken a ninth not to take that knife because the police were there and there would be consequences if you did also increase the penalties for all. what actually happened

was that the sentences got longer for even though we didn't go for mandatory sentencing it was a dutch auction i think at one stage the tories wanted two year mandatory sentence simply for cutting and i flavor wanted six months and we knew that what would happen if we did that was silly freight and youngsters who went by and we'd end up going to prison and would come it was and having been a defense lawyer before i went into politics i knew that youngsters who went bad kids would go and young offenders institutes and become a new entity every car in the carpark because of what they picked up so we held the line those who needed to be continued to give the judiciary discretion if somebody had to go to jail for a very long time because the and by the grace of god had caught them cutting i before they'd done anything they in the got the powers to do that and fool support those who were stupid had defeated death. by a sheriff but they were let off with a community sentenced to do some hard labor in the community but not to go to jail

so we got i think the balance right that's what the judiciary wanted it was what the police wanted lock up the ones you need to lock up don't walk up the ones you do want to meet worse and this came to a head the political battle in the in the parliament in the two thousand and eleven election was something very curious happened where your lists of student the the best news got to have this lame policy succeed something very different happened well we've got a remarkably successful way you said to the majority government that was deliberate and twenty eleven i think it for that that was begun to resonate by twenty eleven it was beginning to decrease people were seeing we were walking away through it and i think you find that you know when you put forward a sensible policy good people stand with you and the policy was supported you know by police it was supported by the judiciary it was supported by youth and community what it was supported across the board by those in the front line who. this is

sensible this is what worked and always remember that it was late when john carmack and or steve house were thirty uniforms on would speak much more the politician the people who were making the attacks on the government or those politicians with short term simplistic the mines lock them up do this we have simplistic solutions been suggested london g.p.s. tracking and naive all these of sub the t's life has to go on so the method of you know we had an allies to what needed done we'd sure that it was working and we passed a field and i think in london if you know the mere underbid the home secretary can recognize that the underlying solutions need addressed equally ballance it with the public reassurance when one can get through this but the got to address underlying reasons and equally the also got to be able to give reassurance to young people who are frightened at the moment that they will be protected the policemen were there to make sure that the passion who might use a knife will be detected there's no is that the case closed the scope them is some

of the recent indications of when the luncheons been dramatic committed to sixty seventy percent and knife cutting in and fatalities but reached little last couple of years so some of the figures starting to edge buffed up again what are you. having cracked a case with. in line for some future tragedies i think it would be you know wise in scotland not to rest in a lot of great credit is owed to those individuals and all those organizations but i think you're right the train does tend to be creeping up again some of these things are cultural some of it comes because people are copycat and see things in the t.v. or potential under the sea sometimes it just gets out of the psyche in the mind of youngsters so you've got to be ever vigilant to stop and search as a tactic in the visible police presence i think it's something that has to be calibrated you've got to ramp up at times and you've got to decrease other times and it may be in scotland that we've gone. too far one we as in london have gone

too far the other and it may be that we've got to increase it slightly just to provide that reassurance it's not about policemen having nothing else to do it's about youngsters feeling that they can be a reassured that was cutting names will be caught so they don't need to carry a knife and have it there are differences between north and so for the boredom of the scot and police numbers have been very high levels in england famously and the election of the no prime minister then home say the police numbers were reduced substantially how big a factor is actual police numbers and be able to produce a visible police presence i think is a huge factor i mean community policing is what it's all about comes back to the point we were discussing earlier to provide that reassurance to youngsters you have to give them the reassurance that those who are going to get out of the knife are going to get caught that's got to come about from a visible policing how do you do it as for the local officers to describe a they've got to see be there because if i'm not there then the number going to be

able to target let alone stop and say it's those who are carrying the reason above all the stop and reduce thing from a million stop and searches in london alone a year the cost of that figure was the very heavy pressure from the the communities they have that minority communities do felt they were being targeted unfairly so how do you how do you approach a question from a london point of view we have clearly said communities deprived communities of a prevalence of knife violence these are also maybe the communities which have a disproportionate large number of b m b a minority communities so how do you manage to target these communities in order to make them safer with the consequence of people in these communities feeling we are being unfairly picked upon by the police i think the only solution is that the police have to sit down with the communities because i remember discussions and hard pressed housing schemes korea it was youngsters they have not to feed suburbs in edinburgh who have been stopped and. three youngsters would see they didn't mind because the police did it in

a manner that was fear they told them what they were doing and why they were doing it they didn't like it not suggesting that they did but they could see why it was being done to provide that safety and just to such in scotland because they were trying still on a variety of additional under the underlying message was the most surprising and list of that was presented to just to say what a boat to do you thought although most of anything a member. greenock you know which is an area blighted by cutting and they've cleaned but it was very a fateful because we thought and did things that were remarkably what would what we youngsters because i have to say what i've understood what we youngsters over get in pop stars will get in through dollars and i so i don't quit if you're you know i know a perfectly amar's that i know a lot football players always will get the most and actually all of it ensured that the youngsters that we'll need to target the ellipse in a different world now know that not the only people that matter to them was when

they were twelve or thirteen who had been the king of the walk time and it was getting a little guy going to the local guy and getting by who is who they had looked up to you know we might wonder why the top them back to the elite top to your rock stars and football all the flippin apollo universe to them and actually what was good offenders coming back and to see you know these were the ones he admired who said i've been there done it got the t. shirt you don't want to go there that was the only thing that was something that really hard as well as a member of a chalk outlines of bodies at schools and community centers that were quite poignant and they did the best advocate i ever saw that was and said it was and we showed in schools because we knew that young mayne as i was on the road think that a mortal. but i remember when i not been which was just the the mortician if i can picture that we with a khattab oh totally going to see that he was if you could see the moment because the reception of these young men who wanted to buy the money they wanted to if they

got stabbed and killed and they wanted to have a moment if they stop somebody and were going to jail they wanted to put the mom they thought they would always be a mortal but what he did the mom so the say targeting macy's targeting and realizing that the hardcore youngsters it's not celebrities the eleven a world where celebrities live in a different universe but they do recognize the passion that the thing was that the major stock was that hard line as we would call it in scotland the gangsta and if you can get those ones by can we still do the main thing those ones who have been there. been in prison come back and see you don't want to go there about what remarkably well so as i say look back and i laugh at my naivety because i don't think the rule of celebrities will put the men it's always to tell you what people say that this is all connected with gang violence but some of the statistics in scotland didn't support the idea that the majority of of my claim was coming from

gang friends of they came as coming from a youngster just packing it as they would do their belt on or your favorite jacket on it just became something that you had to do you were going out some did so simply because they were scared others because they thought it looked cool but it was a see it became a random paddle which is why we managed to get drops of sixty seven percent in the areas and north go sixty percent i think it was in good nick ropes and a knife translational carving of cutting or cutting of offensive weapons because it was becoming standardized and routine and it's ending that people will always carry weapons because there's always in the world in which we live going to be people of evil evil intent who are going to you know use they solicitously they have to be targeted by the police what we need to do is to stop those who don't want to carry in the first place and only do so because they're frightened for the kind of cast those of us the foremost goes justices who desire to work what is no generally knowledge as being an extraordinary success and violence dogs in the in the

cardigan knaves notices and fatalities if you got a message of hope for the for the mayor of london for the home such as the embark on this journey i think it's a journey and you're right and i was fortunate to be in a position and journey pretty well so i think whole journey of. build that coalition and there will be bumps but if you your house the house of the analysis stick to the plan you can address it and mccaskill thank you very much. and so the lessons from scotland seem pretty clear and pretty decisive but if the whole new approach to knife the public health approach copied from north of the border have any impact then that hostile reach communities such as there's some combo well and so for london the local hospital king's college is a few minutes down the road from where i'm standing last year alone and acts that i

may have to see it treated more than five hundred young people forty percent of them young women for style balloons or other serious injuries that's the level of violence going on in this community well the public health approach off of the possibility of a substantial reduction the message from scotland is it has to be passed. and next week i'm alex simon show i speak to free young men from communities such as this if i actually turn their lives around and ask what of their past still lesson has any lessons for the wider community. and so from myself and thais and everyone at the show it's good bye for now.

we can only if you don't support the law enforcement officers could use it to fight to soothe. i'll sell some properties to me if you don't have to keep. the mission about for someone to play if they don't. know you among the group of us from the mom. who build them all the movies you did what you except your then says the calls were false like need for the security just hold it while you go pick up.

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live. i. thought i made peyton and came joe maddon hold their first ever summit together describing the meeting is highly productive i think stress the willingness to work towards think we need care i say the curry in any. we just had a fairly alright one to one conversation from my three q. the greek trying to. come this hour human rights groups condemn is great test the beheading by saudi arabia of thirty seven people mostly from the shia minority and the largest mass execution in years. and the u.n. report claims government u.s. and international forces in afghanistan are responsible for more civilian deaths in the militants they've been fighting to get reaction from local.