gordon mackenzie also speaks of dr mark prince a stored in the loss of his son says fabulous as always but dr mark prince that was so personal and touching not for the first time watching your show i was deeply moved by his story the authorities in london seem very reluctant to take advice or listen to anybody though which is very sad if not i reckon it's. finally donal says stop and search randomly at school entrances and major events will help he also suggest on the spot community service two hundred hours for any forest offense i care very much he tweets and e-mails now the home secretary speech in east london last week was his first on crime his commitment to move to a public health approach has received a cautious welcome across the political parties the public health approach which is something i announced towards the end of last year and that again was through listing to experience from both other parts of the u.k.

from other countries as well also seen a similar rise in serious violence and i think we should learn from wherever we can and i think it is important to have such an approach which requires all government departments all agencies of government to treat serious violence as a as the way we would treat for example a disease to prioritize it and to make it a statutory duty and underpinning the cross government effort that he mentioned has to be a public health approach to tackle the root causes of violence this is something we thought the government favored to encompass saying looking at you services school exclusions housing social services mental health and health as a whole we are acutely aware of the problem of knife crime in scotland because until recent years it was a terrible scourge but as others have alluded to as a result of a radical change of approach to the problem the incidence of knife crime in scotland has greatly reduced and crimes of handling an offensive weapon have

decreased by sixty four percent between the years two thousand and seven two thousand and eight and two thousand and sixteen two thousand and seventeen and as if we all know died this occurred because of a holistic approach which involved the creation of a violent reaction unit initially in glasgow were known for the whole of scotland funded by the scots. government which treats violent crime as a public health problem and a social problem too many children with multiple at a.c.s. are adverse childhood experiences excluded from school which in turn can lead them to become involved in gangs and violence if we are to tackle this epidemic of youth violence we need an approach whether you call it public health but we need an approach which is trauma informed i only care for children with a c e s the public health public education approach is right together with more police officers but wasn't the former metropolitan police commissioner correct this morning when he said that ultimately our young people need to know that they're

better off not being in possession of a knife than having that knife and therefore isn't it also time for us to have clearer mandatory sentencing for those caught in possession of a knife without just cause we must all acknowledge that this is an issue that transcends party lines particles can be divisive but if there was ever an issue to unite our efforts and inspire us to stand together then surely this is it. so there is now a growing consensus that this new approach modeled on the scottish experience is the way to move forward but will this make the difference that many hoped for alex turned to kenny macaskill scottish justice secretary from two thousand and seven to two thousand and fourteen who presided over the has started decline in one thing in scotland kevin casco welcome to the wing silently sure. as the naive frame places escalated in london and elsewhere than england there's been

a lot of calls to adopt the scottish system sometimes called the glasgow system you must over there were a bit of prayed on the crisis that people are looking north for a solution well i think so because it was a crisis but i think scotland can hold its head high and individuals this. john connor and com mccluskey these were people who were instrumental in the violence adoption to the. police officers under broad and i would tend to medics against violence and i think the lessons we learned in scotland being looted not sensibly i think though here in england with by the media no by the home secretary that has to be dealt with in terms of a longer term strategy but i think we also have to remember that we have to balance it with some immediate action to reassure those who are concerned about it that you saw the homes that much much build speech last week what was your initial reaction to what they have to say well i think i welcome it i think it's we have to be fair

the bit of london it's gone before for the you call it infection for the call of disease for they call a culture young people in particular in scotland over a decade ago that were carrying knives they were doing so routinely and i remember we used to see that it was almost becoming on on a pothole as well as you don't get your jacket you'd get your night before you went out so you've got to break that culture and there's no one simple solution is not one simple we across the board but i think recognising that underlying issues has been taken on board and that's correct so what excites that is the scottish approach which the home to is the middle london puts many people into the saying we must adopt welding the scottish approach was actually three fold first of all that was the public health approach that it was a culture a disease of violence and the how to address thought that had to be dealt with by education but organizations medics against violence telling young people you know that in a defensive weapon there's to see if we can use a knife equally we had to walk why young people carrying knives and i think it's

a scene in london why are they carrying it a small minority of doing so because of bad or evil intent some do because it's machismo but the overwhelming majority in london no i believe as you were in scotland carrying it because you were scared they were scared that somebody else was carrying a knife now you can threaten them with jail distance call. when the opposition wanted six months and they want to two years but these young people were skin to get caught but they were more scared than before they would get caught they were drawn into a gang or some other young passion to die so they were cutting and i for their own personal protection so as well as reassuring them and they was a defensive weapon we required to shoot them that other people had been carrying knives and how did you do that did in two days one was to do the education about not carrying a knife but other was to reassure them that actually people who did carry and i were going to get caught and the punishment would be severe and not so why i think sometimes people look at the scottish method that was applied and forget that there

was a. pretty big stack as well as a lot of that caught it dealing the underlying diseases there was an awful lot of stop and say it's not so much more problematic in london i realize because of the nature and scale of the city but there was an awful lot of stop and search because we had to be assured youngsters that those who carried a knife were going to get caught on a friday saturday night buses going into the city center in glasgow bergen scope by the police people were get thrust and sanch federer got polls had been developed i remember to find somebody was but we're used to really stations and bus stations so if you walked past the metal detectors people will get exalt and say it's because we had to use well as educate people don't use a knife it's not for protecting yourself you can't do that it was also about seeing those who do carry will get caught so those are an awful lot of high visibility policing to provide immediate reassurance so i think the home secretary and the media are on the right track in terms of the underlying long term approach but

you've also got to have some immediate action to reassure the public not just the public but to reassure these young stars who are scared and who are cutting naives not because they want to use them because the freight that one will be used the name and the foolish decision that they'll carry one themselves to some of those to say well you can't just some sport. school to. solution to london. police officer made the point he said that glasgow is a woman genius city which will be a surprise to the i think you've been deaf to the surprise of the people glasgow incidentally but there's obviously been a lot of controversy alone stop and search in london towns or racial profiling what would happen if you were giving advice to the mayor of new homes how do they address that well i think you know i would be having a what with the deputy commissioner steve whosis he did a mockable job having come up from london to glasgow sorted out in london in the be much the wiser and better for his experiences in scotland. i think it's fair to say

that yes you can't take the model that was in glasgow and immediately put it in think it will fit to london it's two different contexts but the general underlying direction of travel i think has been recognised so the say i think of that recognition there's an understanding you've got to what why you know why a maze being carried what is a solution you've got to have some political coverage you've got to have some time and by that but you've also got to have in some in force meant to be able to deliver it so as to say i think the home secretary what i would say to him i think he's on the right track in recognising the underlying causes i do think he's got to give public reassurance not just as a seed to wider communities are frightened but to youngsters who are going out tonight and who have maybe wanted to reassure them that they don't need to carry a knife because those who are going to count in one will get caught and that cites them back to the visible police presence the odd difficulties about stop and search in london it has to be used in a method that success but you have to provide reassurance to young people that

those who are carrying are going to get caught and that have to be consequences for those who are caught so you've got to get that balance right random stop and search isn't going to work except to say and providing some immediate reassurance but some time getting some understanding of providing reassurance not to see to those who are bad but to do is who are foolish that they don't need to because it was who are evil will get caught. coming up after the break our interview with kenny macaskill continues he warns london politicians that the public health approach to knife crime has to be balanced with tough measures to be successful.

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the interview with katie mccaskill where he cautions on expecting progress let me tell you but susan to so slightly will you have just to say that just for the year is going basically what's been happening in england though you've got screaming class headlines of good tragedy after tragedy the number of fatalities from knives and skull and i think reached a peak and that you. you've got stressed families coming to see you in the grief and demanding action or position politicians saying it'll jump this social walk approach and get stuck in prison sentences not as to how did you deal with that situation as a justice it well i think london as well as lending lessons from from the wider public health approach that thankfully is being dealt with now they should also look at the new deputy commissioner of the goat and steve because he was the chief

constable of strathclyde data largest single area and biggest police force and where that was the epicenter of knife crime and you're right it was a real crisis because it seemed certain as a just a second almost every week least once a month some young mind from a good bought going to a lovely young man these life in front of him was slain and that was up ruled an outrage and understandably so action had to be taken and i think the credit of steve hosts of the judiciary of the violent reduction you know was we held the line because to be able to implement what is no success we believe we also had to be able to react and as happens every crisis whether it's the terrorists or trustee of whatever you had to also give public reassurance not make high visibility policing it didn't mean that the people but the police were out there on the streets being seen showing to take action not just to the issue of the good citizens but also to detail who is scared young man who might otherwise have taken a ninth not to take that knife because the police were the and there would be

consequences if you did also increase the penalties for code or knife cutting me up what actually happened was that the sentences got longer for even though but we didn't go for mandatory sentencing it was a dutch auction i think at one stage the twenty's wanted two year mandatory sentencing plea for cutting and i flavor wanted six months and we knew that what would happen if we did that was silly fate and young stars who went by and we end up going to pay. and would come it was and having been a defense lawyer before i went into politics i knew that youngsters who went bad kids would go and young offenders institutes and become a new entity steal every car in the car park because of what they picked up so we held the line those who needed to be continued to give the judiciary discretion if somebody had to go to jail for a very long time because their by the grace of god had caught them cutting i before they done anything they in the got the power to do that and fool support those who were stupid had defeated death. by a sheriff but they were let off with

a community sentenced to do some hard labor in the community but not to go to jail so we got i think the balance right that's what the judiciary wanted it was what the police wanted lock up the ones you need to lock up don't lock up the ones you do want to meet worse and this came to a head the political battle in the parliament in the two thousand and eleven election was something very curious happened with your lists of student the the best news got to have the slain policy succeed something very different happened. well we were remarkably successful way you lay that said to others in the the majority government that was deliberate and twenty eleven i think it for the dead was begun to resonate by twenty eleven and it was beginning to decrease people were seeing we were walking away through it and i think you find that you know when you put forward a sensible policy good people stand with you and the policy was supported you know by police it was supported by the judiciary it was supported by youth and community

what curves it was supported across the board by those in the front line who knew this is sensible this is what and always remember that it was late when john carmack and or steve house were thirty uniforms on would speak much more than a politician the people who were making the attacks on the government were those politicians with short simplistic the mines lock them up do this we have simplistic solutions being suggested london g.p.s. tracking names. all these of sub the t.'s life has to go on so the method of you know we had an ally just what needed done we'd sure that it was working and we persevere and i think in london if you know the mere under did the home secretary can recognise that the underlying solutions need addressed equally balance it with the public reassurance when one can get through this but the got to address underlying reasons and equally the also got to be able to give reassurance to young people who are frightened at the moment that they will be protected the policemen

were there to make sure that the passion who might use a knife will be detected there's no case closed to scold them as some of the recent indications are i mean the reductions have been dramatic committed to sixty seventy percent and knife cutting in and fatalities but reached a little last couple of years so some of the figures starting to edge black up again what are you that are you. having cracked the case we're momi be into in line for some future tragedies i think it would be you know wise in scotland not to rest in a lot of great credit is owed to those individuals and all those organizations but i think you're right the train does tend to be creeping up again some of these things are cultural some of it comes because people are copycat and see things in the t.v. or protests are under the sea sometimes it just gets out of the psyche in the mind of youngsters so you've got to be ever vigilant stop and search as a tactic in the visible police presence i think it's something that has to be calibrated you've got to ramp up at times and you've got to decrease other times

and it may be in scotland that we've gone too far one we as in london have gone too far the other and it may be that we've got to increase it slightly just to provide that reassurance it's not about policemen having nothing else to do it's a very youngsters feeling that they can be a reassured that the was cutting names will be caught so they don't need to carry a knife and have it there are differences between north and so for the border police numbers will be in pain the very high level. england famously under the election of the no prime minister then home say police numbers were reduced substantially how big a factor is actual police numbers and be able to produce a visible two spaces i think is a huge factor i mean community policing is what it's all about comes back to the point we were discussing earlier to provide that reassurance to youngsters you have to give them the reassurance that those who are going to get out of the knife are going to get caught that's got to come about from a visible policing how do you do it as for the local officers to discuss

a they've got to see be there because if i'm not there then the number going to be able to target let alone stop and say it's those who are carrying the reason above all the stop and reduce going from a million stop and searches in london alone a year to a quarter of that figure was the very heavy pressure from the the communities they have that minority communities do felt they were being targeted unfairly so how do you how do you approach a question from a london point of view clearly separate communities deprive communities of a prevalence of knife violence these are also maybe the communities which have a disproportionate large number of b m b a minority communities so how do you manage to target these communities in order to make them safer without the consequence of people in these communities feeling we're being unfairly picked upon by the police i think the only solution is that the police have to sit down with the communities because i remember discussions and hard pressed housing schemes

korea was youngsters the i'm not in leafy suburbs in edinburgh who have been stopped and saps who youngsters would see they didn't mind because the police did it in a manner that was fair they told them what they were doing and why they were doing it they didn't like it not suggesting that they dead but they could see why it was being done to provide that safety and justice such in scotland because they were trying still are a variety of additional on the underlying message oh. it was the most surprising in list of that was presented to just a set to with a boat to do you thought although was the main thing a member. in greenock you know which is an a.t.m. blighted by cutting and they've cleaned but it was very a fateful because we thought then things that were remarkably what would what we youngsters because i have to say what i understood what we youngsters all will get in pop stars will get in through dollars and i so i don't quit if you're you know i know a prick lamers and i know a lot of football players always will get the most and actually all of the evidence showed that the youngsters that we deal need to target the ellipse in

a different world now know that not the only people that matter to them was when they were twelve or thirteen who had been the king of the walk or whatever and it was game by state he's a little guy going to the local guy and getting by who is who they had looked up to you know we might wonder why the lute talked them out to the elite top to you know rock stars and football is lived in apollo you know they asked to them and actually what was the fate of coming back and to see you know these were the ones he admired who said i've been there done it got the t. shirt you don't want to go the that was the only thing that was something super really hard as well as a member of the chocolate lanes of bodies at schools and community centers that were quite poignant and they did the best advocate i ever saw that was and said it was and we showed in schools because we knew that young maine as i was on the road think that immortal but i remember had i not been which was just the the mortician if i can predict that we with

a khattab are totally going to see that he was if you could see the mom because the reception with these young men they wanted to buy the mom they wanted to if they got stabbed and killed and they wanted to have a mom if they stop somebody and were going to jail they wanted to get the mom they thought they would always be immortal but they wanted to both the mom so the see targeting message targeting and realizing that hardcore youngsters it's not celebrities the live in a world where celebrities live. in a different universe but they do recognize the passion that the thing was that the major stock was the mine as we would call it in scotland the gangsta and if you can get those ones back and we still do the main thing those ones who have been there. been in prison come back and see you don't want to go there remarkably well so as i say look back i laugh at my naivety because i don't think celebrities will pick the men it's always to let people say that this is all connected with gang violence but

some of the statistics in scotland didn't support the idea that the majority of of my claim was coming from gang friends not a bit of they came as coming from a youngster just packing it as they would do to put their belt on or your favorite jacket on it just became something that you had to do you were going out some did so simply because to be scared others because they thought it looked cool but it was a see it became a random paddle which is why we managed to get drops of sixty seven percent in the areas of north go sixty percent i think it was in good nick ropes and a knife translational carving of cutting or cutting of offensive weapons because it was becoming standardized and routine and it's ending that people will always carry weapons because there's always in the world in which we live going to be people of evil evil intent who are going to you know use theys maliciously they have to be targeted by the police what we need to do is to stop those who don't want to carry in the first place and only do so because they're frightened for the chemical the

foremost goes just the desire to work what is no generally acknowledged as being an extraordinary success and violence and option in the reduction of the cardigan knaves nova seduction and fatalities if you got a message of hope for the for the mayor of london for the home such as the embark on this journey i think it's a journey and you're right and i was fortunate to be in a position and journey pretty well so i think hold on they are. build that coalition and you'll get through it there will be bumps but if you you know how the how of the analysis stick to the plan you can address it and mccaskill thank you very much rick. and so the lessons from scotland seem pretty clear and pretty decisive but if the whole new approach to knife the public health approach copied from north of the border have any impact then the huston reach communities such as this some combo well and side of london. the local hospital king's college is

a few minutes down the road from where i'm standing last year alone an accident i may have to see it treated more than five hundred young people forty percent of them young women for style balloons or other serious angelus that's the level of violence going on in this community well the public health approach author of the possibility of a substantial reduction the message from scotland is one has to be passive. and next we can now examine show i speak to free young men from communities such as this if i actually touching the lives around and i ask what of their past still lesson has any lessons for the wider community and so from myself and thais and everyone at the show it's good bye for now.

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can suppress certain types of results diced on what they think you should be seeing if they have this kind of power then democracy is an illusion the free and fair election doesn't exist for the more growth we give them the sooner we are all hand . you know world of big partisan new laws and conspiracy it's time to wake up to dig deeper to hit the stories that mainstream media refuses to tell more than ever we need to be smarter we need to stop slamming the door on the back and shouting past each other it's time for critical thinking it's time to fight for the middle for the truth the time is now we're watching closely watching the hawks. we could only be dull sort the old book.

sits for the fall to do soon. sobers you didn't sell something to move you know but it took you know. already measure to benefit worth of playing if they don't really . know you among the group was a somewhat. a movie before you except your then he says it calls for folks like me to call for the security just hold it where you go. oh. deary. well. enclosure will get a producer. in . to the pacific as this was the last stop at the push and i wish all forces.

even. to keep it as i live it he did feel confident. leave no. need. i d. . be yeah. i wish we had many things in the smiles alex this is an e-mail for everyone and why some people's minds so take our things all the power just for themselves and that is the mother. of the.

leaders of russia or north korea include the first of a summit after more than two hours of face to face talks with limit putin came. expressed a willingness to work towards the denuclearization of the korean peninsula. because the. german king also be directly to tell the us about his position and about the questions he has in connection with the situation on the korean peninsula. human rights groups as grotesque saudi arabia's beheading of thirty seven people said to be mostly from the shia minority one person's body was even stronger up in public following the largest mass execution for years. the us.