the authorities in london seem very reluctant to take advice or listen to anybody though which is very sad if not americans finally donal says stop and search randomly at school entrances and major events will help he also suggest on the spot community service of two hundred hours for any forest offense i care very much he tweets and e-mails now the home secretary speech in east london last week was his first on crime his commitment to move to a public health approach has received a cautious welcome across the political parties the public health approach which is something i announced towards the end of last year and that again was through listing to experience from both other parts of the u.k. from other countries as well who have also seen a a similar rising serious violence and i think we should learn from wherever we can and i think it is important to have such an approach which requires all government departments all agencies of government to treat serious violence as

a as the way we would treat for example a disease to prioritize it and to make it a statutory duty and underpinning the cross government effort that he mentioned has to be a public health approach to tackle the root causes of violence this is something we thought the government favored to encompass saying looking at you services. housing social services mental health and health as a whole we are acutely aware of the problem of knife crime in scotland because until recent years it was a terrible scourge but as others have alluded to as a result of a radical change of approach to the problem the incidence of knife crime in scotland has greatly reduced and crimes of handling an offensive weapon have decreased by sixty four percent between the years two thousand and seven two thousand and eight and two thousand and sixteen two thousand and seventeen and as if we all know and i this occurred because of a holistic approach which involved the creation of

a violent reaction unit initially in glasgow were known for the whole of scotland funded by the scots. government which treats violent crime as a public health problem the problem too many children with multiple at adverse childhood experiences are excluded from school which in turn can lead them to become involved in gangs and violence if we are to tackle this if epidemic of youth violence we need an approach whether you call it public health but we need an approach which is trauma informed i really care for children with a c e s the public health public education approach is right together with more police officers but wasn't a former metropolitan police commissioner correct this morning when he said that ultimately our young people need to know that they're better off not being in possession of a knife than having that knife and therefore isn't it also time for us to have clearer mandatory sentencing for those caught in possession of a knife without just cause we must all acknowledge that this is an issue that

transcends party lines particles can be divisive but if there was ever an issue to unite our efforts and inspire us to stand together then surely this is it. so there is now a growing consensus that this new approach modeled on the scottish experience is the way to move forward but will this make the difference that many hoped for alex turned to kenny macaskill scottish justice secretary from two thousand and seven to two thousand and fourteen who presided over the has started decline in one in scotland. kenny macaskill welcome to the exile issue. as the knife crime crisis has escalated in london and elsewhere than in england there's been a lot of calls to adopt the scottish system sometimes called the glasgow system you must over an element of pride amid this crisis that people are looking north for

a solution well i think so because it was a crisis but i think scotland can hold its head high and individuals deserve credit john connor and calm mccluskey these were people who were instrumental in the violence adoption you did at least mostly police officers and brought in do tend to medics against violence and i think the lessons we learned in scotland are being looted not sensibly i think though here in england with by the media no by the home secretary that has to be dealt with in terms of our longer term strategy but i think we also have to remember that we have to balance it with some immediate action to reassure those who are concerned about it you saw the home set much much build speech last week what was your initial reaction to what he had to say well i think i will commit i think it's we have to be fair the bit of london it's gone before for the you call it infection for the call of disease for the call a culture young people in particular as happened in scotland over a decade ago that were carrying knives they were doing so routinely and i remember

we used to see that it was almost becoming on an apollo as well as you know getting your jacket you'd get your night before you went out so you've got to break that culture and there's no one simple solution is not one simple we cross the board but i think recognising that underlying issue has been taken on board and that's correct so what excites that is the scottish approach which the home to is the middle london puts many people into the saying we must adopt welding the scottish approach is actually threefold first of all that was the public health approach that it was a culture of disease of violence and how to address that that had to be dealt with by edges. organizations medics against violence telling young people you know that i'm a fist defensive weapon there's to see if we can use a knife equally we had to walk why young people carrying knives and i think it's a seam in london why are they counting in a small minority of doing so because of badoer of evil intent some do because it's machismo but the overwhelming majority in london no i believe as you were in

scotland because you were scared they were scared that somebody else was cutting a knife now you can threaten them with jail in scotland the opposition wanted six months and you want to two years but these young people were caught but they were more scared than before they would get caught they would run into a gang or some other young person to die so they were cutting and i for their own personal protection so as well as reassuring them and they was a defensive weapon which required to shoes and other people carrying knives and how did you do that they did two days one was to do the education about not carrying a knife but other was to reassure them that actually people who did carry and i would going to get caught in the punishment would be severe and not why i think sometimes people look at the scottish method that was applied and forget that there was a. pretty big stack as well as a lot of that caught it dealing the underlying diseases there was an awful lot of stop and say it's not so much more problematic in london i realize because of the nature and scale of the city but there was an awful lot of stop and search because

we had to be assured youngsters that those who carried a knife were going to get caught and afraid the south of the night buses going into the city center in glasgow bergen scope by the police people were getting frist and sandwich fed or god polls had been developed i remember to find somebody was but we're used to really stations and bus stations so if you walked past the metal detectors people would get it stopped and say it's because we had to use well as educate people don't use a knife it's not for protecting yourself you can't do that it was also about seeing those who do carry will get caught so there was an awful lot of high visibility policing to provide. immediate reassurance so i think the home secretary and the media are on the right track in terms of the underlying long term approach but you've also got to have some immediate action to reassure the public not just the public but to reassure these young stars who are scared and who are cutting naives not because they want to use them because the frightened one will be used in them and they make the foolish decision that they'll carry one themselves some of those

who say well you can't just transport. a scottish solution into london. police officer made the point he said that glasgow is a woman genius city which will be a surprise to the i think you've been deaf to the surprise of the people glasgow incidentally but there's obviously been a lot of controversy alone stop and search in london towns a racial profiling. if you're giving advice to the mayor of new homes how do they address the well i think you know i would be having a what with the deputy commissioner steve whosis he did have a mochel job having come up from london to glasgow started out in london in the be much the wiser and better for his experiences in scotland i think it's fair to say that yes you can't take the model that was in glasgow and immediately putin think it will fit to london it's two different contexts but the general underlying direction of travel i think has been recognised so the say i think of that

recognition there's an understanding you've got to what k y n y m a's being carried what is a solution you've got to have some political courage you've got to have some pain and by that but you've also got to have in some enforcement to be able to deliver it so as to say i think the home secretary what i would say to him i think he's on the right track in recognising the underlying causes i do think he's got to give public reassurance not just as a seed to wider communities are frightened but to youngsters who are going out tonight and who have maybe wanted to reassure them that they don't need to carry a knife because those who are going to cut in one will get caught and that's nice and by visible plea. presents the odd difficulties of stop and search in london it has to be used in a method that success but you have to provide reassurance to young people that those who are cutting out going to get caught and that have to be consequences for those who are caught so you've got to get that balance right random stop and search isn't going to work to see it providing some immediate reassurance but some time

getting some understanding of providing reassurance not to see to those who abide but to do is who are foolish that they don't need to because of those who are evil will get caught. coming up after the break our interview with kenny macaskill continues he warns london politicians that the public health the push to knife crime has to be balanced with tough measures to be successful. facebook and google started with a great idea and great ideals unfortunately there was also a very dark side. they are constructing a profile of you and that profile is real it's detailed and it never goes away turns out that google is manipulating your opinions from the very first character

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ever operate in this country and they're dead to me they're worse off than the people who destroyed the world trade centers under the scroll. welcome back across the political parties with substantial support from community activists there is a move to learn lessons from scotland to tackle knife crime in london let us return to the interview with katie mccaskill where he cautions on expecting me to progress let me tell you but susan to certainly well you have just to say that just in a year you've got basically what's been happening in england though you've got screaming place headlines you've got tragedy after tragedy the number of fatalities from knives and skull and i think reached

a peak you you've got to last families coming to see you and the grief and demanding action you've got opposition politicians saying it'll get this social. approach and get stuck in prison sentences not as to how did you deal with that situation as a justice it well i think london as well as lending lessons from from the wider public health approach that thankfully is being dealt with now they should also look at the new deputy commissioner of the goat and steve hayes because he was the chief constable of strathclyde data largest single area and biggest police force and where that was the epicenter of knife crime and you're right it was a real crisis because it seemed certain as a just a second almost every week least once a month some young mind from a good bot going to a lovely young man these life in front of him was slain and that was up ruled an outrage and understandably so action had to be taken and i think the credit to steve howe use of the judiciary of the violent reduction you know was we held the

line because to be able to implement what is no successful bellew we also had to be able to react and as homs every crisis whether it's a terrorist atrocity whatever you had to also give public reassurance not make high visibility policing it didn't mean that the people but the police were out there on the streets being seen showing to take action not just to reassure the good citizens but also to detail who was scared young man who might otherwise have taken a ninth note to take that knife because the police were the and there would be consequences if he did also increase the penalties for code or knife cutting me up what actually happened was that the sentences got longer for even though we didn't go for mandatory sentencing it was a dutch auction i think at one stage the twenty's wanted two year mandatory sentencing plea for cutting and i flavor wanted six months and we knew that what would happen if we did that was a silly fate to youngsters who went by and we'd end up going to prison and would

come out watts and having been a defense lawyer before i went into politics i knew that youngsters who went bad kids would go and young offenders institutes and become a new entity every card macaco. because of what they picked up so we held the line those who needed to be continued to give the judiciary discretion if somebody had to go to jail for a very long time because they had by the grace of god had caught them cutting i before they done anything they in the got the power to do that and fool support those who were stupid had defeated death. by a sheriff but they were let off with a community sentenced to do some hard labor in the community but not to go to jail so we got i think the balance right that's what the judiciary wanted it was what the police wanted lock up the ones you need to lock up don't lock up the ones you do want to meet worse and this came to a head the political battle in the in the parliament in the two thousand and eleven election was something for the curious happened where your lists of student the the

best news got to have this lame policy succeed something very different happened in the lives of well we were remarkably successful way you said to others in the the majority government that was deliberate and twenty eleven i think it for that that was begun to resonate by twenty eleven it was beginning to decrease people were seeing we were walking away through it and i think you find that you know when you put forward a sensible policy good people stand with you and the policy was supported you know by police it was supported by the judiciary it was supported by youth and community what curves it was supported across the board by those in the front line who knew this is sensible this is what worked and always remember that it was late when john carmack and our steve house were thirty uniforms on would speak not much of much more than a politician the people who were making the attacks on the government or those politicians with short term simplistic the mines lock them up do this we have simplistic solutions being suggested london g.p.s.

tracking knaves all these of sub the t's life has to go on so the method of you know we had an allies to what needed done we'd shorten that it was walking and we pass a field and i think in london. you know the mere underbid the home secretary can recognize that the underlying solutions need addressed equally balance it with the public reassurance when one can get through this but the got to address underlying reasons and equally the also got to be able to give reassurance to young people who are frightened at the moment that they will be protected the policeman were there to make sure that the passion who might use a knife will be detected there's no doubt the case closed the scope them is some of the recent indications of when the reductions have been dramatic communion that's the sixty seventy percent and knife cutting in and fatalities but reached little last couple of years sub some of the figures starting to edge back up again what are you. having cracked a case we're momi be into in line for some future tragedies i think it would be you

know wise in scotland not to rest on our laurels great credit is owed to those individuals and all those organizations but i think you're right the train does tend to be creeping up again some of these things are cultural some of it comes because people are copycat and see things in the t.v. or potential under the sea sometimes it just gets out of the psyche in the mind of youngsters so you've got to be ever vigilant stop and search as a tactic in the visible police presence i think it's something that has to be calibrated you've got to ramp up at times and you've got to decrease other times and it may be in scotland that we've gone too far one we as in london have gone too far the other and it may be that we've got to increase it slightly just to provide that reassurance it's not about policemen having nothing else to do it's about youngsters feeling that they can be reassured that there was cutting names will be caught so they don't need to carry a knife and have it there are differences between north and so for the border misquoting police numbers have been very high levels in the england famously and

the election of the no prime minister then home say the police numbers were reduced substantially how big a factor is actual police numbers and be able to be. the juice of visible police presence i think is a huge factor i mean community policing is what it's all about comes back to the point we were discussing earlier to provide that reassurance to youngsters you have to give them the reassurance that those who are going to galatea knife are going to get caught that's got to come about from a visible policing how you do it as for the local officers to describe a they've got to see be there because if i'm not there then the number going to be able to target let alone stop and say it's those who are carrying the reason above all the stop and reduce going from a million stop and searches in london alone a year to quarter of that figure was the very heavy pressure from the the communities they have that minority communities too felt they were being targeted unfairly so how do you how do you approach a question from

a london point of view we have clearly said communities deprived communities of a prevalence of knife violence these are also maybe the communities which have a disproportionate large number of b.m. be a minority communities so how do you manage to target these communities in order to make them safer with the consequence of people in these communities feeling we are being unfairly picked upon by the police i think the only solution is that the police have to sit down with the communities because i remember discussions and hard pressed housing schemes where it was youngsters the i'm not in leafy suburbs in edinburgh who have been stopped and saps who youngsters would see they didn't mind because the police did it in a manner that was fair they told them what they were doing and why they were doing it they didn't like it not suggesting that the dead but they could see why it was being done to provide that safety and justice in scotland because they were trying and still are a variety of additional on the underlying message pose the most surprising in the

short of that was presented to just a set to with a boat to do x. you thought although it was the main thing a member. in greenock you know which is an area blighted by the. cutting and they've cleaned but it was very a fateful because we thought and did things that were remarkably what would what we youngsters because up to see what and if they thought we youngsters or we'll get in popstars we'll get in through dollars and i so i don't quit if you're you know i know a prickly amount that i know a lot football players always will get the most and actually all of the evidence showed that the youngsters that we deal need to target the illit in a different world none of that not the only people that matter to them was when they were twelve or thirteen who had been the king of the walk or whatever and it was getting a little guy going to the local gang getting by those who they had looked up to you know we might wonder why the loo talked them back to the elite top to you know rock stars and football is left in apollo universe to them and actually what was

offenders coming back and to seeing you know these were the ones he admired who said i've been there done it got the t. shirt you don't want to go there that was the only thing that was something that really hard as well as a member of the chocolate lanes of bodies at schools and community centers that were quite poignant and they did the best advocate i ever saw that was and cinemas and we showed in schools because we knew that young man as i was on the road things that are mortal. but i remember had i not been which was just the the mortician if i can pick it out we with a khattab are totally going to see that he was if you could see the moment because the reception of these young men who wanted to buy the mom they wanted to. stop and killed and they wanted to have a mum if they stop somebody and were going to jail they wanted to put the mom they thought they would always be a mortal but what he did the mom so the say targeting message targeting and realizing that the hardcore youngsters it's not celebrities the live in

a world where celebrities live in a different universe but they do recognize the passion that the thing was that the major star was the hard line as we would call it in scotland they gangsta and if you can get those ones by can we still do not peer mentoring those ones who have been there. been in prison come back and see you don't want to go there about what's remarkably well so is this a look back and i laugh at my naivety because i don't think celebrities will pick the men it's always to tell you what people say that this is all connected with gang violence but some of the statistics in scotland didn't support the idea that the majority of of my plane was coming from going friends. came as coming from youngsters just packing it as they would do their belt on or your favorite jacket on it just became something that you had to do you were going out some did so simply because they were scared others because they thought it looked cool but it was a see it became a random paddle which is why we managed to get drops of sixty seven percent in the

areas of north was go sixty percent i think it was in good nick ropes and knife translational cutting of cutting or cutting of offensive weapons because it was becoming standardized and routine and it's ending that people will always carry weapons because there's always in the world in which we live going to be people of evil evil intent who are going to you know used base maliciously they have to be targeted by the police what we need to do is to stop those who don't want to carry in the first place and only do so because they're frightened for the kind of a cast as a form of sco justice who does a little of what is know generally as being an extraordinary success and violence and option in the in the cardigan knaves nova seduction and third time with his message of hope for the for the mayor of london for the home such as the embark on this journey i think it's a journey that you're right and i was fortunate to be in

a position in journey pretty well so i think whole journey of. build that coalition and you'll get there will be bumps but if you you know how the how of the analysis stick to the plan you can address it and mccaskill thank you very much rick. and so the lessons from scotland seem pretty clear and pretty decisive but if the home set his new approach to knife the public health approach copied from north of the border of any impact then the hostile reach communities such as this some combo well and so for london the local hospital king's college is a few minutes down the road from where i'm standing last year alone an accident i may have to see it treated more than five hundred young people forty percent of them young women for style balloons or other serious angelus that's the level of violence going on in this community well the public health approach author of the possibility of

a substantial reduction the message from scotland is it has to be passed severe birth and next we can now examine show i speak to free young men from communities such as this if i actually turn their lives around and ask what of their past still lesson has any lessons for the wider community and so from myself and thais and everyone at the show is goodbye for now. we can only be done for to look. for the party to soothe. i'll sell

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