hello and welcome to worlds apart from twenty two months five hundred search warrants well over twenty five million dollars and their worst relationship to nuclear power in decades that's what it used to produce a report confirming that the american president after all is not awaiting russian top but it didn't seem that the russians did not try to pull the strings if the deed was nearing if not the legal and moral right to do so well to discuss that i'm now joined by michael brown and professor emeritus of international affairs at the

university of pittsburgh professor britton it's good to talk to you thank you very much for your time those a pleasure to be with well it's been almost a week since the miller report was made public so i'm sure you've had the pleasure of plowing through these truly historic document is there anything in it that surprised you know we've been pretty. directions on this tomatoes investigation. was taking what everyone was looking forward to in terms of it he was his conclusions in dimension. i think we can examine the three perspectives one a legal perspective you know did the president commit any crimes or offenses the congress. might interpret as impeachable true there's

a political impact looking forward to next year's presidential election and third is what effect in mind on relations between washington and moscow well i would actually stick to the third one and offer one more line of inquiry reaches. what exactly russians didio did not do because while the democrats and the republicans are still arguing over the legal definition of obstruction they are absolutely unanimous that the russian interference did occur and they were of the airport in fact deeds that the russian government interference in the two thousand and sixteen election in a quote sweeping and systematic fashion is that the impression that you drew from it sweeping and systematic no or further i must sort of disagree was with the judgment the conclusion reached by. mr amala if one sort or

looks at the evidence as presented first of all very little if anything to what's already been known and pub and published. second there is almost no concrete evidence to suggest that it was the russian government itself much was the sort of from a. design that was implementing a comprehensive strategy designed to who determine the outcome of the presidential election that evidences some from. most of it is some is or based upon the assumption that any russian. citizen of consequence awol some ohio or as close to mr putin bugged out as not substantiated but was presented in the report. well i would also take issue with

sweeping we know that the miller probe indicted thirteen russian nationals on conspiracy charges that's in relation to social media campaign and twelve on hacking and dumping charges can twenty five people realistically even try to sweep the election in a country of three hundred twenty seven million can be really do it in the quote systematic way though of course if we're looking at the in practical terms in the hypothetical way and setting aside for a moment the question as to whether there was a winning strategy no. you know american politics. and intensity and the notion that somebody playing games at the margins of the election could dictate or even influence the outcome is frankly frankly absurd. food to compare

russia with you know it states the united states has been fall or effect in influencing of the domestic politics of other countries. than russia. i mean where during the day and how the over the way. venezuela and syria of doing that in russia reach our whole weekend discussed but before we go there you sound a little bit skeptical about the scale of russian interference but i personally it's important to point you point out that the crime and denies any connection to both ways of. the operations that miller pointed out the social media campaign and the hacking but i personally find the hacking and the dumping story believe it will because this is something that intelligence services around the world due to each other they find vulnerabilities and they exploited them what i don't understand is why would the americans expect to. be treated with the kid gloves particularly by

the russians because americans believe we will leave there were exceptional. we pru all go to. nobody knows how. to we're in a position and i have some kind of obligation and fact to set rules on to applause. from our own perspective and others tendency which is really rules are just in you know in a country sort of history and self definition and center has become much more pronounced and so far as international affairs as concerned. with the end of the cold war and most especially the last few years as you know under mr mr trump you know in terms of of hacking or so veiled as electronic surveillance don't forget we now know that they enter as a. you know applying electronic surveillance to national lead is.

all around the world including the chancellor merkel in germany it was made evident substantiated in the wiki leaks release is five five years ago and i assume eve the american intel had stumbled upon evidence of putin's wrongdoing they would not hesitate to release it would they no doubt would simply be a practical calculation of whether it was seen to be the advantage of you know of washington i should say one of the point all the hacking. personal knowledge of the was of causes is limited but they do have some indirect knowledge in fact this has been made public and there are very technically conversant people experts who have worked in the national security. agency including

a former technical director of the national security or security agency who are version that the forensic evidence makes it clear that there was no hacking that instead someone within their agency downloaded those files and pass pass them on and that has never been refuted and this is also that we kill leaks also alleges now the miller report specifically states that in the view of the investigators russia perceived it would benefit from a trump presidency and that's why it worked to secure that outcome do you agree with that assessment that. russia would be counting on trump more than it would be hoping to discount mrs clinton were let's let's be down to earth of you have two people running for the presidency and. one mrs clinton

has called mr putin the new hitler they other is making considered dettori noises of his ability to cooperate or at least to engage with with mr putin for whatever reason it wasn't based in on mr trump sort of serious systematic assessment but in any case that's what he would say so if that's the choice. that it's evident the do whatever profer and any reasonable rational person would have for folks what you do about it or don't do and what effect you might lose a surfer questions well i think there's also a very specific russian context here because for the russians the clintons have come to you a pizza mob actually interference i mean it's not a secret that bill clinton. worked very hard to get boris yeltsin elected as

russian president in ninety nine to six sending his aides to moscow trashing the i'm asked for a ten billion dollar loan hillary clinton also made her preferences known they had of the two thousand and twelve elections when you consider all that clinton's history with russia didn't they legitimized luxury all interference long ago by the only example where yes you said a president. is something more american political elite tends to ignore and goes back to the notion of which is very deeply rooted and ever can psyche you noticed being exceptional and having the true groove things and judge of those. not here to understand they have to program fully to american psyche and it becomes

more a matter of psychology an ounce of all of. the politics but it is a fact that a lot of the north united states behave sets precedents for other country and legitimate was a is not a motion the problem of it and the thinking of let's call it the political class in a row in washington that is an unfortunate reality of the situation but it's not only about the american public opinion it's also about. what people in other parts of the world think because i mean it is the paradox of the american power that the american president has a much broader foreign policy discretion to a fact lives. of people in other countries than in his own country mrs clinton if elected she would her actions would have a much. greater bearing on my life for people in syria than dan merrick ends and i

just wonder what is the you know the appropriate the legitimate we all you know voicing the concern about these kind of literature because she does have a very very long and i would say very destructive track record that it's very rare for a foreign policy issue war determine a national presidential election it's almost always domestic issues of one kind or another. shape the debate and influence how people vote second there tends to be a ted there is a tendency. to give the president free. to do what he wishes to do internationally the domestically some of this is legal constitutional some of it is institutional. some of it has to do with the fact simply that there

is more consensus generally speaking on foreign policy matters then there is own on domestic matters you know that's certainly true today and most specifically in regard true true russia in a wish this image of russia as a hostile power is pervasive in the states again for a variety of are of a sort of complex reasons well professor brown and we have to take a short break now but we will be back in just a few moments statement. he needs a political impulse needs to come. from. the.

ideally dillman before it got into pasta haas been. giving political guidance to the process and so basically what i'm waiting for he's an author political impulse ideally stemming from the moment you. are. welcome back to will's apartment michael brown and professor emeritus of international affairs at the university of pittsburgh professor brennan just before the break we were talking about how. i think there were legitimate upper hand ssion about the kind of flip that secretary clinton could have presented to the world not to that americans but to the world especially dealing with her policy record in libya and syria but i think we may never know the full details of how those

decisions were made because the clinton camp intentionally destroyed a lot of electronic records without ever facing the abstraction of justice charges do you think she has anything to worry about now that mr trump has been cleared. no no she does. history. at this point. you know we should bear in mind the it's true but the conclusion of the motor report was that there'd been no collusion between mr trump for and his immediate associates on the russian government you know most of those meetings in fact to do with trump's real estate dealings and of a business activity. involving involving russia. well

he's been cleared of blood in effect concluded that there probably was instructed obstruction of justice there was a good deal of evidence the other curb but plain for pressing them a little he lay on the grounds that you can indict a sitting american president no we should say that's not constitutional it is not in the law or it is simply customary practice all policy or or or understanding that means it's up to the congress whether it wants to take that evidence and make it the basis for impeachment that's not going to occur of oh there's no appetite for the tenseness republicans control the senate. it's a closed question what i don't understand is that how you kill you how you can

accuse somebody of obstructing justice when there is no underlying crime because it's very clear from the miller reported that chomped and people around him received what was going on be the probe as a great injustice to him and in retrospect i wonder you should actually be credited for exercising restraint rather than trying to obstruct what seems to be a political injustice i mean there is no underlying crime how can he abstract or you can you can obstruct the process the legal process whatever its outcome. in other words the obstruction of justice bill interfering with an investigation is a crime. and so though could be legal but if if mr trump or an ordinary citizen. would be a legitimate legal basis for pursuing him.

prosecuting him the seeking in and committed for obstruction of justice now that issue has been raised by some of the republicans but i believe from what i understand that's really a specious issue and rudy doesn't have any legal standing but if the concern is really so much with the with the process we know from n.b.c. reports that the clinton camp did everything they accuse trump all they relied on the for in their it's you against compromising information on him they handed out compromising in fraudulent material to the media and to the intelligence agencies they destroyed records i mean they destroyed their phones and their e-mail records isn't dr worth looking into for the sake of democracy and the equal equal treatment before a lawyer if nothing else. but that's politics that's not law or potential is sort of criminality in other words the points the molar may

under the heading of obstruction of justice refer to his investigation and other. in other words a sump law it's simply a question of the games you play or the dubious actions you take true to influence. the political process and that's was very often as was the case with richard nixon forty five years ago it's what happens once the legal process has begun and it often leads to acts of criminality and sends people to. rather than the original action of initiated the process in the first place the u.s. attorney general william barr already pledged to investigate the the origins of the f.b.i. counterintelligence investigation into russia. there is

a suspicion that they may be another collusion the collusion between the democrats and the intelligence services if proven how big of a deal it's going to be for the american public it's a big deal but if there were any truth to it but this is a propaganda campaign mr ball i don't think is just. an agent of mr trump he was just a point to a few months ago after a long interviews with mr trump and on a fact he. so well with this process in a quite disgraceful fashion as a spokesman for for the white house he has no credibility in the minds of anyone but republican partisan but i suppose it's well it's not going to be him personally looking into that if he were to appoint somebody like let's say robert miller again to investigate another killer collusion do you think that would have more credence

in your eyes no i think at the end of the day. highly doubtful that he'll do. just making political points you know the american electoral campaign has already begun we're going to have to suffer through it for the next eighteen months and so everything becomes khaled you know including foreign policy but professor brennan help me understand here because for the last two years do democrats have been making political points about the miller investigation why is it not ok to lead the republicans do the same and settle die suspicions through the. investigative process because there are real issues about the the provenance of the still dos here and whether or not it was used to get fives or warrants etc why those issues are not serious enough to be looked into given that the last two years respond into

investigating as trump likes to say and nothing burger or. nothing burger. actually trumps francis or mcdonald's cheeseburgers but we consume. all day long but seriously it's not the democrats who appointed mr it was it was the federal government under republican president with a republican attorney general with a career office in the justice department many prosecutors who have a track record of benefiting the democratic and contributing to the democratic campaign i mean i think the republicans have also made a point that they would be have certain parts leanings no that's unfortunate i don't believe correct mr moeller him so as or always classified him so as not

just a republican but a conservative republican mr khomeini has always. called him so a conservative republican mr all staying as no political allegiance whatsoever of which we know so if these people have such stellar reputations why not asking them to look into issues that a significant part of them elec american electorate is concerned about i mean i know many people on the republican side and they do believe that it was a political hit job to appoint these pro and they do have issues with hillary clinton and her destruction of records. the use of the steel dos here and how it was procured how it was used by the intelligence services why is that not enough to look into by somebody who you all can trust well this was looked into by by the

f.b.i. by the by they call me a comber is a loyal republican he's not a is not a democrat. and so this was looked and true and then the let's bear in mind we come to this dubious field those are it's for the it's a very intricate background. and that there were people who were in both the russian saw eye and the americans who were hustling who were trying to sort of promote them so and while offering material to both sides to the republicans on that and the democrats. and. with regard to the steel goes. this war was involved. six in britain as much who's a did anyone in washington and this aspect of the

affair like has really not gotten much attention just says the script ball affair is only a concoction of m i five and six with the systems well i think many russians would they grieve you on the letter character is they should now we have only a few minutes left let me ask you one thing that many here in moscow are hoping for there is a hope that the miller probe and the clearing of trump will allow him to be more flexible in his relations with russia and allow him to work with moscow on issues of global importance do you think that's likely no i think that's exaggerated. i don't see any change of any consequence whatsoever in terms of washington's thinking of attitudes towards or policies and rigo

true true russia let's bear in mind too saying there's a very strong consensus throughout the american political establishment rusher is a dangerous hostile power which is shared by republicans and democrats on the media. and second look at mr trump's actions it's knowledge that he simply been hesitant it engaging with the mr putin he has confronted rush for across the board whether it has to do with nato expansion military exercises on the ploy months and. well there it has to do with the breaking of all control agreements whether it has to do was syria another word for mr or mr trump as been have been has been. not at all considered dori. gold true russia. and i think that's one of the real harms

of the last two years that it pathologist any efforts to improve the relations between our countries despite them being nuclear powers anyway and we have to leave it there we are out of time but i really appreciate you being with us today and sharing your perspective thank you very much for that well you're very welcome much appreciated the opportunity i encourage our viewers to keep this conversation going in our social media pages and hope to see you again same place same time here on worlds apart.

for good only if you don't. sit. so president. among the group. except he says. that the security. oh. i'm. going to be doing.

this. so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have it's crazy confrontation let it be an arms race. hearing dramatic development only personally i'm going to resist i don't see how that strategy will be successful very critical time to sit down and talk. the international memorial awards twenty nine now open for entry to. the media professionals are eligible whether you are a freelance journalist work for alternative media or part of

a global news conference to participate in published works and video to. go toward dot com and enter now. in the stories that shape the week the first of a summit between. north korea's kim jong. il relationship with the focus also on breaking the nuclear deadlock on the korean peninsula. russian national jailed in the u.s. for failing to register as a foreign agent but her lawyer insists she's a victim of washington's current political climate. yes the us were illegal. in and of themselves but you got caught up in this and see russia as the star. and saudi arabia comes under fire from the un and human rights groups from mass execution with concerns to.