we're away will be screenings of your favorite episodes this season coming up in this show canadian psychologist professor jordan peterson elevated by liberal war supporting media like the new york times and guardian comes to going underground and the first muslim woman does it in parliament british peer to denote a british media political class complicit in deadly islamophobia all this of all coming of a days going underground the first the rise of identity politics as well as being accused of masking the horrors of neo liberal stereotype of disguising class conflict as the driving force of the march of history but on next guest sees not only identity is the enemy to fulfilling lives but marxism and socialism joining me now from toronto canada is clinical psychologist on the international bestselling author of twelve rules for life an antidote to chaos professor jordan peterson jordan welcome to going underground let's just begin with what do you think it says about free speech in britain that cambridge university made an announcement this week saying they weren't going to invite you to speak i think it says more about the nature of the universities in general than about free speech in general i mean

i don't feel that my decision been taishan has compromised my free speech ability because i have so many platforms on which i can discuss my ideas but i think that it was handled in an unbelievably unprofessional shoddy and cowardly way i mean i was never even notified formally that this invitation occurred i found out about it through the grapevine and i have no we still have no real explanation for why it happened. you know only able to surmise the reasons i think that our guy was in cambridge in november and i did a very popular talk there and there was lots of student interest and interest out the faculty of divinity as well and i was really looking forward to working with the experts there on biblical issues and i thought it would have been a very good collaboration. for everyone given the popularity of the biblical

lecture series i did a year ago and i think it's i think it's sad and i think it's sad and shoddy but i also think it's deeply reflective of how powerful logical the universities have become to be clear you didn't tell them you didn't want demonstrators outside the lecture hall as when you were speaking this is clearly a sign of deliberate. no platforming and censorship. well i presume so as i said i haven't had any official notification let's just get to some of the work i mean how key would you say in your work has been your opposition to socialism marxism and of course the best selling book as well given at the moment the word socialism of course has a bit of a renaissance here with jeremy corbin and in the united states with but. you know i'm particularly concerned with the more radical end of the left distribution or the left part of the political distribution as well as the identity politics people

on the right. you know there are i live in canada it's a moderately socialist country i think that there's been the in the introduction of certain forms of legislation that have been formulated by the same order left that i think have been beneficial to people. i think the problem is that as far as i'm concerned it's very difficult seems to be very difficult for people on the left to draw a line between what's acceptable and what's not acceptable because obviously the left can go too far and i would say all the emphasis is at the moment on diversity inclusive of the inequity is a sign that the left has gone far too far. i don't think that the radical and of the democratic party in the us is going to be very successful in two thousand and twenty i'm not think the democrats themselves know that in fact i'm fully aware of

the fact that they know that their party is actually moderated to a much greater degree than people are currently aware. you know i can i just say i'm going you just said yes diversity and equality has gone too far i mean obviously you're speaking to a country which. committed genocide against native americans justin trudeau your leader is really trying to change the politics of venezuela as part of a major nation attempts to overthrow governments around the world you think that's a moderate socialist do i think that justin trudeau in particular i don't have the country of amount of regard for for for justin trudeau. well i was thinking of policies like universal pension and standard working hours and i think the universal health care system in canada has worked reasonably well it has its problems but i lived in the us in the health care system there certainly has its problems. it's the radicalization of the left that concerns me and the polarization

that's a consequence of that and mostly it's the emphasis on equity or equality of outcome because i think that any attempt to pursue equality of outcome is doomed to a totalitarian tilt because it's technically impossible to equalize outcomes across all possible identity groups and then there's the problem of identity politics in general which i think is a real catastrophe where each person is viewed in the light of their sexuality or their race or their ethnicity instead of being treated first and foremost as an individual which i think is the great contribution of the west to let's call it interpersonal discourse and relationship and and social structure if i get to be a deviation from that a catastrophe if i get to individuals of the second do you find it amusing or surprising that people that maybe you describe as the hard left often have sympathy

for your views on identity as a pretty poor tool of understanding history. and. who believe obviously that glass is one of the well greatest tools. well that is that is a strange thing i mean it and it's a sign of actually part of the powerful logical transformation of the left i would say. you know the moderate or moderate socialist types who are concerned fundamentally about economic inequality in about economic class divisions and you know inequality i would say is a problem and it's a very difficult problem to deal with but to transform that into race and ethnicity based identity politics is definitely a regressive move and it's surprising to me to some degree that that's that new story let's say which seems to be a combination of post-modern thinking and marxist thinking has actually captured the left to the degree that house and you can see the consequences of that because

because of its internal contradictions because because of the fact that people have multiple group identities the left keeps devouring its own you know i kind of figured out when i was i wrote a forward for xander solution it's in school or capella go the fiftieth anniversary version and i figured out well i was writing that that you know because people have multiple group identities it's possible to identify every single person as no press or along some dimension of their group identities their multiple group identities and then to justify their persecution and it's the fatal flaw of this sort of identity politics and it's well it's a catastrophe for the left and well it's a catastrophe generally because it's polarizing everyone what they want if it's for the reasonable left why focus on the left eating itself though i mean what you just said there i don't know whether you would assume that michele fuko is opposed to modernise fuko it would have said just exactly what you did the complexities of power and the importance of power in fact he said we was cease to describe the

effects of power in negative terms do judo. see that your contribution to knowledge is actually benefiting the resurgence of the marxist left or the left of that reads marx in its original rather than through the eyes of the sixties. left campuses in the united states in well i don't see how my work could be contributing to that i mean fuko fuko is big problem like the many of the postmodernists was that he believed that human relations could best be described in terms of power and i think that's absolute nonsense i think that human relationships are best described in terms of competence and cooperation and i think almost all the biological evidence supports that out as well as the reliable political and economic evidence been people don't base their relationships on power unless they

live in tyrannical structures they base their relationships on mutual product of work towards shared ends and so you know i think fuko was. a member of dreadful cause major works and he's an interesting writer but i think as a thinker he's to call him second rate is a is a tremendous compliment it's very you have to be very very skeptical of people who reduce the causes of all complex phenomena to a single. factor like sex freud did that to some degree or economics like marx or power like fuko you can tell a very compelling story about how that's the case but the world is far more complicated than that and it's a travesty to reduce the complexity of our social arrangements to power and i certainly don't see that my work as has has contributed to it to a re valuation say of the original marxist stance on class i do have some sympathy

for the inequality argument but i don't think there's any evidence that socialist structures let alone communist structures reduce inequality all the evidence that i'm aware of points to the opposite that inequality is actually less for example in europe that it is in the rest of the world even though there's still high levels of inequality you know presumably that the united states imprisons more people but capita than stalin or mao and that the country or to be from catheters aborted wars that have killed wounded or displaced tens of millions of people just in the. ten years or so. you don't believe power relations a useful because to tell the terry and so to the ones different to the ones you are currently living in in north america no i don't i don't believe that. analyzing human relationships purely through the lens of power is sufficient to god i didn't say to a laxity i don't think you out you didn't use it really well we are well. i

don't agree with. you have said that directly but well mark certainly concentrated on on economic class divisions as the fundamental driving force of history and inequality and so i mean look every political and economic system every complex system that human beings have ever formulated has its pathological element . it's inevitable there's always a dark side to things that the question is how dark and my sense is that the totalitarians systems that emerged in the twentieth century both on the left and on the right were far darker than their democratic alternatives despite the fact that their democratic alternatives also had their own problems you know what winston churchill was right when he said of democracy that it's the worst form of government except for all the others and and i'm a pessimist in

a realist in matters such as that i know that all of our social systems are destined to remain deeply flawed the question is whether they spiral completely out of control and they certainly did under mao and stalin and hitler and if you were a child say and they were. a child in the ground. in this studio which the austerity has to any way to austerity in this country where is the individual as i'm not even a child to a teenager or an adult where is the ability to choose with the means to have choice well the economic means constrained to some degree but they certainly don't constrain absolutely i mean there's always the possibility for social mobility of of but not when the day of the one is more than other do well that well definitely not look i mean i'm not foolish enough to presume that the adoption of individual responsibility and the striving that goes along with that is necessarily going to

produce a positive outcome my contention is that the best bet that you have in this fail of catastrophe in tears is to take responsibility for your own life and to speak truthfully and to act courageously and and the difference between that in the standard let's say individualists philosophy is that the individual must types tend to concentrate on rights and i don't concentrate on rights i concentrate on response. ability and i believe that even under constrained economic conditions. that your best bet the best chance that you have in life to to garner a certain amount of meaning and gauge want is to speak the truth and to engage with the world courageously and that's not an economic argument it's independent of economics it doesn't matter if you're rich or you're poor under those conditions it

may matter with regards to your socio economic outcome but i'm and look part of the reason that people find my work meaningful is because i am directly talking about the fact that people find the meaning that sustains themselves in their lives through the sorow of their lives jordan i'll stop you there professor jordan peters and after this break institutional british islamophobia with britain's first muslim woman peer in a suit in all the smoke coming up about to have going underground. the people that are now doing those manufacturing jobs also start to innovate because that's where the innovation happens on the factory floor so the fact that floors been moved to china as you point out they'll be ciolek china and we've moved all of our jobs manufacturing over china now all the innovations in china so we are it's not it's not created in california built in china is going to be created in china

built in china. welcome back i'm still here with professor jordan peterson do you think that your work is particularly attractive to those whose pride is in a sense being injured or being hurt by widespread recognition that their positions come from privilege and not from competence no i don't think that at all i think that my work is attractive to people who have been hurt. in all sorts of ways over the last decades by an overemphasis discussion of. impulse of happiness extensive rights materialist shallowness nihilism and india logical rigidity i think that my work is attractive to people who haven't found any profound basis on which to ground their existence

and i think that in the changing of the changing world perhaps where the kind of identity diversity is being the easy thing to blame for their own. lack of economic woes and lack of economic yes well i mean that's part of the path all of the of the present is that there is always an easy factor to blame and it's not like there aren't factors to blame life is arbitrary in many ways and people are subject to forces that are beyond their their any easy control that's the thrown us that the existentialists of the one nine hundred fifty s. insisted upon there's an r in luck to bill arbitrariness about life that it's very easy to become resentful and vengeful as a consequence of contemplating that but my my proposition to people is that that's a dark road and that it makes everything worse rather than better which is not

that's not an improvement if the conditions you're complaining about lead to the vengefulness. initially you have to go way through i mean if you're inferring that the threat in the fifties who of course was a fan of china. i mean five hundred million people have been lifted out of poverty of china since nine hundred eighty one to twenty twelve you don't see traces of what happened in the in the movement supported by those very same fifty's existentialist you don't see that that lineage well it isn't sartre that i was considering i was considering that there is a group of existential phenomenologists that were more crucial to one's a cable element of psychology but so i wasn't thinking about sartre you know i'm not an admirer of sartre mostly because of his continued his insistent dalliance with the communists and far longer than anyone with any sense should of. i see the

economic miracle that occurred in china and india and throwed southeast asia and increasingly in the rest of the world as a consequence of the spread of the same sort of ideas that made the west rich it's just fifty years afterwards or seventy five years afterwards which isn't very long from historical perspective but the spread of ideas of that are associated with private property and capitalist interactions clearly what's listed lifted china out of poverty although not quite as out of totalitarianism because i think members of the chinese communist party of a interviewed them would say that's too too reductive do you think i mean i know there's some controversy that you've tweeted to promote the institute for humane studies which is funded by the koch brothers is there a sense of the very right wing and some would say extreme right wing use of your work the koch brothers of course lobby for wars that killed wounded or displaced tens of millions they obviously oppose any environmental policies and the policies

of that well if you want to know what the right wing thinks of me you could read george jordan addicks by vox and you'll find that i'm very unpopular. are among the right wing identity types now i know you quoted winston churchill and you like doing it obviously for many people around the world is going to see that to be a mass murder even in ireland he set up the black and tans in the bengal famine and so forth you are an honorary member as regards colonialism of the kwok awak a walkover tribe in british columbia tell me about that tribe and why you're an honorary member of it and how whether you're in the fight for the return of art looted by colonialism in british columbia well i would say i'm not part of the latter but the reason that i'm associated with that tribe is because i started working with the native carver named charles joseph who i regard as quite a genius who was a. survivor of one of canada's most brutal residential schools and had a childhood that was so indescribably awful that well if you heard about it it

would. bring you to tears. i've worked with charles for fifteen years are buying his art which i think is quite remarkable and learning about his culture and we've had a very successful collaboration and as a consequence i was invited to join his family in a ceremony in. northern. on on vancouver island there was a ceremony with about five hundred people apart louch which is a traditional. ceremony and. him our relationship has been i would say primarily personal you know what. i've helped him with some of the consequences of his catastrophic childhood experiences we've managed to bridge the huge cultural gap between us and our societies to formalize lasting

friendship and i just got there just finally then and i know vancouver island and you presumably know the mass deforestation of that island off the coast of british columbia how important is the environment which is touted as the great is that to humankind even greater than lack of psychological feel for the alice just let alone lack of class with us well i don't think it is more crucial than lack of psychological insight because i think that societies that put themselves together properly will will look to the long run in the future long run and they'll take the steps that are proper with regards to attempts to make things sustainable which is very difficult i mean you know there all the news on the environmental front isn't bad there are more forests in the northern hemisphere for example than there were one hundred years ago and there's more forests in china and india than there were thirty years ago is that there's

a very powerful streak of anti humanity that runs through the more radical end of the environmentalist movement reflected in ideas like that human beings are like a cancer on the planet surface which i find unbelievably repugnant idea and i think that we're not doing so badly at trying to clean up the mess that we generate while we're struggling to survive and it's not like the mess is real and that there are dangers associated with it but my proclivity is to have some. sympathy for people is they do what they can to live under the harsh conditions that constitute . the circumstances of our lives and i think that we'll be wise enough to clean up our own nest and i think the evidence suggests that if you can get people in general above. g.d.p. of about five thousand dollars a year they start to become quite concerned with their environmental conditions and

to work diligently to try to make the. this circumstances in which they live sustainable in the long run but in conditions of dire poverty and. immediate day to day war and it's very difficult for people to attend to anything that might be remotely concerned with long term environmental sustainability professor jordan peterson thank you well someone who certainly supports the need for vigilance in the protection of the human rights of diverse groups the next guest the first muslim female peer in the house of lords baroness sued and she joins me now suited welcome to going on the ground first of all before we get to twenty five doris' suspended result of your reaction to the week's atrocities in birmingham five attacks four mosques hit the west midlands police saying at the time immediately of the motive behind it yet to be established i'm not surprised ok that there is five places of worship that's been attacked and it's been reported

which is a really good thing we have you know over a thousand messages and often people don't report it so i think in light of the fact that attacks have become so serious and so grevious that i'm really pleased that communities are reporting it and i'm just absolutely shocked that you know it is not yet being taken as seriously as i i'd like to see why do you think the media would not report the counter-terror or criminal actions. i can't speak for anyone else except to say that. community organizations will tell you that the numbers of attacks and the level of threat against them because they're simply must is huge and is hugely under-reported ok with the u.k. security bill so ben wallace after the christchurch massacre said britain strong mainstream media was a rock in the storm can you really celebrate our mainstream media in the face of his love of it i mean i think what i want to say is that the heart of our

parliament hard for many many notable institutions lie you know quiet some folks and i think tory party that twenty five you know or fifteen who have been suspended is just one small examples and i think that when wallace to see reexamined what he says in light of what is blatantly fact i mean you've got some of the headlines right behind you and i think that it's speaks for itself about where the commitment in the mainstream media is about muslims and islam the british government is spending twenty five thousand a per jewish institution to curb the roosevelt separatism which also has been on the rise only five million for all islamic institutions in terms of special protections and given the rise of islamophobia to be equal to zero i mean i think you know any sensible minister looking at their action would know instantly that

there has to be quality whatever the hatred is and i think that that's really important i mean i just want to take this opportunity to say i think the prime minister of new zealand has said and enormous benchmark for other leaders to follow and i think i'm just so proud as a woman to associate myself with the kind of style and the positioning that she has taken and it's so sad that you know in houses of parliament you know there was a debate on recently on islamophobia and there still is kind of a. islamophobia comments made against islam and muslims very blatantly as though it's part of the nature of democracy you know so that people are able to sort of stand and say i'm speaking because i am entitled to make free speech is without realizing what the consequence is and the consequence is the attacks on. it so i think that we have to be very very seriously responsible i also want to tell you

that on the day that we had a debate on the summer phobia few weeks ago tom robinson visited that same afternoon and a number of us are oh yeah yeah absolutely and he's well known he's been you know indicted for it and yet he visits the how those houses of parliament the heart of democracy on the same day to say as though well you know you do not matter is some of for some a phobia doesn't matter and the reason i think we're speaking up so often we're having to speak up so often is because our government is so far behind and so much in the dark ages in terms of addressing hatred we have to take it seriously when somebody speaks race hate it when somebody speaks in a hate against islam hate against muslim muslim women for instance part of you know our our lives and so if cameron can get away saying that. somehow and i'm paraphrasing it i don't want to be you know sort of quoted directly in that

sense but i'm paraphrasing with power and as a prime minister can get away saying if muslim women spoke english that somehow they'd be less terrorism i mean just absolutely outrageous and not one newspaper mainstream newspaper stood up and said this is unacceptable. that's over the show give it a try social media show monday where we were she gave us style ideological threat to health care around the world. after the previous stage of my career was over everyone wondered what i was going to do next the different clubs on one hand it is logical to go from fields where everything is familiar with the other i wanted a new challenge and a fresh perspective and i'm used to surprising. if you think.

i'm going to talk about football not the or else you think i was going to go. by the way ways of the. force regime change in iran the trumping ministration risk andy global oil markets also if you want to russians house for being a citizen of ukraine could help. ban

face covering in public as a security measure in response to the easter sunday bombings which claimed more than two hundred fifty lines. food and beverages giant pepsi co comes under fire for picking up battles. promised to go into the company's best selling chris brown . and the german contender for the european commission's top job. north stream to a project designed to pump the russian gas into europe that has official.