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argue dot com true it's not over so if you go covering the conflict in eastern ukraine. change of leadership in ukraine has spurred for a dialogue between moscow and kiev can this crisis be stopped from becoming a frozen conflicts or is it too late to talk about this here today with me is thomas graham heard the secretary general of. the new multi-polar world is fraught with danger and potential conflict trios looks even in wealthy unstable europe will the diverging interests of twenty first century trigger wars in regions where it never seems possible before what makes international organizations like the u.s.

see the influence existing conflicts and just deal with the results his own response needed more in the future. it's really great to have on our show it's the first time you're on my shows and very happy to have you as a guest and have lots to discuss let's start of with ukraine i know that you've been saying they are going to see could serve as an honest broker between russia and ukraine but the two countries have been at odds for like five years now why do you think that your organization has enough clout to actually push moscow in kids to a great three. look we've been pretty good in managing the crisis in iraq over the last five years i think he managed to prevent further escalation of the conflict and banks especially monitoring mission to ukraine i think he also made a major difference for the people on the ground in terms of fossil. of

silence for human turn ever. again make sure that medians of people have walter electricity electricity gas and cetera but obviously. monitoring of the conflict is not enough to move closer to resolving the conflict and there i think you always see haass some tools for instance to cope that meets on a body clean basis in minsk. of all five signatories often means. around the table nothing. much more effectively. the neat political impulse needs to come. from. but ideally to normandy for. the has been. giving political guidance to process so basically what i'm eating for is an alter

politically impulse ideally stemming from the moment you feel so let's little talk about normal for in a bit but before that i want to talk. about the possible u.n. peacekeepers arriving in ukraine. before the elections in ukraine then president poroshenko said that this could be solved an agreement could be reached on us peace peacekeepers arriving to ukraine as early as may we're doing it this year do you think that idea is still feasible but i always. defend the position if peace operational you would be separation even such as the joint un always. if these allows us to get out of the political impasse of implementing demeans agreements go for it go for it. what we have seen is the proposals for an operation the for so masterfully.

from a very simple. peacekeeping operation. very traditional if you sign. a comprehensive. peace operation. i write a figure of twenty thousand. men. and as long as the half. concepts that differ so widely will not half basis to negotiate the u.n. security council resolution so basically as long as there is not more of a common understanding of the scope of such an operation not fly so i want to get your point of the on how that shit sort of take place russia wants to be in peacekeepers on the front line protecting the stuff he crane once again peacekeepers on its border that was russia. where do you think they should be but i

think the desire. issue is das the un operation serve to implement the means agreements if it dos i think we could eventually different positions i think it would be a matter of sequencing. to build up an operation a linking meet its progress in implementing the political provisions of the means agreements so i think it will be doable but i think. the basis be agreements and if there is an attempt to. bypass. if that were to happen you don't have to rely on its members to provide troops and we have like a very delicate situation when it comes to ukraine

a lot of interests are involved which countries do you think should contribute to the u.n. mission in ukraine so that no one is really playing and being biased i think there has been is a tradition in u.n. peace operations not to engage troops off states that have a direct stake even in a crisis or in a conflict and this would certainly also apply here. so you would have to focus on the number of states that are. not. directly stakeholders off the crisis i think again depending on the size of such an operation. these sorts of bar would be doable. not there yet that first i think we need to come to a much more common understanding. of the scope of such an operation and then i think the next question. then b.

who would come to fewer troops but no matter the scope of the peacekeeping mission it will have to be decided by the security council that this do you think that at this point security council is getting more involved in the whole affair. with this option of a peace operation that yes. at the same time i think it would be wise to keep you always closely involved. for obvious reasons because been working in this context for the last five years. you know we will have a lot to offer basically you have all civilian components of a peace operation. to bring in. and this is also by the half. the possibility of a joint u.n. always see operation but again i would caution we're not there yet so the new

leader ukrainian leaders. that normally for maybe needs to be expanded maybe america and united kingdom should also be part of it what do you think there are two opinions that this would actually make it even more chaotic and bury the whole thing there's thing that it will bring the new life. the clearly are in dire need of a new political impulse. to get implementation off to mean scream it's moving that bad news for sure now. impulse come from. refer to a moment. before. i thought for me the obvious. what . would you associate. additional important stakeholders to the mediation formant. i'm not sure what i'm sure of that

once the come to a solution. of a forward. the need to all major stakeholders speech and such a solution including of course the united states of america. but i don't think they should be part of the extent. to normandy for two days i don't have. an idea that's just a proposal that's floating around just as an idea do you think it could help when you know the implications you know the relations between u.k. and russia united states and russia do you think bringing them together at the same table could actually help the crisis or on the contrary. certainly need both the u.s. and u.k. . to tupac. forward however the way forward then we look look like if. the two states should be part of the mediation format the socks i'm not

sure complicate matters but again these are. defined in every conflict resolution process. mediators are chosen by the sites and they need to feel comfortable mediators you've also pointed out a couple of times that there's not enough. political will in care to implement the means agreements now have the new leader by the millions his like a man from the people maybe he doesn't have experience of his predecessor in politics but you know he's widely regarded as someone who would bring upon change in every possible field do you think was when we can hope that the agreements could move forward well i've been saying there is knocked off political will to implement the main screens full stop and it does implies to all sides.

obviously i do hope after. conclusion of the presidential selection. presidential election process in ukraine. we will get and we in polls. i think it's very difficult to speculate about the new president's positions. we'll see. but clearly i think there is an opportunity for a new beginning. their reason all but you want to be for peace i need it political impulses to move forward to force resolving the crisis so right now conflict is five years old g eight consider any present conflict like that and not going to get about where it turns mystery you. know it's clearly not a frozen accompli i mean there is people dying practically on the on the on

a daily basis. that there is. there are ceasefire. barreling between a few hundred and. two thousand and there are two and a half thousand recently. so this is a very hot conflict and it. also creates a lot of human suffering and so for me this is far from a frozen conflict so if it were to become a frozen conflicts like the ones that i cited earlier would consider it as a success or thing there. you know we always see. can do we want to do is mandated to do by its participating states if you mandate to. manage conflict.

has been the case reached the special monitoring mission to ukraine it. fascinating to drive all contact group. we can do so. and the same goes for instance for the conflict i think he's been fairly successful in preventing. further escalations in making sure that. local cease fire. will not escalate the war not spin out of control because they take a break right now a back we'll continue talking to thomas graham secretary general of. talking about ukraine the balkans and reform of statements.

after the previous stage of my career was over everyone wondered what i was going to do next about different clubs on one hand it is logical to go from fields where everything is familiar on the other i wanted a new challenge and a fresh perspective i'm used to surprising if. you think. i'm going to talk about football not or else you can think i was going to do it. by the way what is that that's like here.

we're back with thomas graham heard the secretary general of the oh i see thomas went away about his. c. o. a c. also has a mission there kosovo is considering. shape their security forces to. full fledged army serbia of course thinks is very dangerous it could start a new conflict what do you think. we are of course concerning to. the very on the even. peace and stability in the best and balkans. states.

lately. in a quite impressive. i think for instance off the price book remember. those my so the one you know i think they're. the half manage the international community but also in the political leaders. to create. an island of stability i'm very disappointed dr totally stock of any of the columns . dialogue. i think all every progress in terms of course of all day. they need to but they depend. the stock process and there have been a number of factors. brought this process to a standstill my soon my you know you mention your question is very simple do you

think a former r.v. in kosovo is a good idea or not clearly at this point in time it's not helpful and to say obviously it also goes for one hundred percent tire hippo's. the both sides kosovo and serbia are playing with their idea of this land swap but then european union says it's a very bad idea and if that were to happen that would open pandora's box what do you think what more do with what if they could actually help bridge the divide between pristina and belgrade with your organization support that idea of land swap i think we're. there is for the time being that this idea has been that this guy the two presidents. and i have been formalized official eyes be can only guess what they've been talking about feel like for them it's more real than for the europeans because i recently spoke to the serbian prime

minister and yes you're right there are no concrete agreements on it but they're thinking about it more seriously than one might think. that were to happen would you support that idea look i had to soften off talking beats most presidents over recent months and i agree i think there were serious proposals being discussed. at the same time i would also argue that to be half an. entire proposal that both presidents have told us and the. swap is only one. of a comprehensive. package and as long as we don't see this comprehensive package i think it's difficult to take a serious position on it well i would do what i would say is if the two.

states come to a deal to arrange also agree to. i think. eventually. we will have to accept it. i want to talk about the general state of things and how they're looking right now so i want to say we have russia's last oct twenty eighth i mean they said we have nato. do you think this is what is going to be from now on and calm response and big military exercises this is our world of today it is the thoughts the pattering. seen. developing over the last three four years. of course of worrying picture. the o.e.c.d. takes is. of course one hundred percent normal. military exercises police notified them.

notified them also below the foremost threshold that needs to be notified according to the vienna document be careful when it comes to snap exercises again as much transparency as possible. be careful that the closer to the border. these clearly while message. the are giving. the message i think is we need to. focus more into the prevention incident management you know we have launched these structures process. but these are big. states on politi community military matters again for the last two years. promising to forment. more the discuss issues of. military. which

makes a geisha and. transparency. strengthening existing competence and security building measures in order to. prevent. miscalculations accidents potentially could spin out of control some potentially potential talk about potential accidents while six states are apparently police and concerned the russian threat and they're very happy every time nato conducts their drills on their territory and this obviously gets on the nerves of the russians it's like a never ending story but since you're going to zation mission is actually early conflict prevention do you see a serious conflict potential there. you see i think threat perceptions need to be taken seriously and this is. while most of reasons why we launched this

structured. to allow participating states to come together and share strength perceptions. i think it is only by getting a better sense of. the other side. we can gradually rebuild trust and call to do come here all the time and not just part of the western well right you know their reality on the ground here just as much as you know with the reality on the ground there do you feel your take threats should be taken seriously do you think there is a potential it's absolutely irrelevant to how i feel about it here. you know as you say take care thank you. what matters office actions perceptions by participating states and because perceptions also shape reality so. if

a participating state. consistent threat perception. i think needs to be taken into account. responses and i think full days. we need. again dialogue for. each change and to better understand and i think there is also a need for more. readiness more empathy to try to understand the altar if you want to progress and if you want to come out of this very polarized very and they're going to stick in my mind the operating currently do you like your organization in today's world has enough tools of influence to actually solve the problems that it is facing because it was created it's a cold war child when it was created when america you know u.s.s.r.

where at loggerheads and yes there was a potential conflict threat that was real and that was a real threat to europe that i mean right now as much as america and russia aren't liking each other their relationship is definitely not a threat to european union or europe as a whole europe is definitely facing other threats i don't know like terrorism populists hacker's climate change immigration you name it but this is nothing compared to a threat that it was facing before. when the cold war was on do you know maybe your organization needs of fundamental reform the answer will be of course every organization needs to be constantly reform. needs to respond to challenges there needs to make sure it's.

convincing answers to the challenges. off today and indeed we are facing. new challenges. in my address to moscow security conference for instance. that can all rapid technological change artificial intelligence etc this is going to bring lots of which are inches in terms of security but the same time i will argue the always see a fantastic toolbox developed over the time since the. top to the helsinki nine hundred seventy five when it comes to. dating dialogue you always see the forms inclusive platform for dialogue on offer. mediation formats for conflicts

so i think it's not a matter of the toolbox are they effective enough those platforms i'll tell you i'm asking because what we've seen lately is for instance i don't know you have the normandy for for ukraine solving the problem you have asked on our group for syria a half that p five plus one for iran deal so this makeshift diplomatic formats right now are more effective than anything that un can do because people stopped long stopped looking at united nations as a platform that decides anything or solves any problems for most of the people i know here and in a way as you know that nations right now is like a pointless platform where people can lash of each other. do you feel like people have trust in your organization as a problem. do you think it's effective enough i would. use. even more frequently brings tools.

to the political. states to use. i think it will be can do is make sure these tools are smart. we need the political resolve if you want to move ahead thank you tom. thank you so much thank you thank you for the always see.

the international memorial awards twenty nine. media professionals are eligible whether you are a freelance journalist media or part of a global news conference to participate in published works and video which. seems wrong. to me. article and in gains from it because of the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground.

for. the most time what we do here maybe my family always special donor summer or spring time allowed to go fusion basically here we try to catch a lot of us got big.