on that disease. from now the mountains of money only grow while. the u.s. attorney general refuses to testify before the house judiciary committee on his and the length of the road for the session was labeled as a circus by republicans with one democratic member. chicken bar should've shown up today and answered why should they go to a prove you're not terrified to sit for anybody still in the circus continues over the. us is said to continue its support for the saudi intervention in yemen after the senate fails to override president trump's veto of a resolution that would have ended u.s. engagement. with the leaks founder julian assange.

in the u.k. on whether he should be extradited to the u.s. . the latest on these stories you can head to our dot com coming up a former islamic extremist who became a spy for m i six is. close to. her welcome to sophie and sophie shevardnadze a man who swore an oath of allegiance to osama bin laden and met with the architects of the nine eleven attacks a mundane is with me today talking about his journey from an al qaeda operative to a top and my six spy. the transition from monday to collective. school

meetings so forming clandestine cells and buying guns a load to repeat all the old carnage across the world is there really a single pulse to terrorism called and every recruit how do violent groups like al qaeda recruit and retain new members and what happens if someone decides they have to get out of the deadly game. a mundane former al qaeda operative turned one of your case top intelligence assets within the terrorist group welcome to the show it's really great to have you with us today excited to even have to have you now you were described as a master bomb maker and w m d specialist but also a religious scholar what was your occupation with their guns ation exactly well i mean when i joined the organization in ninety ninety seven. i was more or less all of the attorney in mum and the idea basically i thought i wanted to you know give religious lessons and i was giving religious lessons to some of the recruits but

also they noticed that they had been up to you would form us and chemistry and so that's why they assigned me to a small lab somewhere in the west of dell about the not gonna son which was working on explosives chemical weapons boys and some bottle weapons and so that's why they sent me that basically but did you actually have to fight like take part in any field operations. well. the time basically in afghanistan the fight was against the northern alliance which was composed of a michelle massaro downed bunny and also the she just and we know that was big fight as so they were congregating mostly in the north of kabul so i would take some more patients and i was sent to the frontline and know basically once every three months but i wouldn't call that fighting it was mostly you know exchanging mortar you know with enemy so how hard was it for you to cross that border from

a normal life into a life which is pretty much about killing well you know it was really at the age of sixteen when i wanted to go to bosnia and fight the jihad there so when i was leaving aside arabia and the comfort of my life there i wasn't thinking that i was going to join a terror organization it was more like the international brigade of the spanish civil war so we were going to a volunteer fight him on one side of the civil war in bosnia which is the side of the bosnian muslims against the subs it wasn't you know the intention to go and join a terror organization is just i didn't know that the jihad in bosnia was run by managed by members or veterans of the egyptian jemaah islamiya you know the group that was responsible and the early one nine hundred eighty s. for the assassination of president sadat in egypt he wants out that that brutality

of the boston war made you question your commitment to them which i had seen cause but after bosnia you aren't of galveston and couldn't resist a ideological appeal. what was it about them that was so irresistible so to say i mean how do you go from a moment of critical doubt to plunging into that pool job back. it was a toxic mix all theology politics and eschatology or basically you know the prophecies of ancient islam basically. preached to us of the time telling us that we are in of the soldiers of destiny that somehow i want to jihad is to bring about no the fifth or the fifth stage of islamic history is basically to recreate the caitiff it that's what they were telling us at the time und that to was enough of you know for me to be in

a fascinating to join because i remember it when you're out of the comes the are not exposed to other forms of opinion in and that is there isn't the opinion of the country opinion there is only that this openly and the supporting opinion and the even more supporting open in. so you point to the deadly terror attacks on u.s. embassies in ninety eight ass events that made you reconsider your decision to join al qaeda but all kind of is pretty naive and attacks also included collateral damage why did you still decide to join it in nineteen ninety eight the attacks against the u.s. embassies and there will be in turns on you was a massive departure from what a car that was planning to do you see the first attack for a car there or a fire definitely it was in riyadh a nine hundred ninety five against american military contractors and then of course

there was the whole bar bombings although al qaida didn't do it but it was also targeting inside arabia to us dog getting u.s. air force pilots so the dog us with a military in a sense and i thought when i joined the organization that the fight would be against the americans and the american military inside arabia that's what the law then was preaching to us at the time that the fight would be to expel the american forces out of the middle east altogether so when the attacks happened in africa it was a complete departure because it no we are killing first of all u.s. diplomats not military and killing them on in countries that has nothing to do whatsoever with the fight between us and the americans so two hundred twenty african civilians were killed that day five thousand wounded hundred of them fifty of them were blinded for life because of the shop knows embedded within the device so of course that was a shocking event for me it was a departure from what a car that was doing before so you worked with new recruits for al qaeda in

afghanistan where they where all the bad ones they were getting into there were a way it's going to be violent they were aware that it's jihad after all and it's not going to be a picnic therefore they are going to commit their lives to the cause. that too and that's what they call i don't want to do the time in order to expel the americans out of the middle east bring about the change in the governance. and create the caliphate dot what was. brought them into the fold of jihad then a field of applied. you know. and that was a common theme among them all so as you've sat radicalization happens in different ways for some it's a matter of days for others years but have you ever noticed common features in this individual journeys to extract his i'm anything but unites them except the purpose

. five common themes the first one is the need for redemption many people understand that islam is a guilt based religion most of devout muslim and i feel guilty about many things but that's what islam is about and therefore basically there is a need for redemption and not try to do within every muslim. now you know out of the you know one point eight billion muslims on the very few people seek redemption in jihad that i stick with them should end in good actions and charity and being good to others but there are a few people who seek redemption in jihad because jihad you know. is which preach is the short to spot the heaven. the most of them so redemption the second is empowerment people basically who feel marginalized people feel feel they are powerless in front of what they perceive to be injustice of the injustice of their governments or the injustice of the global system as

a whole so you know empowerment is a second theme the third theme is revenge in a people feel that since they identify with islam as their only identity if that identity is under attack or have been violated therefore they need to do something in order to avenge the you know that this on that that happened in or took place against their identities so event is that the theme also they forth theme you'll see here basically is that liberation of the in a sadist i mean there are segments of the jihad just you know mindsets you know some within the you know within the jihadist community who really are say this they came from prisons they came from violent homes they had violent upbringing and so therefore they find that indeed hard they can liberate that in a sadist to commit an act of violence that is defined against an enemy and the fifth. in a common theme is destiny prophecies eschatology the fact that they are. fulfilling

the divine blueprint for this war that has taken place right now they think basically they are fulfilling a certain set of prophecies so you because you're very well learned in islamic studies where the person who explained the lore of their religion to records i heard that isis fighters have a really shallow understanding of islam is this true i mean do extremists need a better religious education today all really understand the face they're fighting for. of course because the problem is we have a theological crisis right now within islam. and that is because many muslims out on the world basically have a superficial understanding of their face and also that is exploited by many preachers who have voltaire motives in a for fourteen hundred dia's into the sea elegy of jihad always stated that jihad or the deployment of violence is the prerogative of the states now suddenly for the

past fifty years we see that it became the probative of individuals and small groups of individuals and that wasn't the case at all we were told for fourteen hundred days that suicide is forbidden no exception now we see that suicide. in the battlefield or in a war situation or in terrorism is allowed under the only allowed but you can't take others with you in suicide missions and so that in a state to the death is a testament that we have a problem within islamic theology that need to be fixed and we need to educate the young people about it. anyone who tells you come and join the jihad than you will say well i thought the jihad was into the pocket of the state how could i basically go against my own nation state that is why the problem we see i know is not a battle between islam and the west it is actually a battle within islam a civil war within islam are at we can take a short break right now when we're back we'll continue to topple

a mundane former al qaeda member who turning to one of the top m i six spy is discussing his path to intelligence work state. me.

we're back with mr raymond being a former al qaeda member who defected from the group to work with western intelligence services discussing his lives as an infiltrator within al qaeda. how does a base camp of a terror group like that operate when who decides who is in charge you watch. what is the chain of command what is to standard of the training are there former officers doing like marine type drills for everyone. well i mean if i tell you for example what a comp that belong to

a car that looked like for example which operated in the mid one nine hundred ninety s. until it was bombed in one thousand nine hundred eight by the americans of the suffolk a woman's every day we would wake up for example in zero eight before dawn prayer as you know for the players of course and then there is the morning parade and then there is a military training. you know there would be military training with its weapons and warfare mountain warfare explosives and you know other. military tactics and then there would be the religious training the ideological training and then there would be the creation of activities you know sports hiking and even volleyball or football something about. so of course there would be the meals and the players in between who is in charge and of course basically the chain of command goes all the way to osama bin laden of the time but of course someone like i've been the who was the military commander of a car that would decide who would be the. you know the leaders of these comes who

are the trainers and the instructors most of them are veterans of the afghan jihad against the soviets and the post but there are some who came from out of military. remember we used to have people who used to be former egyptian military officer former syrian military offices. and or from kuwait even at the time who used to be even in the bodyguards of them out of kuwait even so they would bring in their military experience and in the rich the training experience of the operatives. so are ok people records for grants commanders getting paid like people in isis may who handles the money where does it come from well the money at the time used to come from donations also from that i'm months off. investments and so done so generally speaking if you are looking at the car the operatives who are have

money than have families most of them were getting stipends you know from a card as general command but you know some engaged in trade and that was one of the things that enabled me to later infiltrate them properly because many of the card as commandos have their own families and they wanted to expand their own trade so they would trade in luxury food items in a like honey or a pink himalayan salt or gun nuts and spices and we would exported them to the middle east and europe so i was one of those who at some point help them set up some of the business up about this and that enabled me to come and go out of afghanistan more frequently and that was my cover story of the time syllogistic logistics wise are these terror groups efficient at providing supplies information aid exciter and or are they chaotic and i'm disciplined yes and no. no you

really hit it on the nail here when you say that they are both disciplined and chaotic jihadism is a concern and the life within in a jihad is groups in who gives you the impression that they are really disciplined and organized but the same time there is an element of chaos. and disorganization and you see it. in a walk working in parallel with each other you see that contradiction in a could this thing so yes sometimes basically you think that it's all going smooth and sometimes no it's a no. totally chaotic it depends on who is in charge at the particular place in a particular time so have you seen how the operations are planed i mean who picks to target who distributes to roles and how is there a group that scouts out a target and another that conducts state tax. well it depends on

each country and each cell within a country so for example in saudi arabia it's one of the places where i monitor the working of a car in that country they would have a group that would do that economists and then there is a group that will actually put together the. group or secure the weapons a group basically will be the one who will build the devices for the suicide vehicles and then you have the foot soldiers on the ground who would basically execute the attack. you know for example there was another. situation like for example in iraq you would have you know most of these people actually modest together so you will have the group that will because it targets. and decide what operations they will carry out and then you have a group that would build the bombs and then you would have the group who were executed so it all depends basically on the day now mix of the theater they are

operating in. ten minutes you left and then you great to spy on them for m i six are terror groups like al qaeda are fairly well penetrated by governments or worry i rare a big hit for the case by service and the fifty three months between one thousand nine hundred ninety nine and two thousand and one when i was infiltrating the minute gonna stand during these times five spies were apprehended by a car the two were working for the daniel intelligence services and three were working for. an intelligence service and they were executed i don't know if they were truly spies or not but it shows that there were concerted efforts by many governments to try to infiltrate them and for good reason there were many jordanians there were many egyptians there were many algeria there were many saudis so in a many countries had stakes in trying to infiltrate them but that was about. organization and they were conducting random checks even i was subject to random check at some

point i was able basically you know i was lucky actually to be able to withstand that so in a sense that but i know you. know netted them some successes in terms of counter intelligence but because of they went to too many many multiple stakeholders and you know they were. an organization that is a target for infiltration by the many different players so what was i see maybe i was i had a t. in the sense that i wasn't caught and that's i think you know. the narrative comes in so i wonder how you pulled that off well what made you believe you could pull them. well first of all you know as a spy you have to really split your own personality into two you that is the committed jihad ist that was still a life there within me and then there is the bus and who wanted to counter

everything they were doing and try and dismantle everything they were doing so you have to really become a good actor in order to fool them you have to follow your own family in order to fool them that's the first thing the second thing is you have to be useful. and by that i mean basically i've learned certain skills one of them is bomb making the other basically was to do in a business on behalf of some of the commandos who had families to feed so they can't afford to suspect you and they know any better though if they have about you basically they brush it aside because they out of the pendant to a new so depend this is important also the sametime of lead the skill off interpreting dreams using the koran as a man in a someone who actually memorize a koran by heart and as people who are reading the koran every day of the jihad just dreams are always influenced by the koran so if i know the power on by heart i could basically if i learn some you know understand some psychology of dream

interpretation then i'll be able to even gain more intelligence where they will come to me and tell me about their own dreams because it matters to them so much a superstitious people and they will tell me more about them themselves about where they come from their families their mothers their patterns their siblings so that was important i'd never ask questions so i just become useful skilful and people will come to me and volunteer information as a you know as a result. i just wonder was it like to meet your former brothers in arms again when you went back but this time as someone who is there to help bring them down i mean you trusted these guys you were ready to commit your life to them. how now you're here working against them looking looking at them into their eyes i mean you must have had pretty strong feelings about them to be able to do it. it's one of the conundrums of spying especially on large groups like these specially with the sense

of camaraderie and a sense of great affection that they show to each other and of course they shown to me and i have to show back to them that he is you have to differentiate between the individual and the cause you have to separate completely between the individual you are targeting in a for information and to understand the cause they are pursuing. just because you know you love your brother or sister that doesn't mean basically that you to liberate them if they become serial killers. you know you know the love for the person is there but the hatred for what they stand for is also there and you can actually combine both of the same time if you learn how to do it then you know you would be able to continue spying on them without raising suspicion without being seen to be hostile to them personally relevant to the cause they are pursuing but worry i ever tempted to maybe say the law is there as well were you ever tempted to maybe save them and bring them on the bright side well that's that's would be

a suicide for me i mean basically the end of this is a way of survival instincts kick in then say no don't do it in the trying to bring them to the bright side i mean basically i mean i would end up. in a five inches shorter. if the two have to happen so no survival instinct in a will in a kick in then would prevent me from trying to explain to them that well i mean what you're doing is wrong you look at the big picture for the greater good it know maybe these people need saving but you know there are the priority for me is saving those who will be their future victims. and then there is this and infiltration op was and eight by a leak from the american site which could have ended your life basically with a full on publication in a press about a spy and al qaeda out there for everyone to read it and as far as i understood before that you managed to make it work quite well was it a pity to have to end it like that. through no fault of yours or was it maybe

a relief that you don't have to do it anymore whether. it's interesting that you mentioned the word relief yes it was a relief in a sense but of course of the beginning. it was a sense of anger and a sense of frustration that this should happen you know i was actually luckily i was on a holiday in potus and it was the first one of the ads i think you know just americans through and it's. so basically i was in paris and then i received a text from a comrades of mine in the from a former associate telling me basically you know go and read the time magazine the website there's a spy among us so when i went to read of course you know my heart sunk all the way to my stomach and i realize they were talking about me you know there were so many operations i was involved in in two thousand and five two thousand and four thousand and three and prior to that and i can see you know the many pieces of

intelligence came from me and i was the only common denominator between all of these operations and intel. who's left with them this way so of course i knew that the guy that will put two and two together and say read the article in the book that was in a promoted in that article. and there will issue there for. two years later actually they did find it i read it and worked it out. you know. demises or basically you know giving permission for my killing but what about now now that you're super public about it are you not afraid of a kind of being up to you well i mean the well of the two attempts on my life before there was a book or publication or anything. you know so it's so somehow coming out publicly you know in a way actually if it lessened then decrease the amount of death threats i'm getting

so i was getting more death threats actually before the publication since then basically it's been quieter and for a good reason because basically in a being public is better for security in than being you know in hiding as far as these groups are concerned it's counter-intuitive but that's how the lao thank you so much for this wonderful insight and for this interview it's been a great pleasure talking to a very interesting. where we're talking to a mundane for world had a member who defected and worked for u.k. spy services talking about his past from jihad to intelligence work that's it for this edition of something called school next.

so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have it's crazy going from day shouldn't let it be an arms race based on often scary dramatic development that only mostly i'm going to resist i don't see how that strategy will be successful very critical of time time to sit down and talk.

the democratic presidential candidate who's pushing a universal basic income and warns that robots are coming to take millions of american jobs a one on one with white house hopeful andrew yang on this edition of. welcome to politicking i'm matthew cook in for larry king coming up later in the program the always outspoken ron paul former congressman and three time presidential contender but we begin with andrew yang entrepreneur and democratic white house hopeful he's the founder of venture for america and author of the book the war on normal people the truth about america's disappearing jobs and why universal basic income is our future there's a lot to unpack in that title alone let's get started as andrew joins me from new

york andrew welcome to the program. thanks for having me matt.