and a member of the royal irish academy and we have martin folley he is a senior lecturer in international history at yale university are gentlemen cross-talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want i always appreciate before we get started i want to congratulate martin and jeffrey on their new book here churchill and stalin comrades in arms during the second world war. i work in television i love documentaries i love films and i love history and in one thousand nine hundred ninety three the b.b.c. came out with a documentary series the world war one hundred seventy three nine hundred seventy six. documentary that conflict could that could documentary like that be made today and put on netflix and would people watch it and what would it look like. the world was a fantastic documentary series anyone is interested in history a second world war should watch should watch that series ok so you said it comes out in the ninety seventies which is a period of they don't you know the politics of that period are reflected in the

documentary itself the interesting thing is though. only a small number of episodes are actually devoted to the soviet german from two to maybe three or something but those particular. huge kind of impact on the huge kind of emotional resonance that we might i think probably if the right people were to make it the question to my mind is how would it be received how would it be received politically and how would it be received in the popular culture i would expect the politically he would be resisted and criticised for obvious reasons but . i think it would have signed on to could have sunk on his impact as it had in the one nine hundred seventy when you think about that because in popular culture at least in the western i mean american so i can speak best about the united states you know saving private ryan we had ken burns documentary series but it's very very american centric but i guess we should expect. that here but this was

a world war and the soviet war effort is absolutely critical do western audiences really know that i mean in moscow here this is the victory day it's a big day in this country in the post soviet space it's not the case in the u.k. or the united states i think a certain times they've known it but it gets forgotten. well i think in britain we're a little obsessed about our own role in the second world war which is a very important event for us partly because of what's happened to person since the second world war so that it's the landmark of the moment when britain stood alone and that's part of our national identity should be very proud of but the problem with being proud of standing alone is you tend to perhaps downplay the role of those who stood alongside you and i think that that's one of the problems the british have of conceiving affection perhaps for any of our allies even perhaps for the americans who have always been somewhat ambiguous about what your speakers

bureau wanted to save the empire not just a britain ok and that was a big tension between roosevelt and churchill i mean it's really remarkable that roosevelt never went to the u.k. during the war he wouldn't do that you know he wouldn't he kept saying that he would have a tendency to say all sorts of things to please his audience with no intention of actually following through whereas of course he did visit the soviet union. and was very keen to do so because he he felt the future he wasn't called a traitor like donald trump is called a traitor you know glenn you're from the continent itself what is victory dane. well i think it's less focus in continental western europe than i would here but obviously they're both pointing out history as sort of function as one is to remember history and ideally learning from it but the second is also to develop

your own national identity fit into the contemporary ideologies which is why obviously would be easier to make a more historical accurate documentary in the seventy's while today because there was a cold war because there was. a transatlantic community there but also at the time trying to find common cause i think now it would be very. different because if we would try to have a very historical accurate portrayal of the second world war we would have to of course pay tribute to the russians who bore the main brunt of effectively a defeated nazi germany but that would defeat the second. purpose of. telling history which would be able to sensibly be seen as empathizing too much you know cheering on or even being almost treasonous in terms of applauding russia you know but to me they know irony is there of course is that there was an ideological struggle it wasn't that it was going to put

a pause obviously to defeat fascism in europe but. it it shows what could be done if you had the political will i mean you don't have to like your your partners ok you don't have to be friends with them you have a common goal and i think this is what's missed since the end of the cold war is because there are real important international issues that need to be addressed but if you. porton countries like the united states and russia are not working together then it's counterproductive here and it's because they don't want to recognize historical facts they got along during the second world war why can't they do that today absolutely the most important thing about the second world war from the point of view is that it was a common struggle it was a common colds ok there were lots of social political cultural differences between the parties in the ground laws but are also a lot of little things in common and there was some common war aims as well and the effort to move. this coalition coalition the ground lost it was hugely successful.

the styling for it was the most successful millett political military coalition history i tend to. agree what you're saying is that. if they could be unity cooperation collaboration and mutual understanding then there's no reason in principle what we can have the same thing now if you'll. just tell you my view on. purely political obstacles mainly i have to say mainly on the west and saw it rather than them so it's really the lack of political will that's really what it gets down to i think so but it's interesting that the period when that documentary was made the end of ninety six beginning ninety seven two is that they're being quite a lot of profound shocks in the one nine hundred sixty s. that make people think a bit more about the danger of confrontation cuban missile crisis is a perfect example so they're looking i think they were receptive to think about the time when we worked together in this great cause and that whole film comes out of

the sense that we were you all in this together so so people for a certain age remembering the feeling that it's great to a great generation i think it is what lies in the u.k. as it does in the united states of course that documentary is driven by the recollections of people who were there are no historians and it yes and if you were to make it again i would say count the talking heads let's hear from the people who were there which would be difficult now but that's what they they're all still you know i had never thought about what made it so charming because it was so authentic yet you know speaking of beauty and been you know the struggle you know when we entered the cold war. it's still the allied coalition and that's what kept it going when we then we went into the ideological complicated europe doesn't have that kind it doesn't have a moment of unity right now i mean i don't see you know a great moment that brought the entire continent together because what we see now

is a rise of bright green groups and kind of you know away at some of the more nasty elements of the second world war we can talk about what's going on in ukraine for example with the they were turned step and bend and the rise of neo fascist groups and ideologies. i think that. disruption our. in europe it's mostly from the right of right wing populist but do you also have left wing talk populist of course so that it's more about the center. and you have all. this alternative you're always the understatement i don't want. a lot more division i guess a lot of the source for our unity across europe collapse so this is not necessarily a good thing for russia because russia tends to be a bit of a unifier if things go wrong we can always point to russia and unity

against a common other serious i guess the incentive not to talk up. the threat as we have this disunity in the west i think it doesn't work jeff it isn't work i don't see that it works ok i'm just going there. was a moment of unity in europe and that moment was off the collapse of the so you collapse of communism or in the immediate post soviet post cold war era the ninety's when you have to magically translate into hostility towards russia about just point you know you know so you had this expansion of the you had this expansion that efforts to actually unify the count of the continent so that was the moment of unity but of course it was at the expense of russia and what should have happened in the nine hundred ninety s. but didn't we're paying the price now is the show you're russia should have been integrated into that unifying moment you said it was kept a distance not you treated treated very badly it was really it was really interesting doing the there in the cold war they had this concept of captive nations. under communism and i got myself into

a huge huge trouble for saying but russia was a captive nation as well that really disturbed people ok because what i'm what i'm saying is that that was an ideological conflict it wasn't with the people yes yes that's right. it's interesting since we talk about remembering the second world war the way to remember walking you through the. for this in that there are all those who argue that the lessons of the wall was worked together it was unification and the only why of freeing everybody is different put it working together against forces like fascism or other totalitarian movements and something's happened to that that that the memory of what will too has been captured by people who use it for other purposes of national pride and exclusiveness that victory means our victory or if we lost the war it meant terrible things to our nation that have have to now maybe. be restored hold that thought we're going to go to

a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on world war two stay with r.t. . join me every thursday on the alex simon chill and i'll be speaking to guest of the world of politics sports business i'm showbusiness i'll see you then. you know world of big part of. lot and conspiracies it's time to wake up to dig deeper to hit the stories that mainstream media refuses to tell more than ever we need to be smarter we need to stop slamming the door on the back and shouting past each other it's time for critical thinking it's time to fight for the

middle for the troops the time is now for watching closely watching the hawks. this is a pretty this sort of total war but suppose it's just bush but it's. only. a minute. that it was my job of the. losing is it's a feeling up all of the good of the team you know that all you want to go to will get me on the mountain at the last it's a. bad feeling you'll know paul. well it was pretty good growing it was a room full of coaches there too which could go along with the done long ago but i come. here to your room if you're going to be your own kid you'll see a storm in the lead here so my look go from mood submersion to doing the clue trick

of croakers smirk. when lawmakers manufactured him sentenced him to public wells. when the room in closest to protect themselves. when the financial merry go round lifts and be the one percent of. the time we can all middle of the room signals. from the real news group. that's good first but it's

survival guide book stacie just like all the stores simply. research says you should still there are you going to get back home after. all it's no good says a repatriation scheme to forget the rest a souvenir. bill of the seventy year old skies record. welcome back to crossfire where all things considered i'm peter lavelle remind you we're discussing world war two. ok let me go back to. a point that you mentioned before we went to the break oh this is the in history in memory of the second world war can be used to unify and it also can be used to divide in the in the case of ukraine it is creating divisions and in a way and i think in a very. poorly thought out way is creating an solidifying

a national identity around an ideology was close to if not fascistic the whole point of the great effort during the second world war or yes the whole issue of victory and defeat gets developed in people's minds in a particular way and they forget the ideas and their ideology and they remember humiliation they want national pride national reassertion and they look to whoever looks like they're going to promise it and as we know one of the great selling points if you like the u.s.p. of fascism is it says it will make you great again and that usually is not a zero you know it's a zero sum game if we're great the people have to be less great and that can can trump if i can use that word a lot of other considerations and is a basic common denominator that will appeal to people particularly if you have the

radical center that is in a freefall ok it opens the door to that type of thing here you know it's stay with you crane here i mean what's interesting in ukraine is that you have been eastern ukraine they have the same perception in memory of the second world war as russians do but in western ukraine you have a very different view it was considered of defeat. a national humiliation and it's a way to bring people together at least in the west the president of pushing co found out it doesn't work very well he found out the hard way that going down that path doesn't work. what is the appeal of that i mean i think martin is right i mean in times of trouble people want to look at something they make energizes them is the right way to do well i think with. came apart there was a huge incentive to develop new national identities to replace the soviet and the problem is when you develop national identities you tend to look here towards

common victories or common humiliation and i think. to get a designated enemy enemy definitely your your other so i think for a lot of the former soviet republics there was an incentive to to see their national identity perhaps in opposition to russia to revive some very ugly elements in ukraine and i think where the ukraine. issue went very bad was kind of aligned the ethno nationalist with the west to some extent because in the one nine ninety s we began to create a europe without russia so we had certain incentives to support this ethyl nationalist groups so suddenly this ethyl nationals nationalist groups in ukraine who was saying oh russia is the enemy we have to cleanse the russian language culture. some empirical relic then effectively they become our ukraine is this is what what what we are doing to some extent developing this russia with europe without russia and there creating

a ukraine without russia also so we've allowed ourselves with yes very unsavory people and indeed when you see the house of battalion you know with their s.s. spraycan and their helmets this is the same people that the nazis force in their lives to say much about it does it or is that just a freedom of expression issue. i mean i believe that makes me furious makes me fear yeah i think i'll use on the right to your current regime isn't yes yes politically i'm from up on i actually so it's not surprising but these one thing buffett there's a lot of discord in western countries about some of the stuff that's actually going on in ukraine i think you know a little should be more than disquiet ok ok let's talk about revisionism because i mean you know there is a there is an effort to to diminish the soviet war effort i think you know i lived

in poland for many years before i lived in russia and the removing war memorials. from those things you know that's kind of moving into this secret area ok. when you win so be it more and more war memorials like in hungary or six hundred thousand soviet troops died liberating hungary and then there is a debate if there should be memorials to them i don't think there should be a debate here there's got to be a way to balance the need that the remembering those that had fallen and doesn't have to be ideologically driven i'm a very conservative person i don't really have anything to do with communism i studied it and i don't believe in it and i don't think it's actually a very good idea but i do recognise the sacrifice. monuments don't they often are politically charged but they don't have to be if they iconography is chosen carefully of course some of those. monuments have the the iconography

of the regime which you could see people might take exception to but you can remove that and retain the spirit there's a very moving little war memorial to the sort in london next to the imperial war museum that puts across its message very clearly and how much we owed to the soviet days that can be done in any place and it's helpful it's bonding to think that there was a show. soccer for us and that actually very large numbers of ordinary soviet soldiers from every ethnicity in the u.s.s.r. gave their lives as part of the liberation struggle but you know there is a bit of resistance in most nations to celebrating other people who've liberated them here and we don't like that feeling i think there are go and we should have somebody from france on the panel quite that have been moments in the past when there has been a certain amount of resistance to the idea that we asked them continually to say thank you for what we did i think the pretty sure

a bit resentful if americans say look we saved you in the in the war so i don't think it's just connection to the response to i think it was and you may be wrong here i think it was last year or the year before because there was a boycott western boycott of the parade here in moscow which is a very important event so a number of dignitaries. decided they weren't going to come and i think it was some of the sailors did. sent aid to murmansk there they were they were asked to take those dignitaries seat so they were on the on the platform there behind the russian dignitaries were president putin and you had these elderly gentleman who were seamen that kept the lifeline going and i thought i really loved that because it goes back to my really deep seated feeling it's about this sacrifice people made not about governments i mean i'm sure churchill and stalin comrades in arms during the second world is a great read and i will read it but the every day history of people of the home

front. and fighting the fighting on the real frontier those are very very moving as well i was a very moving event in. two years ago celebrating the anniversary of the first russian consulate and they have a beautiful moment to the sailors to three thousand men who lost their lives on that so the appreciation there from the people particularly. and six veterans made made the journey they're all in the ninety's now but they made it. in the white berets that represent the arctic and princess anne was there as well for the wreath laying ceremony so that was very very moving the sense of what the way that the alliance of ordinary people sacrificing their lives a long way from home for all this can be commemorated and it was it was a bonding moment had to go it was full of british american and russian flags and the whole city was celebrating it was it was a wonderful occasion it's how we're like putting reality on pause just for

a few minutes and it's ok it was a people's war was a popular war and that's the most important dimension of it at the same time the war is a very complex historical phenomenon ok now my view is you know is the. assessment of the soviet role and contribution that war is of. was a very positive one but there's a lot of stuff that went on in that world which wasn't supposed to you know it's not a black and white issue so so so it's not surprising that there are different historical memories of the world because they focus on on different aspects of people maybe aspects that that we wouldn't we would. like but that but the but there's never less that that i don't agree with you absolutely and you're an expert on i know that my point is and referencing what martin had to say is when you when you bring it down to the individual level then it's easier for for an audience or. citizens to understand that because you're right it's very complex even what

among alwis the real lot of complex issues to be resolved so you can't avoid the politics. you know that i got because if you want to contest these revisionist you views you have to do it on a serious historical and political basis you can't just keep saying a lot of the people who are in the you know this point at that want that won't be affected when you go for. i think it's very important to keep in mind that you have this pluralism of memory from the war because yes we see ideology tends to conform everything down to one narrative and often in norway i feel like we it's a good example because norway was occupied during the war by nazi germany and the red army actually entered into the north of the country the liberated the country and taking mass casualties and after liberating the north of norway they buried their dead and they went home so so it's in the north to still have memories or not

fond of it's not a great time brooke but they have good very good memories of russia we never had any conflicts with them at least not direct conflict but because we join nato also the couple who go to absorb the narrative of the poles so all you have to decide which may be liberated europe but they're never there would never leave so they're just they're conquering they're not liberators and i think that this causes a split within the we even when we try to have a multitude of historical memories but again and the north it's almost drowned out because it doesn't fit the broader ideology that you know the russians are coming for us and this is where our common you know western identity some extent originated leave the last we're forty seven of us we're going to you are going to say ok i think if jeff was right that politics has to be confronted but when the lessons of the politics is that when it came down to it countries are very different backgrounds got on together in a common cause and i think we can remember that and maybe we should remember that

a bit more about the second world war that we came together nationally as peoples but also as leaders together. it would be a good idea of people start boycotting the parade ok and i want to plug the book again churchill and stalin comrades in arms during the second world war jeffrey that's all the time we have many thanks to my guest here in moscow and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next. remember cross topples.

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