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we approach this year's anniversary of allied victory in world war two crosstalk examines what it means for the world to. hello and welcome to cross top for all things considered. war in memory today marks the seventy fourth anniversary of victory over fascism in europe the end of that conflict created the modern world order and it still does. cross talking world war two i'm joined by my guest here in moscow and he is

a professor at the higher school of economics as well as author of russia's geo economic strategy for a greater eurasia we also have geoffrey robertson he's a senior fellow at the helsinki for exam studies and a member of the royal irish academy and we have martin folley he is a senior lecturer in international history at yale university. they are gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want i always appreciate before we get started i want to congratulate martin and jeffrey on their new book here churchill and stalin comrades in arms during the second world war. i work in television i love documentaries i love films and i love history and in one thousand nine hundred ninety three the b.b.c. came out with a documentary series the world war one hundred seventy three nine hundred seventy six. it's seminal documentary of that conflict could that could documentary like that be made today and put on netflix and would people watch it and what would it look like. it was a fantastic documentary series anyone is interested in history

a second world war should watch should watch that series ok so you said it comes out in the ninety seventies which is a period of they talked enough and you know the politics of that period are reflected in the documentary itself the interesting thing is though only a small number of episodes are actually devoted to the soviet jumping from two to maybe three or something but those particular. huge kind of impact of a huge kind of emotional resonance could it be i think probably if the right people were to make it a question to my mind these how would it be received how would it be received politically and how would it be received in the popular culture i would expect the politically he would be resisted and criticized for obvious reasons but a touch of pop culture i think people have signed on to put up some kind of impact as it had in the one nine hundred seventy when you think about that because in in popular culture at least in the western i mean american so i can speak best about

the united states you know saving private ryan we had ken burns documentary series but it's very very american centric but i guess we should expect that here but this was a world war and the soviet war effort is absolutely critical. do western audiences really know that i mean in moscow here this is the victory day it's a big day in this country in the post soviet space it's not the case in the u.k. or the united states i think a certain times they've known it but it gets forgotten what. well i think in britain we're a little obsessed about our own role in the second world war which is a very important event for us partly because of what's happened to princeton since the second world war so that it's the landmark of the moment when britain stood alone and that's part of our national identity should be very proud of but the problem with being proud of standing alone is you tend to perhaps downplay the role

of those who stood alongside you and i think that that's one of the problems the british have of conceiving affection perhaps for any of our allies even perhaps for the americans who have always been somewhat ambiguous about your own want to save the empire not just a britain ok and that was a big tension between roosevelt and churchill i mean it's really remarkable that roosevelt never went to the u.k. during the war he wouldn't do that you know he wouldn't he kept saying that he would have a tendency to say all sorts of things to please his audience with no intention of actually following through whereas of course he did visit the soviet union. and was very keen to do so because he he felt the future he wasn't called a traitor like donald trump is called a traitor you know glenn you're from the continent itself what is victory dane. well i think it's less focus in continental western europe than i would here but

obviously they're both pointing out history as sort of like a looter functions one is to remember history and ideally learning from it but the second is also to develop your own national identity fit into the contemporary ideologies which is why obviously would be easier to make a more historical accurate documentary in the seventy's while today because there was a cold war because there was. a transatlantic community there but also at the time trying to find common cause i think now it would be very. different because if we would try to have a very historical accurate portrayal of the second world war we would have to of course pay tribute to the russians who bore the main brunt of effectively a defeated nazi germany but that would defeat the second. purpose of. telling history which would be would essentially be seen as empathizing too much

you know cheering or even being almost treasonous in terms of applauding russia you know but to me the irony is there of course is that there was an ideological struggle it wasn't that it was going to put a pause obviously to defeat fascism in europe but. it it shows what could be done if you had the political will i mean you don't have to like your your partners ok you don't have to be friends with them you have a common goal and i think this is what's missed since the end of the cold war is because there are real important international issues that need to be addressed but if you. porton countries like the united states and russia are not working together then it's counterproductive here and it's because they don't want to recognize historical facts they got along during the second world war why can't they do that today absolutely the most important thing about the second world war from the point of view is that it was a common struggle it was a common colds ok there were lots of social political cultural differences between

the parties in the ground laws but are also a lot of little things in common and there was some common war rooms as well and the effect of this coalition coalition the ground laws it was hugely successful. the styling for it was the most successful military political military coalition history i tend to group them so yes i would agree what you're saying is that. if they could be unity cooperation collaboration and mutual understanding then there's no reason in principle what we can have the same thing now if you'll. just tell you my view. purely political obstacles mainly i have to say mainly on the west and saw it rather than them so it's really the lack of political will that's worth what it gets down to i think so but it's interesting that the period when that documentary was made the end of ninety six beginning ninety seven two is that there be quite a lot of profound shocks in the one nine hundred sixty s. that make people think a bit more about the danger of confrontation cuban missile crisis is

a perfect example so they're looking i think they were receptive to think about the time when we worked together in this great cause and that whole film comes out of the sense that we were you all in this together so so people are certain remembering the feeling and that it's great a great generation is i think it is what lies in the u.k. as it does in the united states of course that documentary is driven by the recollections of people who were there are no historians it yes and if you were to make it again i would say count the talking heads let's hear from the people who were there which would be difficult now but that's what they they're all still there you know i had never thought about what made it so charming because it was so authentic yet you know speaking of beauty i mean you know the struggle you know when we enter the cold war. it's still the allied coalition and that's what kept it going when we then we went into the ideological complicated europe doesn't have

that kind it doesn't have a moment of unity right now i mean i don't see you know a great moment that brought the entire continent together because what we see now is a rise of bright green groups and kind of you know away at some of the more nasty elements of the second world war we can talk about what's going on in ukraine for example with the they return of step and bend and the rise of neo fascist groups and ideologies. i think that. disruption our. you're a piece mostly from the right of right wing populist but you also have left wing talk populists of course so there's more about the center. and you have all. this alternative you're always the understatement i don't want. a lot more division i guess a lot of the source for our unity across europe collapse so this is not necessarily

a good thing for russia because russia tends to be a bit of a unifier if things go wrong we can always point to russia and unity against our common other serious i guess the incentive not to talk up the russian threat as we have this disunity in the west i think it doesn't work jeff it isn't work i don't see that it works ok just. think there was a moment of unity in europe when that moment was off the collapse of the soviet union collapsed communism grow in the immediate post soviet post cold war era ninety's when you have to magically translate into hostility towards russia about just dust all point you know you know so you had this expansion of the you had this expansion ninety good efforts to actually unify the count of the continent so that was the moment of unity but of course it was at the expense of russia and what should have happened in ninety nine she didn't we're paying the price now is the shit you're russia should have been integrated into that unifying moment you said

it was kept a distance not you treated treated very badly it was really it was really interesting doing the during the cold war they had this concept of captive nations . under communism and i got myself into a huge huge trouble for saying but russia was a captive nation as well that really disturbed people ok because what i'm what i'm saying is that that was an ideological conflict it wasn't with the people yes yes that's right. it's interesting since we talk about remembering the second world war the way to say i remember walking you through the. for this in that there are all those who argue that the lessons of the war was work together that was unification and the only why of freeing of. working together against forces like fascism or other totalitarian movements and something's happened to that the memory of what will too has been captured by people who use it for other purposes of

national pride and exclusiveness that victory means our victory or if we lost the war it meant terrible things to our nation that have have to now. be restored hold that thought we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on world war two stay with r.t. .

you're relying on data that is not very well to find like the g.d.p. number of the gross domestic product number is notorious for being very pale and it doesn't really give a picture that you can draw any minute implosions from a that's true of almost every number that's produced by the government because it behooves them to cook. all the data because the data controls the algorithms and the index. when the first century. elements or the end of the moment or it isn't a people would like to interact which is happening to individuals are using their

judges through facebook through to another interacting with the good think it's going to. from those seeing the results. welcome back to crossfire all things considered i'm peter lavelle reminder we're discussing world war two. ok let me go back to a point that you mentioned before we went to the break oh this is the in history in memory of the second world war can be used to unify and it also can be used to define divine in the in the case of ukraine it is creating divisions and in a way and i think in a very. poorly thought out way is creating an solidifying a national identity around an ideology was close to if not fascistic the whole

point of the great effort during the second world war well yes the whole issue of victory and defeat gets developed in people's minds in a particular way and they forget the ideas and their ideology and they remember humiliation they want national pride national reassertion and they look to whoever looks like they're going to promise it and as we know one of the great selling points if you like the u.s. pay of fascism is it's. says it will make you great again and that usually is not a zero zero sum game if we're great people have to be less great and that can. trump that work a lot of other considerations and is a basic common denominator that will appeal to people particularly if you have the radical center that is in freefall ok it opens the door to that type of thing here

it's stay with you crane here i mean what's interesting in ukraine is that you have been eastern ukraine they have the same perception in memory of the second world war is russians do but in western ukraine you have a very different view it was considered a defeat. in national humiliation and it's a way to bring people together at least in the west the president of pushing call found out it doesn't work very well he found out the hard way that going down that path doesn't work. what is the appeal of that i mean i think martin is right i mean in times of trouble people want to look at something they get make energizes them is this the right way to do well i think with. kim parts there was huge incentive to develop new national identities to replace the soviet now the problem is when you develop national identities you tend to look towards common victories or common humiliation and i think. to get

a designated enemy enemy definitely your your other so i think for a lot of the former soviet republics there was an incentive to to see their national identity perhaps in opposition to russia so that the revived some very ugly elements in ukraine i think were the ukraine. issue went very bad was kind of aligned the ethno nationalist with the west to some extent because in the one nine ninety s we began to create a europe without russia so we had certain incentives to support this ethyl nationalist groups so suddenly this ethyl nationals nationalist group. in the ukraine who is saying oh russia is the enemy we have to cleanse the russian language culture. some empirical relic then effectively they become our ukraine is this is what what we are doing to some extent developing this russia with europe without russia and there creating a ukraine without russia also so yes allied ourself with yes very unsavory

people and indeed when you see that. with their. spread and their helmets this is the same people that the nazis force here with the backing in their lives to say much about it does it or is that just a freedom of expression issue. i mean i believe it makes me furious it makes me fear you know i think. on the right to your car you know yes you know just politically i'm from up on i actually so it's not surprising but these one thing buffy there's a lot of discord in western countries about some of the stuff that's actually going on that. i think you know a little should be more than disquiet ok ok you know it's not about revisionism because really you know there's an effort to to diminish the soviet war effort i think you know i lived in poland for many years before i lived in russia and the removing war memorials. from those things you know that's kind of moving into this

secret area ok. so be it more war memorials like in hungary with six hundred thousand so be it troops died liberating hungary and then there is a debate if there should be memorials to them i don't think there should be a debate here there's got to be a way to balance the need that the remembering those that had fallen in the desert have to be ideologically driven i'm a very conservative person i don't really have anything to do with communism i studied it. i don't believe in it and i don't think it's actually a very good idea but i do recognize the sacrifice is a. monument stone they often are politically charged but they don't have to be if the iconography is chosen carefully of course some of those. monuments have the the iconography of the regime which you could see people might take exception to but you can remove that and retain the spirit there's

a very moving little war memorial to the sort we did in london next to the imperial war museum that puts across its message very clearly and how much we owed to the sort. that can be done in any place and it's helpful it's bonding to think that there was a shared sacrifice and that actually very large numbers of ordinary soviet soldiers from every ethnicity in the u.s.s.r. gave their lives as part of the liberation struggle but you know there is a bit of resistance in most nations to celebrating other people who've liberated them here and we don't like that feeling i think there are going to have somebody from france on the panel well quite there have been moments in the past when there has been a certain amount of resistance to the idea that we ask them continually to say thank you for what we did i think the british are a bit resentful if americans say look we saved you in the in the war so i don't think it's just in connection to the response to to think it was and you may be

wrong here i think it was last year or the year before because there was a boycott western boycott of the parade here in moscow which is a very important event so a number of dignitaries. decided they weren't going to come and i think it was some of the sailors did. sent to murmansk there they were they were asked to take those dignitaries seats where they were on the on the platform there behind the russian dignitaries from president putin and you had these elderly gentleman who are. who were seamen that kept the lifeline going and i thought i really loved that because it goes back to my really deep seated feeling it's about the sacrifice people made not about governments i mean i'm sure churchill and stalin comrades in arms during the second world is a great read and i will read it but the every day history of people of the home front. and fighting the fighting on the real frontier those are very very moving as

well i was a very moving event in. two years ago celebrating the anniversary of the first russian consulate and they have a beautiful moment to the site as to three thousand men who lost their lives on that so the appreciation there from the people particularly. people and six veterans made made the journey they're all in the ninety's now but they made it with that metals and the white berets that represent the arctic and princess anne was there as well for the wreath laying ceremony so that was very very moving the sense of what the way that the alliance of ordinary people sacrificing their lives a long way from home for all this can be commemorated and it was it was a bonding moment had to go it was full of british american and russian flags and the whole city was celebrating it was it was a wonderful occasion it's how we should put it reality on pause just for a few minutes and it's ok well it wasn't people who were popular war and that's the

most important dimension of it at the same time second world war is a very complex historical phenomenon ok now my view is you know is the. assessment of the soviet role and contribution that war is of. because of this very positive one but there's a lot of stuff that went on in that world which wasn't supposed you know it's not a black and white issue so so so it's not surprising that there are different historical memories of people because like they focus on different aspects of people maybe aspects that that we wouldn't we would. like but that but the but there's never less that was. group with you absolutely and you're an expert on i know that my point is and referencing what martin had to say is when you when you bring it down to the individual level then it's easier for an audience or. citizens to understand that because you're right it's very complex even allies there were lot of complex issues to be resolved so you can avoid the

politics. you know that i got if you want to contest these revisionist you views you have to do it on a serious historical and political basis you can't just keep a lot of the people's will and that you know the point that want that won't be affected with you before you know i was going to i think it's very important to keep in mind that you have this pluralism of memory from the war because yes we see ideology tends to conform everything down to one narrative and often in norway i feel like we it's a good example because norway was occupied during the war by nazi germany and the red army actually entered into the north of the country they liberated the country and taking mass casualties and after liberating the north of norway a day buried their dead and they went home so so it's in the north to still have memories or not fond of it's not a great time but but they have good very good memories of russia we never had any

conflicts with them at least not direct conflict but because we join nato also the couple began to absorb the narrative of the poles so all you have the soviets maybe liberated europe but they never they would never leave so they're just they're conquering they're not liberators and i think that this causes a split within the we even when we try to have a multitude of historical memories but again and the north it's almost drowned out because it doesn't fit the broader ideology that you know the russians are coming for us and this is where our common you know western identity some extent the region. if they last we're forty seconds us we're going to you know what i'm going to say ok i think jeff jeff was right that the politics asked us to be confronted but one of the lessons of the politics is that when it came down to it countries are very different backgrounds go home together in a calm course and i think we can we can remember that maybe we should remember that a bit more about the second world war that we trying to get a national these peoples but also those leaders together and it would be

a good idea of people stop boycotting the parade ok and i want to plug the book again churchill and stalin comrades in arms around the second world war martin jeffrey that's all the time we have many thanks to my guests here in moscow and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember cross topples. join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and i'll be speaking to guests of the world of politics sports business i'm showbusiness i'll see that. politicians do something to. put themselves on the line they did accept the reject

. so when you want to be president. some want to. have to go right to the press this is like the full three of them all can't be good . i'm interested always in the waters in the house. in twenty four to you know bloody revolution to. the demonstrations going from being relatively peaceful political protests to be creasing the violent revolution is always spontaneous or is it. you know we're here i mean you are liz put in the new bill is that on the schooling you go to the former ukrainian president recalls the events of twenty four g. and. those who took. you've invested over five billion dollars to assist ukraine in these and other goals that will ensure a secure and prosperous and democratic. iraq

. this is passing around the world and covering the world of business and finance and the empire. i'm pissed and i'm daniel bruno in washington we're glad you're on board today we have on the world of planes trains and automobiles literally the wings controversy has plagued the company's profits as wyvil air bus managed to get a wake up on the ailing giant party correspondent alex mahila which gives us a bird's eye view of the current state of aerial earnings plus has once again very

often to a new venture but well there are no ral go up in flames lauren fix the car coach gets behind the wheel and fears of food trouble and finally although railways me seem rustic new advances are being made on the tracks are to producer brenda bore brings us the latest from the relaxed conference on capitol hill all of that directly ahead but first we have some headlines let's go. the u.s. trying to trade war drama continues after president incendiary tweet over the weekend many are speculating on whether or not it was a real crime. or simply a negotiating tactic to speed up talks and squeeze out a few more concessions after a volatile trading session on monday worldwide fears appear to be waning as it became clear that full size are still talking the shanghai composite and the homes that were both posted gains in overnight trading that sigh of relief was short lived however as president trump's top advisers are now accusing china of really negative.