the royal irish academy and we have martin folly he is a senior lecturer in international history at yale university are gentlemen cross-talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want i always appreciate before we get started i want to congratulate martin and jeffrey on their new book here churchill and stalin comrades in arms during the second world war. i work in television i love documentaries i love films and i love history and in one thousand nine hundred ninety three the b.b.c. came out with a documentary series the world war one hundred seventy three nine hundred seventy six. it's seminal documentary about conflict could that could documentary like that be made today and put on netflix and would people watch it and what would it look like. the world was a fantastic documentary series anyone is interested in history should watch should watch that series ok so you said it comes out in the ninety's seventy's which is a period of they don't think enough and you know the politics of that period are

reflected in the documentary itself the interesting thing is though only a small number of episodes are actually devoted to the soffit jumping from two to maybe three or something but those particular. huge kind of impact of a huge kind of emotional resonance could it be i think probably if the right people were to make it the question to my mind is how would it be received how would it be received politically and how would it be received in popular culture i would expect the politically he would be resisted and criticized for obvious reasons but a touch of pop culture i think people have signed on to could have some kind of the impact as it had in the one nine hundred seventy when you think about that because in in popular culture at least in the western i mean american so i can speak best about the united states you know saving private ryan we had ken burns documentary series but it's very very american centric but i guess we should expect that here but this was. a world war and the soviet war effort is absolutely critical

do western audiences really know that i mean in moscow here this is the victory day it's a big day in this country in the post soviet space it's not the case in the u.k. or the united states i think a certain times they've known it but it gets forgotten what. well i think in britain we're a little obsessed about our own role in the second world war which is a very important event for us partly because of what's happened to princeton since the second world war so that it's the landmark of the moment when britain stood alone and that's part of our national identity should be very proud of but the problem with being proud of standing alone is you tend to perhaps downplay the role of those who stood alongside you and i think that that's one of the problems the british have of conceiving affection perhaps for any of our allies even perhaps for the americans who we've always been somewhat have been ok and that was

a big tension between roosevelt and churchill it's really remarkable that roosevelt never went to the u.k. during the war he wouldn't do that you know he wouldn't he kept saying that he would have a tendency to say all sorts of things to please his audience with no intention of actually following through whereas of course he did visit the soviet union. and was very keen to do so because he he felt the future but he wasn't called a traitor like donald trump is called a traitor you know glenn you're from the continent itself what is victory dane. well i think it's less focus in continental western europe than i would here but obviously they're both pointing out history as sort of function as one is to remember history and ideally learning from it but the second is also to develop your own national identities fit into the contemporary ideologies which is why

obviously would be easier to make a more historical accurate documentary in the seventy's while today because there was a cold war because there was. a transatlantic community there but also at the time trying to find common cause i think now it would be very different because if we would try to have a very historical accurate portrayal of the second. more we would have to of course pay tribute to the russians who bore the main brunt of effectively a defeated nazi germany but that would defeat the second. purpose of. telling history which would be able to sensibly be seen as empathizing too much you know cheering or even being almost treasonous in terms of applauding russia you know so but to me the irony is there of course is that there was an ideological struggle it wasn't that it was going to put a pause obviously to to to defeat fascism in europe but. it it shows what could be

done if you had the political will i mean you don't have to like your your partners ok you don't have to be friends with them you have a common goal and i think this is what's missed since the end of the cold war is because there are real important international issues that need to be addressed but if you. porton countries like the united states and russia are not working together then it's counterproductive here and it's because they don't want to recognize historical facts they got along during the second world war why can't they do that today absolutely the most important thing about the second world war from the point of view is that it was a common struggle it was a common colds ok there were lots of social political cultural differences between the parties in the ground laws but are also a lot of little things in common and then there was some common war aims as well and the effect of this coalition coalition the ground laws it was hugely successful yeah i mean. it was the most successful millett political military coalition

history i tend to agree yes i would agree what you are saying is that. if they could be unity cooperation collaboration and mutual understanding then there's no reason in principle what we can have the same thing now the obstacles to just a month ago purely political obstacles mainly i have to say mainly on the west and so is. rather than them so it's really the lack of political will that's worth what it gets down to i think so but it's interesting that the period when that documentary was made end of ninety six beginning ninety seven two is that there be quite a lot of profound shocks in the one nine hundred sixty s. that make people think a bit more about the danger of confrontation cuban missile crisis is a perfect example so they're looking i think they were receptive to think about the time when we worked together in this great cause and that whole film comes out of the sense that we were you all in this together so so people for

a certain age remembering the feeling that it's great to a great generation is that i think it is what lies in the u.k. as it does in the united states of course that documentary is driven by the recollections of people who were there and no historians it yes and if you were to make it again i would say count the talking heads let's hear from the people who were there which would be difficult now but that's what they they're all still there you know i had never thought about that that's what made it so charming because it was so authentic yet you know speaking of unity i mean you know the struggle you know when we entered the cold war. it's still the allied coalition and that's what kept it going when we then we went into the ideological complicated europe doesn't have that kind it doesn't have a moment of unity right now i mean i don't see you know a great moment that brought the entire continent gather because what we see now is a rise of bright wing groups and kind of you know or way some of the more nasty

elements of the second world war we can talk about what's going on in ukraine for example with the they were turned step and bend and the rise of neo fascist groups and ideologies. i think that the disruption in europe is mostly from the rights of right wing populist to you also have. populists of course there's more about. the center house. and you have this video this alternative you're always the understatement i don't want. a lot more division i guess a lot of the source for our unity across europe collapse this is not necessarily a good thing for russia because russia tends to be a bit of a unifier if things go wrong we can always point to russia and unity against our common other a serious i guess incentive now to talk up the russian threat as we have this

disunity in the west i think it doesn't work jeff it isn't work i don't see that it works ok i'm just going there i actually think there was a moment of unity in europe and that moment was off the collapse of the soviet collapse of communism in the immediate post soviet post cold war era the moment when you have to magically translate into hostility towards russia about just told point you know you know so you had to see expansion of the you had this expansion ninety hurt efforts to actually unify the count of the continent so that was the moment of unity but of course it was at the expense of russia and what should have happened in one nine hundred ninety s. but didn't we're paying the price now is the shit you're russia should have been integrated into that unifying moment you said it was kept a distance not you treated treated very badly it was it was really interesting during the during the cold war you had this concept of captive nations. under communism and i got myself into a huge huge trouble for saying but russia was

a captive nation as well that it's really disturbed people ok because what i'm what i'm saying is that that was an ideological conflict it wasn't with the people yes yes that's right. it's interesting since we talk about remembering the second world war the way to remember walking to use for different purposes in there all those who all the lessons of the war was. work together it was unification and the only why of freeing it for putting working together against forces like fascism or other totalitarian movements and something's happened to that that the memory of what will too has been captured by people who use it for other purposes of national pride and exclusiveness that victory means our victory if we lost the war it meant terrible things to our nation that have have to now. be restored hold that thought we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on world war

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welcome back to cross talk where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle reminder we're discussing world war two. ok let me go back to a point that you mentioned before we went to the break oh this is the in. history and memory of the second world war can be used to unify and it also can be used to divide in the in the case of ukraine it is creating divisions and in a way and i think in a very. poorly thought out way is creating an solidifying a national identity around an ideology was close to if not fascistic the whole point of the great effort during the second world war or yes the whole issue of victory and defeat gets developed in people's minds in a particular way and they forget the ideas and their ideology and they remember

humiliation they want national pride national reassertion and they look to whoever looks like they're going to promise it and as we know one of the great selling points if you like the u.s.p. of fascism is it says it will make you great again and that usually is not a zero you know it's a zero sum game if we're great people have to be less great and that can. trump has that worked a lot of other considerations and is a basic common denominator that will appeal to people particularly if you have the radical center that is in a freefall ok it opens the door to that type of thing here you know it's still with you crane here i mean what's interesting in ukraine is that you have been eastern ukraine they have the same perception in memory of the second world war as russians do but in western ukraine you have a very different view it was considered

a defeat. and national humiliation and it's a way to bring people together at least in the west the president of pushing call found out it doesn't work very well he found out the hard way that going down that path doesn't work. what is the appeal of that i mean i think martin is right i mean we in times of trouble people want to look to something get make the energizes them . is this the right way to do well i think with. came apart there was a huge incentive to develop new national identities to replace the soviet now the problem is when you develop national identities you tend to look here towards common victories or common humiliation and i think i'll call it or get a designated enemy enemy definitely or your other so i think for a lot of the former soviet republics there was an incentive to to see their national identity perhaps in opposition to russia to revive some very ugly elements in ukraine and i think where the ukraine. issue went very bad was kind of aligned

the ethno nationalist with the west to some extent because we were in the one nine ninety s we began to create a europe without russia so we had certain incentives to support this ethyl nationalist groups so suddenly this ethyl nationals nationalist groups in ukraine who was saying oh russia is the enemy we have to cleanse the russian language culture. some empirical relic then effectively they become our ukraine is this is what what what we are doing to some extent developing this russia with europe without russia and there creating a ukraine without russia also so yes allied ourself with yes very unsavory people and indeed when you see the house of battalion here with their s.s. spraycan and their helmets this is the same people that the nazis force here with no money in the looters to say much about it does it or is that just a freedom of expression issue. i mean i believe it makes me furious makes me

fear you know i think. on the right you grow your business you know politically. from up on it's not surprising but these one thing buffy there's a lot of discord in western countries about some of the stuff that's actually going on in. you know a little should be more than disquiet ok ok you know it's not about revisionism because i mean you know there is a there is an effort to to diminish the soviet war effort i think you know i lived in poland for many years before i lived in russia and the removing war memorials. from those things you know that's kind of moving into this secret area ok. when you were in the soviet more more war memorials like in hungary with six hundred thousand soviet troops died liberating hungary and then there is

a debate if there should be memorials to them i don't think there should be a debate here there's got to be a way to to balance the need that the the remembering those that had fallen in the doesn't have to be ideologically driven i'm a very conservative person i don't really have anything to do with communism i studied it and i don't believe in it and i don't think it's actually a very good idea but i do recognise the sacrifice. monuments don't they often are politically charged but they don't have to be if they iconography is chosen carefully of course some of those. monuments have the the iconography of the regime which you could see people might take exception to but you can remove that and retain the spirit there's a very moving little war memorial to the sort in london next to the imperial war museum that puts across its message very clearly and how much we owed to the soviet . that can be done in any place and it's helpful it's bonding to think that there

was a shared sacrifice and that actually very large numbers of ordinary soviet soldiers from every ethnicity in the u.s.s.r. gave their lives as part of the liberation struggle but you know there is a bit of resistance in most nations to celebrating other people who've liberated them here and we don't like that feeling i think there are going to. have somebody from france on the panel will quote that have been moments in the past when there has been a certain amount of resistance to the idea that we are asked them continually to say thank you for what we did i think that pretty sure a bit resentful if americans say look we saved you in the in the war so i don't think it's just connection to the response to i think it was and you may be wrong here i think it was last year or the year before because there was a boycott western boycott of the parade here in moscow which is a very important event so a number of dignitaries. decided they weren't going to come and i think it was some

of the sailors did. sent aid to murmansk there they were they were asked to take those dignitaries seats so they were on the on the platform there behind the russian dignitaries from president putin and you had these elderly gentleman who were seamen that came up the life line going on and i thought i really loved that because it goes back to my really deep seated feeling it's about the sacrifice people made not about governments i mean i'm sure churchill and stalin comrades in arms during the second world is a great read and i will read it but the every day history of people of the home front in the end fighting the fighting on the real frontier those are very very moving as well i was a very moving event in. two years ago celebrating the anniversary of the first russian consulate and they have a beautiful moment to the sailors to three thousand men who lost their lives on that so the appreciation there from the people particularly. those tangible and six

veterans may made the journey they're all in their ninety's now but they made it with that metals and the white berets that represent the arctic and princess anne was there as well for the wreath laying ceremony so that was very very moving the sense of what the way that the alliance of ordinary people sacrificing their lives a long way from home. yeah for all this can be commemorated and it was it was a bonding moment was full of british american and russian flags and the whole city was celebrating it was it was a wonderful occasion it's how we're like putting reality on pause just for a few minutes and it's ok it was people who were popular war and that's the most important dimension of it at the same time second world war is a very complex historical phenomenon ok now my view is you know my overall. assessment of the soviet role in contribution to war is of. it was a very positive one but there's

a lot of stuff that went on in that world which wasn't supposed to you know it's not a black and white issue so so so it's not surprising that there are different historical memories of people because they focus on different aspects of people maybe aspects that that we wouldn't we would. like but that but the but they've never left the group with you absolutely and you're an expert on i know that my point is and referencing what martin had to say is when you when you bring it down to the individual level then it's easier for for an audience or. citizens to understand that because you're right it's very complex even alwis the real lot of complex issues to be resolved so you can't avoid you know the politics . you know that i got if you want to contest these revisionist you views you have to do it on a serious historical and political basis you can't just keep saying it was a people's war and that you know this point at that want that won't be a factor with you before you know i was going to i think it's very important to

keep in mind that you have this pluralism of memory from the war because. they all do tends to conform everything down to one narrative and often in norway i feel like we it's a good example because norway was occupied during the war by nazi germany and the red army actually entered. into the north of the country the liberated the country and taking mass casualties and after liberating the north of norway a day he buried their dead and they went home so so it's in the north to still have memories or not fond of it's not a great time but they have good very good memories of russia we never had any conflicts with them at least not direct conflict but because we join nato also the couple who go on to absorb the narrative of the poles so all you have to decide it's maybe liberated europe but they're never they would never leave so they're just they're conquering they're not liberators and i think that this causes

a split within the we even when we try to have a multitude of historical memories but again and the north it's almost drowned out because it doesn't fit the broader ideology that you know the russians are coming for us and this is where our common you know western identity some extent originated leave the last were forty seconds of us we're going to you are going to say ok i think jeff jeff was right that politics has to be confronted but when the lessons of the politics is that when it came down to it countries are very different backgrounds got on together in a common course and i think we can we can remember that maybe we should remember that a bit more about the second world war that we came together nationally as peoples but also as leaders together. it would be a good idea people start boycotting the parade ok and i want to plug the book again churchill and stalin comrades in arms around the second world war martin jeffrey that's all the time we have many thanks to my guest here in moscow and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t.

see you next time remember cross topples. this is a pretty the sort of. it's good. flooded. the money would be needed it was my go to the. moon is its appeal to supple of the good of the team yet that all laong solicitor going to the banana that is a liberal still it was definitely on the ball. enough but well it was pretty good way to lose a room kind of what you stand to which could go over them with the gun but i come. here to do you really do need your money you don't need you still i'm the lead here

so i'm i looked up from lewd subversion to doing the kluge your coconspirators some are going. to the currencies in freefall there is no gold standard and there's no way to reconcile this and that and the world's every other country is competing as a race to the bottom at the same time it's fair to say that there is now several countries that you could i think characterize as being on a war footing so the us by saying well we don't have a recession anymore and we don't have any any trade election to defend our currency value in any way they're opening the door in a big big way to extremely violent global conflict. dream agreed to pretty much almost remember that it was most of the family were

unemployed were concluded there wasn't it was bid you know much worse objectively today but there was an expectation that things were going to get better. there was a real sense of hope. there isn't today to do you see america where shape my the ten principles of concentration of wealth and power. reduced democracy attacks. engineer elections manufacture consent and other principles according to no i'm chomsky one set of rules for the rich opposite set of rules for . that's what happens when you put her into the hands of a narrow sector of will switch will is dedicated to increasing power for chills just as you'd expect one of the most influential intellectuals of our time speaks about the modern civilization of america.

after the previous stage of my career was over everyone wondered what i was going to do next that the ball different clubs on one hand it is logical to search the home field where everything is familiar on the other i wanted a new challenge and a fresh perspective i'm used to surprising people and i saw what the t.v. . i'm going to talk about football not the or else you can think i was going to go. by the way ways of that slide here.

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