iran partially suspends the two thousand and fifteen nuclear agreement and takes immediate from washington with another round of sanctions. france echoes the us with the threat of its own sanctions while other nations call on iran not to take aggressive steps. the vote count is underway in south africa and what is being seen as the biggest election there in decades as the incumbent ruling party looks set to hold power. and russia celebrates victory day you're looking at live pictures right here. the seventy fourth anniversary of the defeat of nazi

germany the ninth of may is mark each year by a military parade through central moscow and again live pictures right now of the last minute preparations in the heart of the capital you can see all the military gear in the hardware being inspected getting ready and everybody. getting ready to light up the streets and. make a day of it is our to international. and joins you next hour with a full news update and you will want to stay with our team for our live coverage of this year's victory day parade in moscow now just three hours away as you just saw that equipment getting ready for the parade itself but first cross-talk a look at how world war two has shaped the world of today.

hello and welcome to cross up where all things considered. war in memory today marks the seventy fourth anniversary of victory over fascism in europe the end of that conflict created the modern world order and it still does. cross talking world war two i'm joined by my guest here in moscow and he is a professor at the higher school of economics as well as author of russia's geo economic strategy for a greater eurasia we also have geoffrey robertson is a senior fellow at the helsinki collect for advanced studies and a member of the royal irish academy and we have martin folley he is a senior lecturer in international history at yale university are gentlemen cross-talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want i always appreciate before we get started i want to congratulate martin and jeffrey on their

new book here churchill and stalin comrades in arms during the second world war. i work in television i love documentaries i love films and i love history and in one nine hundred seventy three the b.b.c. came out with a documentary series the world war one nine hundred seventy three the one nine hundred seventy six. it's seminal documentary about conflict could that could documentary like that be made today and put on netflix and would people watch it and what would it look like. it was a fantastic documentary series anyone is interested in history a second world war should watch should watch that series ok so you said it comes out in the ninety seventies which is a period of detente you know the politics of that period are reflected in the documentary itself the interesting thing is the only a small number of episodes are actually devoted to the soviet jumping from two to well. maybe through something but those particular apps

a huge kind of impact on the huge kind of emotional resonance that we might i think probably if the right people were to make it a question to my mind these how would it be received how would it be received politically and how would it be received in the popular culture i would expect the politically he would be resisted and criticized for obvious reasons but a touch of pop culture i think people have signed on to could have some kind of impact as it had in the one nine hundred seventy when you think about that because in in popular culture at least in the western i mean american so i can speak best about the united states you know saving private ryan we had ken burns documentary series but it's very very american centric but i guess we should expect that here but this was a world war and the soviet war effort is absolutely critical do western audiences really know that i mean in moscow here this is the victory day it's

a big day in this country in the post soviet space it's not the case in the u.k. or the united states i think a certain times they've known it but it gets forgotten what. well i think in britain we're a little obsessed about our own role in the second world war which is a very important event for us partly because of what's happened to person since the second world war so that it's the landmark of the moment when britain stood alone and that's part of our national identity should be very proud of but the problem with being proud of standing alone is you tend to perhaps downplay the role of those who stood alongside you and i think that that's one of the problems the british have of conceiving affection perhaps for any of our allies even perhaps for the americans who have always been somewhat ambiguous about your own wanted to save the empire not just a britain ok and that was a big tension between roosevelt and churchill i mean it's really remarkable that

roosevelt never went to the u.k. during the war he wouldn't do that you know he wouldn't he kept saying that he would have a tendency to say all sorts of things to please his audience with no intention of actually following through whereas of course he did visit the soviet union. and was very keen to do so because he he felt the future he wasn't called a traitor like donald trump is called a traitor you know glenn you're from the continent itself what is victory dane. i think it's less focus in continental western europe than i would here but obviously they're both pointing out history as sort of function as one is to remember history and ideally learning from it but the second is also to develop your own national identities fit into the contemporary ideologies which is why obviously would be easier to make a more historical accurate documentary in the seventy's while today because there

was a cold war because there was. a transatlantic community there but also at the time trying to find common cause i think now it would be very. different because if we would try to have a very historical accurate portrayal of the second world war we would have to of course pay tribute to the russians who bore the main brunt of effectively a defeated nazi germany but that would defeat the second. purpose of. telling history which would be able to sensibly be seen as empathizing too much you know cheering or even being almost treasonous in terms of applauding russia you know but to me the irony is there of course is that there was an ideological struggle it wasn't that it was going to put a pause obviously to defeat fascism in europe but. it it shows what could be done if you had the political will i mean you don't have to like your your partners

ok you don't have to be friends with them you have a common goal and i think this is what's missed since the end of the cold war is because there are real important international issues that need to be addressed but if you. porton countries like the united states and russia are not working together then it's counterproductive here and it's because they don't want to recognize historical facts they got along during the second world war why can't they do that today absolutely the most important thing about the second world war from the point of view is that it was a common struggle it was a common colds ok there were lots of social political cultural differences between the parties in the ground laws but are also a lot of little things in common and there was some common war aims as well and therefore. this coalition sello coalition the ground laws it was hugely successful . the styling for it was the most successful millett political military coalition history i tend to group them so yes i would agree what you are saying is that. if

they could be unity cooperation collaboration and mutual understanding then there's no reason in principle what we can have the same thing now if you'll. just tell you my view. purely political obstacles mainly i have to say mainly on the west and saw it rather than them so it's always really the lack of political will that's worth what it gets down to i think so but it's interesting that the period when that documentary was made the end of ninety six beginning ninety seven two is that they're being quite a lot of profound shocks in the one nine hundred sixty s. that make people think a bit more about the danger of confrontation cuban missile crisis is a perfect example so they're looking i think they were receptive to think about the time when we worked together in this great cause and that whole film comes out of the sense that we were you all in this together so so people for a certain age remembering the feeling that it's a great generation is the i think it is what lies in the u.k.

as it does in the united states of course that documentary is driven by the recollections of people who were there are no historians and it yes and if you were to make it again i would say count the talking heads let's hear from the people who were there which would be difficult now but that's what they they're all still you know i had never thought about that that's what made it so charming because it was so authentic yes you know speaking of beauty and been you know the struggle you know when we entered the cold war. it's still the allied coalition and that's what kept it going when we then we went into the ideological complicated europe doesn't have that kind it doesn't have a moment of unity right now i mean i don't see you know a great moment that brought the entire continent together because what we see now is a rise of bright green groups and kind of you know away at some of the more nasty elements of the second world war we can talk about what's going on in ukraine for

example with the they were turned step and bend and the rise of neo fascist groups and ideologies. i think that. disruption our. you're a piece mostly from the right right wing populist but you also have left wing talk populists of course so there's more about. the center. and you have all. this alternative you're always the understatement i don't want. a lot more division i guess a lot of the source for our unity across europe collapse this is not necessarily a good thing for russia because russia tends to be a bit of a unifier if things go wrong we can always point to russia and unity against a common other serious i guess the incentive not to talk up the russian threat as we have this disunity in the west i think it doesn't work jeff it isn't work i

don't see that it works ok just going there. was a moment of unity in europe and that moment was off the collapse of the soviet clubs' communism grew up in the immediate post soviet post cold war era monti when you have to magically translate into hostility towards russia about just point you know you know so you had this expansion of the you had this expanse of ninety who had efforts to actually unify the count of the continent so that was the moment of unity but of course it was at the expense of russia and what should have happened in the nine hundred ninety s. but didn't we're paying the price now is the show you're russia should have been integrated into that unifying moment you said it was kept a distance not you treated treated very badly it was really it was really interesting doing the there in the cold war they had this concept of captive nations. under communism and i got myself into a huge huge trouble for saying but russia was a captive nation as well that really disturbed people ok because what i'm what i'm

saying is that that was an ideological conflict it wasn't with the people yes yes that's right. it's interesting since we talk about remembering the second world war the way to say i remember walking you through the. yes in that there are all those who argue that the lessons of the wall was worked together it was unification and the only why of freeing effort to use it for put it working together against forces like fascism or other totalitarian movements and something's happened to that that the memory of what will too has been captured by people who use it for other purposes of national pride and exclusiveness that victory means our victory or if we do off the wall it meant terrible things to our nation that have have to now maybe. be restored hold that thought we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on world war two stay with r.t. .

this if there was a period of sort of. schedule it's just bush bloody. good you might be a little bulbs the minute you did it was not go to the. loser because its appeal is a couple of good enough that all you want to go to the premium none of that it's a liberal socialist that you think you'll know paul. enough well it was pretty good way to listen to crow but you still don't which can go i'm going down but i come. here do you mean. you're learning you know did you storm the lead here c m i looked up

a mood subversion or during the kluge your coconspirators. in twenty four you know bloody revolution to the demonstrations going from being relatively peaceful political protests to be creasing the violent revolution is always spontaneous or is it you know here. in the. schooling you go to the former ukrainian president recalls the events of twenty forty. those who took part in this state over five billion dollars to assist ukraine in these and other that will ensure a secure and prosperous and democratic. welcome

back to crossfire all things considered i'm peter lavelle remind you we're discussing world war two. ok let me go back to a point that you mentioned before we went to the break oh this is the history in memory of the second world war can be used to unify and it also can be used to divide in the in the case of ukraine it is creating divisions and in a way and i think in a very. poorly thought out way is creating a solidifying a national identity around an ideology was close to if not fascistic the whole point of the great effort during the second world war well yes but the whole issue of victory and defeat gets developed in people's minds in

a particular way and they forget the ideas and their ideology and they remember humiliation they want national pride national reassertion. and they look to whoever looks like they're going to promise it and as we know one of the great selling points if you like the u.s. pay fascism is it says it will make you great again and that usually is not a zero you know it's a zero sum game if we're great people have to be less great and that can. trump does that work a lot of other considerations and is a basic common denominator that will appeal to people particularly if you have the radical center that is in freefall ok it opens the door to that type of thing here you know it's stay with you crane here i mean what's interesting in ukraine is that you have been eastern ukraine they have the same perception in memory of the second world war is russians do but in western ukraine you have

a very different view it was considered a defeat. in national humiliation and it's a way to bring people together at least in the west the president of pushing call found out it doesn't work very well he found out the hard way that going down that path doesn't work. what is the appeal of that i mean i think martin is right i mean in times of trouble people want to look at something they get make energizes them is this the right way to do well i think with. our parts there was huge incentive to develop new national identities to replace the soviet now the problem is when you develop national identities you tend to look towards common victories or common humiliation and i think your comment or designated enemy enemy definitely your your other so i think for a lot of the former soviet republics there was an incentive to to see their national identity perhaps in opposition to russia to revive some very ugly elements

in the ukraine and i think where the ukraine. issue went very bad was kind of aligned the ethno nationalist with the west to some extent because we were in the one nine ninety s we began to. europe without russia so we had certain incentives to support this ethyl nationalist groups so suddenly this ethyl nationals nationalist groups in ukraine who was saying oh russia is the enemy we have to cleanse the russian language culture. some empirical relic then effectively they become our ukraine is this is what what we are doing to some extent developing this russia with europe without russia and they're creating a ukraine without russia also so yes allied ourself with yes very unsavory people and indeed when you see that. with their. spin and their helmets this is the same people. here with back in their lives to say much about it does it

or is that just a freedom of expression issue. i mean i believe it makes me furious it makes me fear you know i think. on the right you call you. you know because you have politically. and from up on it's not surprising but these one thing buffett there's a lot of discord in western countries about some of the stuff that's actually going on and. i think you know a little should be more than disquiet ok ok you know it's not about revisionism because really you know there is a there is an effort to to diminish the soviet war effort i think you know i lived in poland for many years before i lived in russia and they're removing war memorials. from those things you know that's kind of moving into this secret area ok. so be it more war memorials like in hungary with six hundred thousand so be it troops died liberating hungary and then there is

a debate if there should be memorials to them i don't think there should be a debate here there's got to be a way to balance the need that the. remembering those that had fallen in the us and have to be ideologically driven i'm a very conservative person i don't really have anything to do with communism i studied it and i don't believe in it and i don't think it's actually a very good idea but i do recognize the sacrifice is a. monument stone they often are politically charged but they don't have to be if the iconography is chosen carefully of course some of those. monuments have the the iconography of the regime which you could see people might take exception to but you can remove that and retain the spirit there's a very moving little war memorial to the soviets in london next to the imperial war museum that puts across its message very clearly and how much we owed to those.

that can be done in any place and it's helpful it's bonding to think that there was a shared sacrifice and that actually very large numbers of ordinary soviet soldiers from every ethnicity in the u.s.s.r. gave their lives as part of the liberation struggle but you know there is a bit of resistance in most nations to celebrating other people who've liberated them here and we don't like that feeling i think there are going to have somebody from france on the panel well quite that have been moments in the past when there has been a certain amount of resistance to the idea that we ask them continually to say thank you for what we did i think the pritish or a bit resentful if americans say look we saved you in the in the war so i don't think it's just you connection to the response to two well i think it was and you may be wrong here i think it was last year or the year before because there was a boycott western boycott of the parade here in moscow which is a very important event so a number of dignitaries. decided they weren't going to come and i think it was some

of the sailors did. send aid to murmansk there they were they were asked to take those dignitaries. so they were on the on the platform there behind the russian dignitaries from president putin and you had these elderly gentleman who were seamen they'd kept the life line going and i thought i really loved that because it goes back to my really deep seated feeling it's about the sacrifice people made not about governments i mean i'm sure churchill and stalin comrades in arms during the second world is a great read and i will read it but the every day history of people of the home front in. fighting the fighting on the real frontier those are very very moving as well i was a very moving event in. two years ago celebrating the anniversary of the first russian consulate and they have a beautiful moment to the site as to three thousand men who lost their lives on

that so the appreciation there from the people particularly. people and six veterans made made the journey they're all in the ninety's now but they made it with that medals and the white berets that represent the arctic and princess anne was there as well for the wreath laying ceremony so that was very very moving the sense of what the way that the alliance of ordinary people sacrificing their lives a long way from home for all this can be commemorated and it was it was a bonding moment had to go it was full of british american and russian flags and the whole city was celebrating it was it was a wonderful occasion it's how we like putting reality on pause just for a few minutes and it's ok well most of the people who are popular will and that's the most important dimension of it at the same time of the war is a very complex historical phenomenon ok now my view is you know my over of assessment of the soviet role and contribution that war is of. was

a very positive one but there's a lot of stuff that went on in that world which wasn't supposed to you know it's not a black and white issue so so so it's not surprising that there are different historical memories of. because like they focus on different aspects of people maybe aspects that that we wouldn't we would. like but that but the but they've never left the group with you absolutely and you're an expert on that you know that my point is and referencing what martin had to say is when you when you bring it down to the individual level then it's easier for an audience or. citizens to understand that because you're right it's very complex even allies there were lot of complex issues to be resolved so you can't avoid the politics. you know that i got if you want to contest these revisionist you views you have to do it on a serious historical and political basis you can't just keep a lot of the people who are in the you know the good point that want that won't be

affected with you good for you know i was going to i think it's very important to keep in mind that you have this pluralism of memory from the war because yes we see ideology tends to conform everything down to one narrative and often in norway i feel like we it's a good example because norway was occupied during the war by nazi germany and the red army actually entered into the north of the country of the liberated that country and taking mass casualties and after liberating the north of norway a day here buried there and they went home so so it's in the north to still have memories or not fond of it's not a great time but but they have good very good memories of russia we never had any conflicts with them at least not direct conflict but because we join nato also the couple would go to absorb the narrative of the poles so all you have the soviets maybe liberated europe but they never they would never leave so they're just

they're conquering they're not liberators and i think that this causes a split within the we even when we try to have a multitude of historical memories but again and the north it's almost a dry. because it doesn't fit the broader ideology that you know the russians are coming for us and this is where our common you know western identity some extent originated leave the last word forty seconds for us we're going to you are going to say ok i think jeff jeff was right that politics has to be confronted but one of the lessons of the politics is that when it came down to it countries are very different backgrounds got on together in a common course and i think we can we can remember that maybe we should remember that a bit more about the second world war that we came together nationally as peoples but also as leaders together. it would be a good idea of people start boycotting the parade ok and i want to plug the book again churchill and stalin comrades in arms around the second world war martin jeffrey that's all the time we have many thanks to my guests here in moscow and

thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time remember crosstalk.

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