he's considered one of the best neurosurgeons in brazil. that's happened. already so. nothing's going to get the population going to people on the phone. hello and welcome to cross talk we're all things considered i'm peter lavelle if we ever need an anti-war movement it's obviously now trumps hyper aggressive foreign policy faces little resistance in the mainstream media in fact numerous liberal

news outlets function as a cheering section for the president where is the moral outrage. across talking the anti-war resistance i'm joined by my guest media benjamin in washington she is an author as well as co-founder of code pink also in washington we have walter small otic he's an answer coalition organizer and in romania we cross the brand jacobson he is the director of the department of peace operations of the remaining peace institute all right cross talk rules in effect that means he can jump in in any time you want i always appreciate medea let me go to you 1st i mean you and i probably remember quite well in 2003 the illegal invasion of iraq but the the anti-war movement was vast it was strong it was loud it was all across europe it was in the u.k. it was a very strong in the united states even though the media didn't like the coverage there was a real and. i war movement now speed up to 2019 under the trumpet ministration the

we hear we hear calls for war and violence and invasion of venezuela of the rand we have the united states supplying lethal weapons to ukraine we have the united states going to the south china sea as remarkably in the middle of trade negotiations here we have a hyper aggressive foreign policy but where is the anti-war movement other than places like this and people like yourselves go ahead medea in washington. unfortunately i think people are so consumed by domestic issues and there are so many important issues in the mainstream media in this country is super hyper focused on domestic issues and nonpartizan issues and there is very little coverage of what's going on in the world i think for the most part people are unaware of all of these global wars that are still going on 2 decades afterwards and the new

threats that are happening so we have an educated public and those who are educated in terms of being active in wanting to get involved tend to be involved in issues related to the environment to the terrible issues of racism. the issues around things like homophobia islamophobia and partisan politics ok but walter is the lack of knowledge the ignorance an intentional ploy by the media because when it comes to these foreign policy issues and i'm thinking of and this n.b.c. scene and i mean that in some degree with fox obviously they're just an auger a 1st for power i thought they said they would never do that again but they had learned their lesson from the illegal invasion of iraq but they haven't learned their lesson at all as one fact it's even far worse now because as a result of 2003 a lot of people were essentially blacklisted banned from the airwaves and they're still banned because they talked. about all of these things like breaking of

international law i mean it's if the american people knew i think that they might think differently but they don't know walter. oh absolutely i agree with you i mean i think that things going on in the world practically either are either a blackout in the sense that it's not covered or in the sense that it's just distorted to such a great extent that people really have no idea what the what the reality of the situation is and most importantly for protest what the role of the united states government is and sowing discord and chaos and suffering all around the world whether that's in yemen the invasion of libya and ongoing chaos in libya in syria in venezuela the suffering imposed by as a consequence of sanctions on iran i think that you know the mainstream media the corporate media deserves much of the blame but i think it's facilitated by a shift in tactics that the pentagon war machine has undergone since the 2003 invasion of iraq which of course involved large numbers of troops on the ground

quote unquote boots on the ground where hundreds of thousands of u.s. soldiers were stationed in iraq were occupying the country were patrolling the streets every day and as a consequence of course the iraqi people didn't like being occupied and so there was a resistance movement that formed and so thousands of u.s. troops were killed many thousands more suffered life altering wounds serious serious injuries and that made the war you know more more real for people that made it in other words harder to conceal by the mainstream media but way think we saw especially with the obama administration is a turn towards things like drone warfare a turn towards you know the heavy use of special operations forces things that can be more easily concealed and that's very interesting which let's go to remain and let me just add to that proxy wars exactly here it is right now the the european union in nato countries that are part of the european union they're getting a lot of pressure from the trumpet ministration to follow. in line. as regards to

iran and there seems to be some resistance pockets of resistance but at the end of the day they're going to have to follow the united states because the united states has supplied so much pressure here i mean it would be very helpful of the europeans could to be a little bit you know grow a little bit more of a spine if i can say it that way and say that you know they don't have a problem rand is not a threat to them it's certainly not a nexus tensile threat to the united states in any way at all but the europeans distended just fall in line and i think i find that really disappointing go ahead in rumania. i think part of the challenge that we face in europe is that europe itself is not united answered it across the european union you can see recently with the bonds visit in trump and you have the regime in washington actively cultivating right wing in authoritarian regimes across much of europe so any attempt to bring about a consensus amongst european nations as to their approaches on iran or many other foreign policy issues is increasingly difficult and challenge i think in comparison

to the antiwar movement that we saw the for the invasion of iraq in 2003 the context was very different that was a campaign which had been built up over multiple hearings and also sanctions that had been imposed on iraq since the 1st gulf war and in that time you had the development of a substantial network of an antiwar movement all across the united states you had the build up of opposition to dissension on iraq across europe and internationally and you also had many within governments in europe who are strongly opposed to what they saw was an invasion that would worsen security and bring about many negative consequences in the region as it did our challenge today is that the campaigns to escalate crises are constant and much faster so there's a shorter time to build broad based movements in response to them these are often situations or areas which many citizens don't have that much information they don't

feel the connection they're not as aware of what's happening there and i think also whether politicians or citizens many people have been saturated over the last more than 15 years of continual war and aggression not only by the united states but by the united states by russia saudi arabia many countries have been pursuing very aggressive militarist policies on a global scale ok mikki i mentioned earlier in the program i mean i'm sure you remember when when trump ordered the missile attack against. very early in his administration and you know the way i look at it russia gate has always been just a hoax a myth that was it worked for ratings for a while rachel maddow but when trump agree just really broke international law in attacking syria for and now we know that there was no chemical attack it was fake it was staged here but the liberals went to his side calling him presidential

i mean it's it defies logic to me because you you know you are they were going chasing this hoax for over 2 years and still doing it there's nothing there but that bombing campaign was illegal we did see it but they were called beautiful missiles what's happened to the left go ahead in washington. well i wouldn't call that the left a would say the left was not calling them get a full missiles but i do agree again i met and be saying n.b.c. n.b.c. is to the left i think you would agree with that m s n b c's left. well i call them pro democrats and i don't really think of them as the left but in any case i agree with your premise which is stating that the democrats tend to cheer on their republicans and when their are doing something that is totally illegal but it is.

fighting bombing of supporting military industrial complex i do want to say though we have had something extraordinary in this year which is the democrats and some republicans coming together to try to oppose the u.s. support for the saudi bombing in yemen and that actually passed in both the house and the senate the 1st time using the word paris act and a lot of support from grassroots communities to make that happen unfortunately trump vetoed that and we didn't have the votes to override it but it is a good example of forcing anough republicans to join with democrats to say no to support for an illegal war. are you agreeing going to jump in. well i think the last point that it just mentioned is critical the increasing opposition to the war in yemen and the role that not only the united states but european countries are playing on it playing it and we've seen an alliance between

many governments and citizens working to weapons sales to saudi arabia working to raise awareness about it so i think there is actually a peace movement that is by her that is present on your other point with regards to coverage of this is i wouldn't necessarily call ins and the left either they're very central establishment but we've seen this in the 1st gulf war busy we've seen this in the 2nd gulf war you have an almost watching us approach across media in celebrating congratulating and cheerleading military aggression a lot of and that's not unique to the united states we see this across most countries and most media what is necessary in terms of campaigning in engaging is organizations and citizens is this constant effort to reach out to raise people's awareness and i think what's critical today to dina legitimize war as an approach to addressing conflicts internationally if you look at any of the major large scale armed conflicts over the last 20 years they have almost all ended in strategic failure there is actually the canadian general to sing all the commander of all in

forces in rwanda after only a delay or who said quite explicitly war and the military cannot bring peace they never how they never will at the same time we've seen the incredible development in the last 20 years of the field of peace building international organizations and agencies working on the ground in tunis affected by violent conflict very effectively gauged to prevention very effectively gauged working in mediation and peace processes and for 30 years we have i have a job and i have a chairman here we're going to go to a short break and after that sharp break we'll continue our discussion on the antiwar resistance spade with art. after the previous stage of my career was over everyone wondered what i was going

to do next the book different clubs on one hand it is logical to go from fields where everything is familiar on the other i wanted a new challenge and the fresh perspective i'm used to suppressing. or not if you think. i'm going to talk about football nazi or else you can sink i was going to go. by the way what is the punch line here. is up just to see on his attorney for you. on your own. which it. was a renewal they give you. guys who know people you see opposed to it's when the police you know what's good. and that's the time to get. if

you ask if that's the finish that you give. welcome back to crossfire where all things considered i'm peter lavelle to mind you were discussing the anti-war resistance. ok let's go back to walter in washington and we all remember when barack obama made his ran for president for the 1st time in 2008 he i would call him a moderate anti-war moderate pro. peace candidate and it was appealing to people and speed up to 2016 and donald trump was doubting nato and doubting

the necessity of foreign wars in the middle east the necessity to have infrastructure at home and both presidents in office. were benton to back into the establishment ways to me wonder what happens because i would say donald trump endangers his reelection with a lot of people that voted for him just on the issue of noninterference in foreign wars and i in those were veterans families of veterans maybe it was a sliver of the electorate but it might have been important what happens to these presidents that run on these platforms but when they get in power in all changes go ahead walter. well i absolutely agree that it's a very important issue i think it's an under-rated issue in terms of public opinion and electoral significance. i think not only was able to defeat mccain on the basis of his being seen as sort of more opposed to the iraq war i think that was also

central to his primary election victory over hillary clinton within the democratic party and yeah absolutely i mean i think that there are some people who may have voted for trump on the issues of war and peace or i think more likely just sort of stayed home the people who would have maybe otherwise voted for a democrat but stayed home because they were so disgusted by it by the endless wars that are going on all around the world waged by the united states look i mean i think the united states is fundamentally acts as an empire when it comes to its relations with the rest of the world i mean there is no sense of cooperation there's no sense of mutual respect i mean there's just sort of dictates given by washington and that's created a system that is much more powerful than i think that individual person sitting in the oval office that includes of course the military industrial complex you know the. big weapons manufacturers boeing busy lockheed martin all the people who make

billions and billions tens of billions of dollars off of this perpetual warfare state and i think it actually goes deeper than that i think that the big banks and corporations in the united states you know they need access to markets they need access to labor forces to exploit and the sort of rules of the game internationally as they like to refer to it when it comes to trade i and other economic policies you know the washington consensus is something that they value very heavily so that the institutional weight of all of those interests all those very very powerful people and institutions i think can basically overwhelm any individual sitting in the white house but to go back to our conversation about the antiwar movement i think that it can also be said that a mass movement can overwhelm those very powerful entrenched interests and fight back in a very effective way you know. media go ahead jump in go ahead you're going to head . i just wanted to add a piece to what walter was talking about and that's small interest groups that are

powerful lobbies in the united states that help to shape policies on particular issues for example the groups like a pack or the christian zionists that help to keep the u.s. relationship very tight with the israeli government or groups right now that we're seeing a venezuelan americans when they trumpet ministration wants to win florida in the upcoming elections and there's about 200000 of them could that could really tip the vote or we have some conservative iranian american groups that for them the most important thing is u.s. policy around iran so those small groups they don't reflect public opinion in general but they have an outsized influence you know when you know public opinion but public opinion is manufactured i mean if you look at it we could take the example of venezuela it's a socialist country that's why the united states has intervened i mean that's

a ridiculous claim to make but that peddles all of the time and it's bipartisan as well i mean the coverage of been his whale is just appalling it takes someone like max blumenthal from the gray zone to go down there with a camera crew and just absolutely humiliate the mainstream media and their reporting fictions ok venezuela has a lot of problems there's no denying it but it's not a justification to invade the country violate the country's sovereignty break international law but those just those issues that i just mentioned they're never mentioned in the mainstream no wonder people don't understand what's going on because the the the narrative is manufactured in a way that is so self-serving to power but why wouldn't the american people europeans say all this quite oh god it sounds all right though he's completely an invention of washington and the media goes along with it that's why we have permanent war go ahead in romania. i think when you speak about manufacturing

opinion and consent one of the things that we see though is while you have that constant narrative coming from across the breadth of media most people don't necessarily buy into it or agree with any look at a holes in the united states or across europe the overwhelming majority of citizens is the average citizen in our country are sick and tired of war they're opposed to wars they're opposed to invasions but the problem is on the one hand you have this almost homogenously narrative coming from across different media and you have the lack of making visible any practical alternatives so just because the news stations are constantly broadcasting how evil this regime or that regime is whichever angle they're coming from it doesn't mean that the majority of citizens actually buy into it our challenge is that because of the constant bombardment of war that we have facing the cons of them argument of crisis and challenges in people's lives from the invasions of iraq afghanistan september 11th the financial crisis bret's it

this constant messaging of crisis and stress i think the average citizen when you speak to them doesn't see practically what can i do to bring about change so you may have some support for candidates who say they're opposed to war they're opposed to foreign interventions and then there are those promises are broken which most citizens are very used to from political leadership and for italy but i think we need to be working at this point in history drawing lessons from the civil rights movement the environmental movement the women's movement to really be building a broad based alliance of citizens and people from all different backgrounds recognizing the incredible destructiveness of war we can see what has resulted across the middle east and north africa following the invasions of iraq the war in syria libya and yemen and also dealing with dismissed that has been perpetuated for hundreds of years that war is good for business war is good for weapons industry which is the growing dramatically for mercenary corporations which have been for smuggling. market economy but the overwhelming majority of businesses in the

industry and workers and citizens like suffer from war so there's an opportunity now at this moment in history to actually build a broad based movement and also gauge with governments around the world to find practical and effective alternatives to deal egypt of my drive and the momentum for war whether that's coming from a democrat or republican president whether it's coming from the united states turkey saudi arabia russia or what have you to. really citizens who are tired of this constant military consular yeah i mean basically you know let me go to go to walter you when you have when you have a candidate you know she really shows her cards and it's really quite amazing how they try to shut her down i mean she doesn't even telegraph where she's going to speak because she's hounded to death on twitter and everywhere else because she challenges the status quo and you know what i've seen her speak many times albeit

on you tube she speaks very authoritatively and very intelligent she knows exactly what she's talking about she knows a lot of nuance about foreign policy and she speaks actually quite presidential in my opinion compared to all the other phoneys that are running for president on the democratic party side and i'd like to also talk about how do we deal with that in mind a system where a former executive of buoying will be now become the secretary of defense shanahan there's a fascinating article right now in the american conservative it is it so galling and so obvious that this is a revolving door here but you that's never mentioned in the mainstream walter go ahead. i mean it's a really remarkable remarkable testament to the power of the mainstream media that somebody like bedo rorik you know this just completely vapid failure is considered to be a serious presidential contender but healthy gathered as you know completely blocked

from from their waves and it's as a consequence i think polling very low not because of you know the presentation that she gives their you know the ideas that she promotes but that i think because the corporate media has basically decided that that's out of bounds that's not allowed within the very narrow constraints of u.s. political discourse. so the point about you know the deal is jim is a sion of the system i mean i think this is this is sort of one of the things that can give us hope for a revival of a mass antiwar movement like we saw in 2003 because there has been so much of the diligent in my eyes the system in the view of many tens of millions of people i think especially young people who you know have grown up in a in a period where war was normalized i mean for the vast majority of my life the united states has been occupying afghanistan and so you know we saw the occupy wall street movement you know the uprising in ferguson and of the rise of the b.d.s. movement i think that's another important example because even though the media the

mainstream media is completely pro israel anti palestinian we still see the explosion of the b.d.s. movement all around the country and the explosion of students for justice and palestinian groups and other organizations on college campuses so it can be done the corporate media power is not put in the media to give us the mantra from code pink when i'm a great admirer of your organization on foreign policy i'd like to point that on in foreign policy. telegraph to our audience here what they should do to deal with you demise forever war and blitz war go ahead in d.c. . to understand that this vast military industrial security complex that's been built up. since the 960 s. has overwhelmed our budget taken money away that must be used now for things like a green new deal medicare for all free college education for young people and it

would make us more secure and by closing down the $800.00 plus military bases we have overseas slashing hundreds of billions of dollars from the pentagon by budget and investing it in real human needs and the survival of our planet ok well the last 2 items i would sign up to 1st because we do have differences but when it comes to ending forever war i'm on your side all the way i would even wear pink for you ok that's all the time we have many thanks to my guests in washington and in romania and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.t. see you next time and remember. join me every thursday on the alex i'm i'm sure i'll be speaking to guest of the world of politics or business i'm sure business i'll see you that.

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