system bay many members of the workers there have been there throughout a number of countries in the world including of the security council supporting them so the situation is quite different somehow now what we need from the security council is not to call upon anybody to intervene militarily we were in the security council to cord for the strain for the respect and the arms embargo against all the but the supplants you've been very critical of how open 3 the arms embargo that you just mentioned is being violated i mean it's done in all point of view for everybody and what i find interesting is that various countries who support various sides and levy i don't even using it as a pretext to wage allegations against one another isn't that an indication that all sides to the libyan conflict have made peace with the war. all sides. are getting support from outside there are between 6 or 7 countries and 10

countries now sending weapons to libya recently some of those buses in libya wanted to boost the morale of their troops that they are not alone but they haven't international support so they won the extra my wealth not only importing these a.p.c.'s because it was basically apc's into libya but also all of the filming them and having given us a good late thing and all this in order as a morale booster for their own troops but from our point of view this is a blatant violation we nor the location so far have been discreet way lesions in the open. which perhaps suggests that all the parties while playing pay some lip service to political process by investing that knowledge is always a logical for and it's not in addition of reason for the security council to react

because the security council 1st does his duty to look after the peace and security in the word and does now contain conflict in libya expand to the best of libya possibly to a neighboring countries therefore it is important that the security council takes care of it but on top of that this him by you have a relation that we are witnessing hitting the hope of the security council credibility so when i said yes to the security council your arms embargo is becoming a cynical joke i meant it because if people not only important but so it of brag about it and the security council does nothing what would be left of the multilateral collective security council it will die but don't you think that this multilateral security council has already effectively rearranged itself because

you've been very critical of tears advances on tripolitania but not of the un security council members including russia made very strong condemnations of his move in fact general have to. received almost a presidential treatment last month in in paris which i would say suggests perhaps all the major parties to the conflict may have to if you are exceptions are more or less ok with what he has been doing i haven't criticize most that have harshly i have just been faithful to the facts i put them before the security council members some of them accepted them some of them said. i mean have a behavior that is different that's why when we started this conversation i told you i was counting on a minimal unity within the council what i'm discovering more and more is that on the one hand this minimal unity is more or less preserved but on the other hand

many companies including members of the security council are behaving their own way so it is very hard for me in libya to explain this to the libyans to explain to the libyans the why they hear gunfire is saying that they supposedly that in fact they are doing their own things in libya you mentioned unity and i think we have their rare occurrence now that both russia and the united states which usually find themselves on opposite sides in any geopolitical game they both blocked u.k. dropped its resolutions on libya conducting general are. both moscow and washington seem to be ok with what he has been doing how do you explain that do you see any convergence between how russia and the united states approach the events in libya. they agree on any fight against terrorists they

be quite. i would say not in alliance but similar they have similar attitude and they also agree on the necessity to keep the libyan oil flowing because this is important for the total for the market and also stability. and also for the food for the libyans themselves. now for the rest i don't think they are getting more than that. but when it comes to libya i think that from my today's visit to to moscow a. more hopeful that russia. will have the realistic. assessment of the military situation on the ground and why 2 months have passed since the offensive against tripoli that now they have an idea that is a stalemate and this stalemate. cannot remain

a stalemate it will necessarily deteriorate in something else so it leaves a lot of room for that that is to use the libyan scene and in fact that which if you attacks in libya now has increased his attacks in the past 2 months 5 but that from dies on top of the. the escalation can bring countries into the field day that plea and the conflict which means that other countries will also interfere so far it has been politico's diplomatic and was the exports of arms but i am afraid that one day will come with one or other country who will feel the effect what could possibly spark that interact intervention if this is a clear defeat in their eyes and for either side this could be the case now i heard you say before that general doesn't have the support of tripoli but clearly the un

backed prime minister fayyad us also rush doesn't have the support of the rest of the country in fact he has major difficulties exerting his authority even within the capital how do you think the international community at this point should approach you know they say game of ascertaining the level of support and who is legitimate in libyan politics who is legitimate is a question that is crucial in libya and the one who needs to decide is the libyan people that is the way we should carefully slowly gradually legally go into elections today you have basically 2 parliaments you have basically 2 governments you have basically in me that is not considered of the country is made by the other side so everybody labels the other the way he wants because there is a very deep crisis of legitimacy and this crisis of legitimacy cannot be solved by

going to be ins themselves that is. by the national conference we we're working on for a paper and 14th but it was delayed because of the offensive was meant to mend their order towards the election so we sold not because i am fond of democracy or because i want to export democracy everywhere this is not my plan but in all of those 2 songs with very specific issue who is the institution of that business at them and and libya we have to take a very short break now but we will be back in just a few moments they can't. do this in petersburg international economic forum is a unique event in today's business world. over the last 21 years the forum has

become a leading global platform for discussing the key economic issues facing russia emerging markets and the world thousands of business community members attend a forum to address today's and vital issues. for just visual foreign coverage on o.t. . nobody could see coming that false confessions would be that prevalent in the spock place before the conviction if you had any interrogations out there what you'll see is threat promise threat promise threat lie a lie a lie the process of interrogation is designed to put people in just that frame of mind make the most comfortable make them want to get out and don't take no for an answer don't accept their denials she said if our words. sound stay there i will be home by that time the next day there's a culture on accountability and police officers know that they can engage in

misconduct that has nothing to do with solving a crime. for the project was good for you you the one you've heard were you mrs these are people with. them worth a response who moved cheaper suv into a. different school should be a minority view that. this. is new the no close you can both of us on the evening continue going to stay in boning you isn't in your history kind of t.v. . you can. be as good as you move to you know who are you more you would almost to date as.

some of you will meet someone who knows the. ins and. you know world of big partisan issue. and conspiracy it's time to wake up to dig deeper to get the stories that midstream media refuses to tell more than ever we need to be smarter we need to stop slamming the door on the shouting past each other it's target for critical thinking it's time to fight for the little for the truth the time is now we're watching closely watching the hawks.

welcome back to worlds apart with guess until i may have the united nations support the mission in libya this is tell me just before the break we started discussing a conference which was a plan that by general advance and trip at a time and he already gained a lot of control over additional territory. do you think whenever you bring that subject of a conference again in the future do you think he's territorial gains will in any way change the juxtaposition of the. arrangement of forces sure that is the put the a put forward and force a print for. on many issues 1st there is no trust the has been sort of child trust was never there in years isn't it i mean that whole war is well

you know in the way trail of trust yes i must and but we brought people together in the past 2 years we've brought people together 2nd it's important people who are stakeholders who are not present and i will w. or not present us with the know they're in much part of the political process so the you cannot go into the political process without a suspicion of hostilities because as long as those thing that is going on it means that one of the 2 parties believes that this is going to win which i don't believe is the case i believe that the choice is between a long war and decision of course that it is but not was it quickly isn't that also true that one of the parties militarily has been much stronger than the other i mean the can we really ignore the fact that general hofstra having started with a small battalion has amassed a significant force that's been progressing towards the in the west of the country i mean he certainly doesn't look like somebody who wants to negotiate his position

within the country's politics i agree with you however i think you would have to one day you would have forces should i think reality the reality on the ground is much more complex that everybody believes it is true that a lot of the territory is now under his control but that is true also that the majority of the population is not on that has controlled so far and been desi the guys who are fighting against him where generally the members of the groups that are or the size by the international community in tripoli you have those or imprisons evolve those but you have also a lot of numbers or floor created gangs local people local militias it at that etc who are not this. that. is the old by the international community so the spectrum or those who are opposing him in tripoli is larger that is why the battle is more

difficult and on top of that you have a lot of people coming from other cities from the from misrata from them as a group to the rescue of the youth india group so that is why i am saying they either elicit the choice is between a long war and its decision or facilities you often refer to you mr al saraj as un backed prime minister for your own legal nights you have recognized the prime minister very obviously you know that many people in libya question his mandate he overstayed his mandate for a couple of here is that there is also issues about his ability to actual size control i understand that one year and speaks in his favor at the u.n. is actually no backing him personally but rather the process that the u.n. has launched but there comes a point when somebody has to ask a question about the i think this and efficiency of the u.n. process i still sure that it's about the libyan people and not about the united

nations it's institutional role and its reputation well if the security council doesn't take any measures in order to establish its credibility it was all these for your patients of the symbiote ago or for violations of u.n. resolution u.n. security council resolution yes the credibility of the u.n. is a play now locally what we have is an international in the government i will not sing in your presence the praise of the government i will not do that because of course that the government has made my life extend really difficult to push the government to work together instead of quarreling within the presidential council i have wasted a lot of my time still. you do not want to produce a vacuum you have a u.n. resolution what we were working for was a replacement for the presidential council and it a placement of the present cabinet by consensus among the 2 large forces in the

country that's what we will get away i think for 1st by bringing the 2 assemblies together but they failed to agree at the end on the mechanism then we brought mr half that and mr severs together and the most crucial point was supposed to be the national conference in that is where in number of issues concerning the constitution the election the wealth redistribution with to be solved by the libyans themselves speaking about the libyans themselves i heard you compare the libyan situation to the civil war in your name to flovent on saying that the libyans for wasting their national tragic you commit suicide and i think that presumes that ordinarily be and still have a say at all about what's happening around them and to them is that really the case or did it the vince really influence the lance and the crown no i i tried to play

the or pinion i had tried to play the academics the mayors the journalists the doctors the professionals the technocrats i try to tell them you need to sort of devise is a concept of national interest that is different from the politicians interest. but this have to confess will take a generation because for a long time these city provinces forming a surface that is almost as big as saudi arabia is too big for a population that the scepter was a strong local identities but we took care of them i mean the economic. measures broke the dinar from $1.00 to $10.00 do not and they have to for me not we the price of commodities in september went down by 30 to 50 percent we are trying to

have the national oil company remain united and preserve its and we did it was the oil crisis in july last july and we did it again was the shut out of field in february so we are trying to put the national interest of the libyans independent from the maneuvers which are so often very mean of the debian politicians let me bring you back to this question of people's participation because libya was raised to what it is today primarily because somebody number of countries wanted to make a battery and wanted to make it more democratic in those i would argue it wasn't such a horrible place to begin with it was one of the most developed countries in north africa you see it on the border of many international institutions concerned with peace building and call for a correction do you think the libya case offer us any broader

story about how to improve the lives of people around the why was openly opposed to the war against iraq in 2003 but they went to iraq for the u.n. because they felt that what was done was done the threat of complete was a fait accompli now we need to help the iraqis rebuild their country. was not of this similar feelings in 2011 concerning libya but they went to libya because we need why. it is not for the u.s. and it is not for it is because when you feel that you have a kid in the family that this says you do not say i go in to succeed or not this is i mean i understand your intentions but i think you also have to make broad their judgment in a made broader conclusions because if you keep committing the same mistake over and over again because as what kind of mistake did i commit trying not talking about

young talking about the international community about the many western countries who believe that they have it in in themselves the knowledge they expertise of improving lives because the micro saying that that was it was a was a mistake well they said that involves iraq as well there but that didn't stop him from improving or trying to improve felipe and i think it's by now those countries more reluctant to go into this kind of crusades i think the as one by the way american observer once said we went into iraq and bill could buy the and it was a disaster we didn't go into syria and it was a disaster we went into libya but we didn't talk about it we left immediately and it was a doll i think you're referring to of president obama hero boredom go to full of gold well i heard president obama say something to that said it was a mistake or libya he said it was a mistake but what he amount was. a mistake you meant not the intervention and not

that views of the u.n. security mandate but by not doing war post intervention then i want to ask a somebody who has very broad expertise in these affairs do you think the west could have done more post intervention to put libya on the right track once that he was murdered once he was government his army was disbanded do you think the west would have done more to improve life and the b.n. it could well what exactly could it it could have played a better. in institution building not the west necessarily but if. you had allowed the sort of international organizations to come and help the libyans because libya libya is a country like by the way where you have a lot of traders there the doctor engineers that so you needed just some kind of. interest where it was needed i think in this kind of situation

where it is. is police and justice police in order to have domestic police for people to move around and justice because that usually after this kind of conflict a lot of cases before maybe once this was the case in the about and this is the case in libya i think if we had given more attention to that as international community that was crucial what was done was a regime change the rule of the you and that is stuff that about and this was not the best way to go and it would have been probably best not to warn to the whole story but this is another matter we are not there i think it is that he today can ask him very shortly you often talk about the impunity but there is also impunity about making that fateful decision about intervening in a troublesome but no other horrible country i mean there were issues legitimate

questions with regard to the gadhafi government but generally the country was much better than it is today do you think people who made those decisions about overreaching the u.n. mandate do they have to face justice. well not yet there in fact we'll be out of that i don't know i don't know i think we're. into a situation where multilateralism does not care to be anywhere near that on the international level nor on the region and i see organizations that are not very very operate in and it's not even about the multilateralism responsibility and democracy if you know where you want to do the democracies in those countries i suppose at least democratic countries there should be some responsibility. mr sarkozy was defeated in the election mr obama that is that the only point you want when you want more no i'm asking you whether there is a responsibility for taking decisions that have major implications for hundreds of

thousands of people there should be responsibility if you believe there was an investigation in iraq in the u.k. about iraq that led to some kind of blaming for the decision to go and for the kind of arguments that had been used but i don't think the international system today has a mechanism to look at this kind of decision in courage responsibility on the part of we be and players if the international system this is my old one and this is my or my role is not to add a new violation to the internet there's a number of violations of the international system my role is to try and convince the libyans look very very carefully at your own national interest your own national interests is not to fight each other your own national interest is to unite and to rebuild your country and if you do with the international system will

react to that positively but if you give those who interfere in your affairs don't think affairs and reasons and ways and instruments to interfere nobody will stop the well necessary to. i wish you all the slack in this very difficult undertaking that's like. well i hope you get it at least from this capital but. we'll see what time will tell thank you very much for sharing your things thank you encourage our viewers to keep this conversation going in our social media pages and i hope to see her again same place same time here on worlds apart.

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