hello and welcome to all the part of the last think you have seen many unnecessary awards but even among them the libyan catastrophe stands out as a one to loss of lives and infrastructure is there anything and anyone who can still put libya together again want to discuss that i'm now is joined by i guess until i may have the united nations support mission in libya is the same as good to talk to you always thank you very much for the time thank you for inviting me now you know over the years i've interviewed many un and a voice on syria and they all felt obliged to express their results about their

mission but there was always the sounds of hopelessness of what they were trying to achieve and i suspect that you may be even in the more difficult position than that . it's nothing is a position but a when i accepted this. job. i told the truth the unity of the security council on syria was not cool but the division has been the since 28 government and. i was told that there was superficial unity on libya what they discovered late there was that this was really thin and one or the big event that unity can collapse and that's what's happening now was libya have been playing in the bust 2 months since the year that half those movement against tripoli have been playing to produce. a product from the security

council and it does very very difficult so for now the united nations which you now represent is i would claim indirectly complicit in the disintegration of libya and by the time i mean the misuse security council resolution 1073 which was used as a pretext for violent regime change in that country do you think the un still has the moral mandate of trying to how believe in anything. you're knowledgeable enough about the us to know that you can not go couple do you and then jennifer go in that comes to this. it was a security council decision what i thought then about this resolution is very different they can tell you so it was a security council decision and the security council is the present that they will have the will of state. of the united nation as an

entity but also the collective security thinking of the states including the major states at a certain point and. therefore don't ask people who work for the u.n. about their thoughts sometimes are not too happy with what the security council produces or doesn't produce well the reason i'm asking it about this is because i know that you've been very disappointed by general haftar you over to alluded to that essentially uprooting the result of your own work of trying to bring the parties together but wasn't his offensive on tripolitania in a way the replay of events back in the spring of 2011 when calls for pilot a call dollop were ultimately used as a prelude for you know lateral military action no i think the situation is very the

in the sense that. you have you had the regime established for 4 decades and you had some protests against this regime and then you had an external intervention military intervention by the middle. i accept or not accept the but q. was a u.n. resolution used to legitimize this intervention now you have a completely different situation you have a government into probably that is internationally called nice since early 2016 and you have a challenger coming from the east and the system they are many members of the workers there have been there throughout a number of countries in the world including of the security council supporting them so the situation is quite different somehow now what we need from the security council is not to call upon anybody to intervene militarily we were in the security

council to cord for it is trained for the respect and the arms embargo against all the but this have been you've been very critical of how openly the arms embargo that you just mentioned is being violated i mean it's done in all of you for everybody and what i find interesting is that various countries who support various sides and libya i don't even using it as a pretext to wage allegations against one another isn't that an indication that all sides to the libyan conflict have made peace with the war. all sides. are getting support from outside there are between 6 or 7 countries and 10 countries now sending weapons to libya recently some of those parties in libya wanted to boost the morale of their troops that they are not alone but they haven't international support so they want the extra my it or not only importing these

a.p.c.'s because it was basically apc's into libya but also often the filming them and having given us that kool-aid thing and all this in order as a morale booster for their own troops but from our point of view this is a blatant violation we know that their nation so far have been discreet now whale asians are in the open. which perhaps suggests that all the parties while playing pay some lip service to political process i'm fasting that not only is always a logical for and it's not in addition a reason for the security council to react because the security council 1st does his duty to look after the peace and security in the word and this now contained conflict in libya expand to the best of libya possibly to neighboring countries therefore it is important that the security council takes care of it but

on top of that this in by you have a relation that we are witnessing hitting the hope of the security council could it ability so when i said yes to the security council your arms embargo is becoming a cynical joke i meant it because if people not only important but so it of brag about it and the security council does nothing what would be left of the multilateral collective security council it will die but don't you think that this multilateral security council has already effectively rearranged itself because you've been very critical of that answers on tripolitania but not of the un security council members including russia made very strong condemnations of his move in fact general have to. receive almost a presidential treatment last month in in paris which i would say suggests

perhaps all the major parties to the conflict may have to if you are exceptions are more or less ok with what he has been doing i haven't criticize most that have harshly i have just been faithful to the facts i put them before the security council members some of them i accepted them some of them say yes. i mean have a behavior that is different that's why when we started this conversation i told you i was counting on a minimal unity within the council what i'm discovering more and more is that on the one hand this minimal unity is more or less preserved but on the other hand many companies including members of the security council are behaving in their own way so it is very hard for me in libya to explain this to the libyans to explain to the libyans the why they hear gunfire is saying that they support me that in fact

they are doing their own things in libya you mentioned unity and i think we have their rare occurrence now that both russia and the united states which usually if find themselves an opposite sides in any geopolitical game they both blocked u.k. draft its resolutions on libya conducting general are. both moscow and washington seem to be ok with what he has been doing how do you explain that do you see any convergence between how russia and the united states approach the advance and libya. they agree on any fight against terrorists they be quite. i would say not in alliance but similar and they have similar that if you would and they also agree on the necessity to keep the libyan oil flowing because this is important for the sort of oil market and also stability and also for the food for the libyans themselves now for the rest i don't think they are getting

more than that. but when it comes to libya i think that from my today's visit to moscow a. more hopeful. russia. will have that a list to kick. assessment of the military situation on the ground and why 2 months have passed since the offensive against tripoli but now they have an idea. that it is a stalemate and this stalemate cannot remain a stalemate it will necessarily deteriorate in something else so it leaves a lot of room for that that is to use the libyan scene and in fact that which if you attacks in libya now has increased his attacks in the past 2 months 5 but that

from dies on top of the. the escalation can bring countries through into the field day that plea in the conflict which means that other countries would also diffuse so far it has been politico's diplomatic and was the exports of arms but i am afraid that one day will come with one or other country with the feet of the what could possibly spark interact intervention if this is a clear defeat in their eyes and for either side this could be the case now i heard you say before that general doesn't have the support of tripoli but clearly the u.n. backed prime minister fayyad us also rush doesn't have the support of the rest of the country in fact he has major difficulties exerting his authority even within the capital how do you think the international community at this point should approach you know they say game of ascertaining the level of support and who is legitimate maybe in politics who is legitimate is

a question that is crucial. and the one who needs to decide that is the libyan people that is why we should carefully slowly gradually legally go into elections today you have basically 2 parliaments you have basically 2 governments you have basically in army that is not considered as the country's army by the other side so everybody laban's the other the way he wants because there is a very deep crisis of legitimacy and this crisis of legitimacy cannot be solved but by going to be and themselves that is why the national conference we were working on for april 14th but it was delayed because of the offensive was meant to build the road towards elections so we sold not because i am fond of democracy or because i want to export democracy everywhere this is not my plan but

in all due to sort of a very specific issue who is the institution that is legitimate in libya well we have to take a very short break now but we will be back in just a few moments thinking and.

not. survival guide. to the story. says. he should. repeat. the 70. welcome back to worlds apart with guest on salon may had of the united nations support mission in libya the summit just before the break we started discussing a conference which was attended by general have to advance and. he already gained a lot of control over additional territory. do you think whenever

you bring that subject of a conference again in the future do you think he's territorial gains will in any way change the juxtaposition of the. arrangement of forces sure that is the believe it would for force it print for on many issues 1st that is now a thrust the has been sort of child trust was never there in libya years of it i mean that whole war is well you know we trust yes i miss that but we brought people together in the past 2 years we brought people together the 2nd it's important the people who are the stakeholders who are not present the noble w. or not present this with be no they're much part of the political process so the you cannot go into the political process without a suspicion of hostilities because as long as those thing that is going on it means

that one of the 2 both is believes that is going to win which i don't believe is the case i believe that the choice is between the long war. is a signal force that it does but it was a quickly isn't that also true that one of the parties militarily has been much stronger than the other i mean the can we really ignore the fact that general hofstra having started with a small battalion has amassed a significant force that's been progressing towards the in the west. country i mean he certainly doesn't look like somebody who wants to negotiate his position within the country's politics i agree with you however i think you would have to one day you would have forces should i think reality the reality on the ground is much more complex everybody believes it is true that a lot of the terror to the is now under his control but the true also that the majority of the population is not on that has controlled so far and. the the

guys who are fighting against him with it generally the members of the groups that are or the size by the international community in tripoli you have those or in prisons it will be those but you have also a lot of number or floor could gangs local people local militias it's at that it's at the water not listed. at all by the international community so the spectrum or those who are opposing him into the pally is larger that is why the battle is more difficult and on top of the you have a lot of people coming from other cities from zawiya from misrata from the m a z group to the rescue of the youth india group so that is why i am saying that either the choice is between a long war and it's a station or facility you often refer to you mr also russia's u.n. backed prime minister for your own legal nights you have recognized the prime

minister but obviously you know that many people in libya question his mandate he overstayed his mandate for a couple of here is that there's also issues about his ability to actual size control i understand that while you're in speaks in his favor at the u.n. is actually no backing him personally but rather the process that the u.n. has launched but there comes a point when somebody has to ask a question about the i think it's an efficiency of the u.n. process. i still sure that it's about the libyan people and not about the united nations its institutional role and its reputation. well if the security council doesn't take any measures in order to reestablish its credibility it was all these for your patience of the go or of violations of un resolution u.n. security council resolution yes the credibility of the u.n. is a play now locally what we have is an international in the government i will

not sing in your presence the praise of the government i will not do that because of course that the government has made my life extend a difficult to push that government to work together instead of quarreling within the presidential council i have wasted a lot of my time still. you do not want to produce a vacuum you have the u.n. resolution what we were working for was a replacement for the presidential council and a placement of the present cabinet by consensus among the 2 large forces in the country that's what we will get away i think for 1st by bringing the 2 assemblies together but they failed to agree at the end on the mechanism then we brought mr half that and mr severs together and the most crucial point was supposed to be the national conference in that is where in number of issues concerning the

constitution the election there were 3 distribution with to be solved by the libyans themselves speaking about the libyans themselves i heard you compare the libyan situation to the civil war in your name to flovent on saying that the libyans for wasting their national treasure to commit suicide and i think that presumes that ordinarily be and still have a say about what's happening around them and to them is that really the case. or didn't even see really influence the lands on the ground no i i tried to play the or pinion i had tried to play the academics the mayos the journalists the doctors the professionals the technocrats i tried to tell them you need to sort of devise is a concept of national interest that is different from the politicians interest.

but this have to confess will take a generation because for a long time these 3 provinces forming a surface that is almost as big as saudi arabia is too big for a population that the scepter was a strong local identities but we took care of them i mean the economic measures we brought to the dinar from $1.00 to $10.00 do not and they have to for me not we the price of commodities in september went down by 30 to 50 percent we are trying to have the national oil company remain united and preserve its and we did it was the oil crisis and the crisis in july 1 last july and we did it again was the shut out of field in february so we are trying to put the national interest of the libyans independent from the maneuvers which are so often very mean of the debian

politicians let me bring you back to this question of people's participation because libya was raised to what it is today primarily because somebody number of countries wanted to make a battery and wanted to make it more democratic in those i would argue it wasn't such a horrible place to begin with it was one of the most developed countries in north africa you see it on the border of many international institutions concerned with peace building. and call for a correction do you think the only b.n. case offer us any broader story about how to improve the lives of people around the why was openly opposed to the war against iraq in 2003 but they went to iraq for the un because they felt that what was done was done the complete was a fait accompli now we need to help the iraqis rebuild their country. was not of

this similar feelings in 2011 concerning libya but they went to libya because we need why. it is not for the u.s. and it is not for it is because when you feel that you have a kid in the family that this says you do not say i go in to succeed or not this is i mean i understand your intentions but i think you also have to make broad their judgment in a made broader conclusions because if you keep committing the same mistakes over and over again because as what kind of mistake did i commit trying not talking about young talking about the international community about the many western countries who believe that they have it in themselves the knowledge they expertise of improving lives mr micro they're saying that that was it was a was a mistake well they said that involves iraq as well there but that didn't stop him from improving or trying to improve think by now those

countries more reluctant to go into this kind of crusades i think the as one by the way american observer once said we went into iraq and we all could buy the and it was a disaster we didn't go into syria and it was a disaster we went into libya but we didn't talk about it we left immediately and it was a doll i think you're referring to of president obama hero boredom go to full of gold well i heard president obama say something to them say it was a mistake or libya he said it was a mistake but what he amount was. a mistake you meant not the intervention and not that views of the un security mandate but by not doing war post intervention then i want to ask a somebody who has very broad expertise in these affairs do you think the west could have done more post intervention to put libya on the right track once that he was murdered once he was government his army was disbanded do you think the west

would have done more to improve life and the b.n. it could what what exactly could it it could have to have played the better. and institution building not the west necessarily but if. you have allowed the sort of international organizations to come and help the libyans because libya libya is a country like by the way where you have a lot of traders ready dr engineers that so you needed just some kind of. interest where it was needed i think in this kind of situation where it is. is police and justice police in order to have domestic police for people to move around and justice because that usually after this kind of conflict a lot of cases before maybe once this was the case in the about and this is the case in libya i think if we had given more attention to that as international

community that was crucial what was done was a regime change the rule after the new and that is stuff that about and this was not the best way to go and it would have been probably best not to wound to the whole story but this is another matter we are not there i think it is that he today can ask him very shortly you often talk about the impunity but there is also impunity about making that fateful decision about intervening in a troublesome but no other horrible country i mean there were issues the just the math questions with regard to the gadhafi government but generally the country was much better than it is today do you think people who made those decisions about overreaching the u.n. mandate do they have to face justice. well not yet there in fact we'll be having in that i don't know i don't know i think we're. into

a situation where martin that does not fit in with me that on the international level nor on the region and i see organizations that are not very very operate in and it's not even about the multilateralism responsibility and democracy if you know where who want to do the democracies in those countries i suppose at least democratic countries there should be some responsibility. mr sarkozy was defeated in the election mr obama that is that the only party you want when you want more no i'm asking you whether there is a responsibility for taking decisions that have major implications for hundreds of thousands of people there should be responsibility if you believe there was an investigation in iraq in the u.k. about iraq that led to some kind of blame me for the decision to go and for the kind of arguments that had been used but i don't think the international system today has a mechanism to look at this kind of decision in courage responsibility on the part

of freebie and players if the international system this is my old one and this is my or my role is not to add a new violation to the internet the number of violations of the international system my role is to try and convince the libyans look very very carefully at your own national interest your own national interests is not to fight each other to your own national interest is to unite and to rebuild your country and if you do with the international system will react to that positively but if you give those who interfere in your affairs domestic affairs the reasons and ways and instruments to interfere nobody will stop the well necessarily. i wish you all the slack in this very difficult that i take i really need that like i will need well i hope you get it at least from this capital but. we'll see what time will tell thank you very

much for sharing your things thank you encourage our viewers to keep this conversation going in our social media pages and i hope this year again same place same time here on all the parts. so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have it's crazy for and let

it be an arms race is also a spearing dramatic development only really i'm going to resist i don't see how that strategy will be successful very critical. to sit down and talk. how can we help citizens become healthier and happier than poor fools to 7th of july sorry on to this news program into one if you think something should open the health congress open 1st of all the little details don't have also been formed dot com 16 blocks. the russian president says the united states is destabilizing world security but he made putin's warning came as he welcomed delegates to the opening of the same petersburg international economic forum.