speckled position then that. it's not an easy position but a when i accepted this. job. a thought the unity of the security council on syria was not cool but the division has been there since 28 haven't until now i thought that there was superficial unity on libya what i discovered later was that this was really thin and one or other big event that unity can collapse and that's what's happening now is libya have been playing in the bus 2 months since the mist that half those movement against tripoli have been playing to produce a product from the security council and it is very very difficult for for now the united nations which you now represent is i would claim indirectly complicit in the

disintegration of libya and by the time i mean the misuse security council resolution 1073 which was used as a pretext for violent regime change in that country do you think the u.n. still has the moral mandate of trying to how in anything. you are knowledgeable enough about the u.n. to know that you can not talk about do you and in general i don't that comes to this. it was a security council decision what i thought then about this resolution is very different they can tell you so it was a security council decision and the security council is the present that they will have the will of state. not all of the united nations as an entity but also the collective security thinking of the states. including

the major states at this point. this for don't ask people who work for the u.n. about their sold sometimes to a peak was what the security council produces or doesn't produce well the reason i'm asking it about this is because i know that you've been very disappointed by general haftar you over to allude to that essentially uprooting the result of your own work of trying to bring the parties together but wasn't his offensive on tripolitania in a way the replay of events back in the spring of 2011 when calls for pilot a call dollop were ultimately used as a prelude for you know lateral military action no i think the situation is very the in the sense that. you have you had the regime established for 4 decades and you had some protests against this regime and then you had an external

intervention military intervention by nato. i accept or not accept the but q. was a un resolution used to legitimize this intervention now you have a completely different situation you have a government in tripoli that is internationally recognized since early 2016 and you have a challenger coming from the east and divorce assisted by many members of the words there have been that throughout a number of countries in the world including of the security council supporting so the situation is quite different somehow now what we need from the security council is not to call upon anybody to intervene militarily we were in the security council to chord for the strain for the respect and the arms embargo against all the but the supplants you've been very critical of how open 3 the arms embargo that you

just mentioned is being violated i mean it's done in all point of view for everybody and what i find interesting is that various countries who support various sides and libya i don't even using it as a pretext to wage allegations against one another isn't that an indication that all sides to the libyan conflict have made peace with the war. all sides. are getting support from outside there are between 6 or 7 countries and then countries now sending weapons to libya recently some of those buses in libya wanted to boost the morale of their troops that they are not alone but they haven't the national support so they won the extra my wealth not only importing these a.p.c.'s because it was basically apc's into libya but also all of the filming them and having given us a good late thing and all this in order as

a morale booster for their own troops but from our point of view this is a blatant violation and we know that those nations so far have been discreet way lesions in the open. which perhaps suggests that all the parties while playing pay some lip service to political process by the fasting that knowledge is always a logical for and it's not in addition a reason for the security council to react because the security council 1st does his duty to look after the peace and security in the word and does now contain conflict in libya expand to the rest of libya possibly to neighboring countries therefore it is important that the security council takes care of it but on top of that these them by you have a relation that we are witnessing hitting the hope of the security council

credibility so when i said yes to the security council your arms embargo is becoming a cynical joke i meant it because if people not only important but so it of brag about it and the security council does nothing what would be left of the multilateral collective security council it will die but don't you think that this multilateral security council has already effectively rearranged itself because you've been very critical of advances on tripolitania but not of the un security council members including russia made very strong condemnations of his move in fact general haftar received almost a presidential treatment last month in in paris which i would say suggests perhaps all the major parties to the conflicts we had to if you are exceptions are more or less ok with what he has been doing i haven't criticize most that have

harshly i have just been faithful to the facts i put them before the security council members some of them i accepted them some of them say. i mean have a behavior that is different that's why when we started this conversation i told you i was counting on a minimal unity within the council what i'm discovering more and more is that on the one hand this minimal unity is more or less preserved but on the other hand many companies including members of the security council are behaving in their own way so it is very hard for me in libya to explain this to the libyans to explain to the libyans the why they hear gunfire is saying that they support me that in fact that they are doing their own things in libya you mentioned unity and i think we have are rare occurrence now that both russia and the united states which usually

if find themselves on opposite sides in any geopolitical game they both blocked u.k. draft that resolutions on libya can downing general are. both moscow and washington seem to be ok with what he has been doing how do you explain that do you see any convergence between how russia and the united states approach the events in libya. they agree on any fight against terrorists they be quiet but i would say not in alliance but similar and they have similar that the 2 would and they also agree on the necessity to keep the libyan oil flowing because this is important for the sort of oil market and also as the billet. and also for the food for the libyans themselves. now for the rest i don't think they actually more than that. but when it comes to libya i think that

from my today's visit to moscow a. more hopeful that russia. will have the realistic. assessment of the military situation on the ground and why 2 months have passed since the offensive against tripoli that now they have an idea that is a stalemate and this stalemate. cannot remain a stalemate it will necessarily deteriorate in something else so it leaves a lot of room for that that is to use the libyan scene and in fact that which if you attacks in libya now has increased his attacks in the past 2 months 5 attacks from dies on top of the. the escalation can bring countries through into the field day that plea and the conflict which means that other countries will also interfere

so far it has been political diplomatic and was the exports of arms but i am afraid that one day will come with one or other country will interfere what could possibly spark that interact intervention if this is a clear defeat in their eyes and for either side this could be the case now i heard you say before that general doesn't have the support of tripoli but clearly the un backed prime minister fayyad us also rush doesn't have the support of the rest of the country in fact he has major difficulties exerting his authority even within the capital how do you think the international community at this point should approach you know they say game of ascertaining the level of support and who is legitimate in libyan politics who is legitimate is a question that is crucial in libya and the one who needs to decide is the libyan people that is why we should carefully slowly gradually legally

go into elections today you have basically 2 parliaments you have basically 2 governments you have basically in me that is not considered the country is made by the other side so everybody labels the other the way he wants because that is a very deep crisis of legitimacy and this crisis of legitimacy cannot be solved by going to be ins themselves that is. why the national conference we will it can go on for a april 14th but it was delayed because of the offensive was meant to mend the road towards the election so we sold not because i am fond of democracy or because i want to explore democracy everywhere this is not my plan but in all of those 2 swing with very specific issue who is the institution of the business at the mint and and libya we have to take

a very short break now but we'll be back in just a few moments thinking and. nobody could see coming that false confessions would be that prevalent in the spot the waste the phone flick of the. books any interrogations out there what you'll see is threat promise threat promise threat why a lie a lie the process of interrogation is designed to put people in just that frame of mind make the most comfortable makes them want to get out and don't take no for an answer don't accept their denials she said therefore would. send a statement that i would be home by that time the next day there's a culture on accountability and police officers know that they can engage in misconduct that has nothing to do with solving their crime.

and. what politicians do. you put themselves on the line they did accept the reject. so when you want to be president and she. wanted. you to going to be press this is one. before 3 in the morning can't be good for. the interest that falls in the water using the. welcome back to worlds apart on film a had of the united nations support mission in

libya this is tell me just before the break we started discussing a conference which was a plan that by general have to advance and trip at a time and he already gained a lot of control over additional territory. do you think whenever you bring that subject of a conference again in the future do you think. territorial gains will in any way change the juxtaposition of the. arrangement of forces sure that is the believe they put forward and force it perform on many issues 1st that is now a thrust the has been sort of child trust was never there in libya if you have it i mean that whole war is by you know with trail of trust yes i'm with that but we brought people together in the bus 2 years we brought people together 2nd it's important the people who are the stakeholders who are not present the noble w.

or not present us with the know they're in much part of the political process so the you cannot go into the political process without the suspicion of hostilities because as long as they that these are going on it means that one of the 2 both is believes that this is going to win which i don't believe is the case i believe that the choice is between the long war. it's a situation of course that it does but not with quickly isn't that also true that one of the parties militarily has been much stronger than the other i mean that can be really ignore the fact that general hofstra having started with a small battalion has amassed a significant force that's been progressing towards the in the west of the country i mean he certainly doesn't look like somebody who wants to negotiate his position within the country's politics i agree with you however i think you would have to one day you would have towards it i think reality the reality on the ground is much

more complex than everybody believes it is true that a lot of that that it to the is now under his control but that is true also that the majority of the population is not on that has controlled so far and. the the guys who are fighting against him with it generally the members of the groups that are or the size by the international community in tripoli you have those or imprisons it will be those but you have also a lot of number or floor gangs local people local militias it's at that it's at the water not listed. at all by the international community so the spectrum or those who are opposing him into a bully is larger that is why the battle is more difficult and on top of that you have a lot of people coming from other cities from zawiya from misrata from the m a z group to the rescue of the youth india group so that is why i'm saying the e.u.

the choice is between a long war and it's a station a facility you often refer to you mr also russia's u.n. backed prime minister for you and legal nights you have recognized the prime minister but obviously you know that many people in libya question his mandate he overstayed his mandate for a couple of here is that there's also issues about. his ability to exercise control i understand that one year and speaks in his favor at the u.n. is actually no backing him personally but rather the process that the u.n. has launched but there comes a point when somebody has to ask a question about the i think it's an efficiency of the u.n. process i still sure that it's about the libyan people and not about the united nations it's institutional role and its reputation well if the security council doesn't take any measures in order to establish its credibility it was all these

for your patience or go or for and violations of u.n. resolution u.n. security council resolution yes the credibility of the u.n. is a play now locally what we have is an international in the government i will not sing in your presence the praise of the government i will not do that because of course that the government has made my life extend a difficult to push that government to work together instead of quarreling within the presidential council i have wasted a lot of my time still. you do not want to produce a vacuum you have your endurance when you should what we were working for was a replacement of the presidential council and a placement of the present cabinet by consensus among the 2 largest forces in the country that's what we will in a way i think for 1st by bringing the 2 assemblies together but they failed to

agree at the end on the mechanism then we brought mr half that and mr severs together and the most crucial point was supposed to be the national conference in that is where in number of issues concerning the constitution the election there were 3 distribution with to be solved by the libyans themselves speaking about the labor. themselves i heard you compare the libyan situation to the civil war in your native flab and on saying that the libyans for wasting their national tragic you commit suicide and i think that presumes that ordinarily be and still have a say about what's happening around them and to them is that the really big case you know ordinary libyans really influence the lands on the ground no i i tried to play the or pinion i have tried to play the academics the mayors the journalists the doctors the professionals the technocrats i try to tell them you need

to sort of devise is a concept of national interest that is different from the politicians interest. but this have to confess will take a generation because for a long time these 3 provinces forming a surface that is almost as big as saudi arabia is too big for a population that the sketch was a strong local identities but we took care of them i mean the economic measures we brought of the dinar from $1.00 to $10.00 do not and they have to for me not we the price of commodities in september went down by 30 to 50 percent we are trying to have the national oil company remain united and preserve its and we did it was the oil crisis and the crisis in july last july and we did it again was the shut out of

field in february so we are trying to put the national interest of the libyans independent from the maneuvers which are so often very mean of the debian politicians let me bring you back to this question of people's participation because libya was raised to what it is today primarily because. somebody number of countries wanted to make a battery and wanted to make it more democratic in those i would argue it wasn't such a horrible place to begin with it was one of the most developed countries in north africa you see it on the border of many international institutions concerned with peace building and calls of prevention do you think the libya case all force any broader story about how to improve lives for people around the why was openly opposed to the war against iraq in

2003 but they went to iraq for the u.n. because they felt that what was done was done the plea was if it accompli now we need to help the iraqis rebuild their country. was not of this similar feelings in 2011 concerning libya but they went to libya because we need why. it is not for the u.s. and it is not for it is because when you feel that you have a kid in the family that this says you do not say i go in to succeed or not this is i mean i understand your intentions but i think you also have to make broad their judgment in a made broader conclusions because if you keep committing the same mistake over and over again because as what kind of mistake did i commit trying not talking about young talking about the international community about the many western countries who believe that they have it in themselves the knowledge they expertise of

improving lives because the micro saying that that was it was a was a mistake well they said that involves iraq as well there but that didn't stop him from improving or trying to improve felipe and i think it's by now those countries more reluctant to go into this kind of crusades i think the as one by the way i met a couple who once said we went into iraq and we all could buy the and it was a disaster that we didn't go into syria and it was a disaster we went into libya but we didn't talk about it we left immediately and it was a deal i think you're referring to of president obama hero gordon go to full of gold well i heard president obama say something to them and said it was a mistake or maybe he said it was a mistake but what he amount was. the mistake you meant not the intervention not to have use of the u.n. security mandate but by not doing war post intervention then i want to ask

a somebody who has very broad expertise in these affairs do you think the west could have done more post intervention to put libya on the right track once that he was murdered once his government his army was disbanded do you think the west would have done more to improve life and the b.n. it could well what exactly could it it could have played the better. and institution building not the west necessarily but if. you have allowed the sort of international organizations to come and help the libyans because libya libya is a country like by the way where you have a lot of traders there the doctor engineers that so you needed just some kind of. interest where it was needed i think in this kind of situation where it is. is police and justice police in order to have

domestic police for people to move around and justice because there are usually after this kind of conflict a lot of cases before maybe once this was the case in the about and this is the case in the bill i think if we had given more attention to that as international community that was crucial what was done was a regime change the rule after the new interest after that and this was not the best way to go and it would have been probably best not to wound to the whole story but this is another matter we are not there i think it is that he today can ask him very shortly you often talk about impunity but there is also impunity about making that fateful decision about intervening in a troublesome but no other horrible country i mean there were issues legitimate questions with regard to the gadhafi government 1 but generally the country was much better than it is today do you think people who made those decisions about

overreaching the u.n. mandate do they have to face justice. well not good there in fact we'll be out of it in that i don't know i don't know i think we're. into a situation where martin that does not fit with the way neither on the international level nor on the region and i see organizations that are not very very operate in and it's not even about the multilateralism is more civility and democracy if you know where who wouldn't do that democracies in those countries i suppose at least democratic countries there should be some responsibility. mr sarkozy was defeated in the election mr obama that is that the only point you want when you want more no i'm asking you whether there is a responsibility for taking decisions that have major implications for hundreds of thousands of people there should be responsibility if you believe there was an investigation in iraq in the u.k. about iraq that led to some kind of blaming for the decision to go and for the kind

of arguments that had been used but i don't think the international system today has a mechanism to look at this kind of decision in courage responsibility on the part of freebie and players if the international system this is my or what and this is my or my role is not to add a new violation to the internet there's a number of violations of the international system my role is to try and convince the libyans look very very carefully at your own national interest your own national interests is not to fight each other to your own national interest is to unite and to rebuild your country and if you do with the international system will react to that positively but if you give those who interfere in your affairs domestic affairs reasons and ways and instruments to interfere nobody will

stop the well necessary man. i wish you all the best lack in this very difficult that i take i really need that like i would need to help you get to that place from this capital but. we'll see what time will tell thank you very much for sharing your things thank you i encourage our viewers to keep this conversation going in our social media pages and i hope this year again same place same time here on all the part. of. this in petersburg international economic forum is

a unique event in today's business world. over the last 21 years the forum has become a leading global platform for discussing the key economic issues facing russia emerging markets the world thousands of business community members attend the forum to address today using vital issues. special forum coverage on r.t. . as a wise man once said currency wars lead to trade wars more so we've had currency wars that's been going on now for 10 years 15 years really particularly with china you know they artificially keep their currency low export their way into becoming a large economy and now this is led to trade worse. now pretty much declaring secession from the global economy as we go to neo mercantile ism age of

globalization and lot of tourism dollars ation is over. the globe we've got a few little hot spots there the encroaching hot war scenario is upon us. how can we help citizens become healthy and happy. to some of the july business programs into russia to make solution open house now the festival details come to most open forum dot com 16 plus. the russian president say he's a brick a nuclear treaties will destabilize the world stressing the need for a dialogue between major powers. today the most significant thing these negotiations between countries with the largest nuclear potential well i think could be.