hello and welcome to all the part of the last think you have seen many unnecessary of wars but even among them the libyan catastrophe stands out as a one time loss of life and infrastructure is there anything on anyone who can still put libya together again i want to discuss that i'm now i'm joined by i guess i'm full i may have of the united nations support mission in libya this is i'm as good to talk to you always thank you very much for the time thank you for inviting me now you know over the years i've interviewed many u.n.

and a voice on syria and they all felt obliged to express their resolve about their mission but there was always the sounds of hopelessness of what they were trying to achieve and i suspect that you may be even in the more difficult position than that. it's nothing is a position but a when i accepted this. job. i thought the unity of the security council on syria was not cool but the division has been there since 28 government and. i told that there was superficial unity on libya what they discovered late there was that this was really thin and one or the big event that unity can collapse and that's what's happening now was libya have been playing in the bust 2 months since the year that half those

movement against tripoli have been playing to produce a pearl. from the security council and it is very very difficult so for now the united nations which you now represent is i would claim indirectly complicit in the disintegration of libya and by that i'm i mean they misused security council resolution 1073 which was used as a pretext for violent regime change in that country do you think the u.n. still has the moral mandate of trying to how to believe in anything. you're knowledgeable enough about the u.n. to know that you can not go couple do you and then jennifer i learn that comes to this it was a security council decision what i thought then about this resolution is very different they can tell you so it was a security council decision and the security council is the present that they will

have the will of state. of the united nation as an entity but also the collective security thinking of the states including the major states at this point. therefore don't ask people who work for the u.n. about their thoughts sometimes are not to be was what the security council produces or doesn't produce well the reason i'm asking it about this is because i know that you've been very disappointed by general haftar you're already alluded to that essentially uprooting the result of your own work of trying to bring the parties together but wasn't his offensive on triple it on a in a way the replay of events back in the spring of 2011 when calls for pilot a call dollop were ultimately used as a prelude for you know actual military action no i think the situation is very

different. in this sense. you have you had the regime established for 4 decades and you had some protests against this regime and then you had an external intervention military intervention by the it will accept or not accept the but q. was was a un resolution used to legitimize this intervention now you have a completely different situation you have a government into probably that is internationally called nice since early 2016 and you have a challenger coming from the east and diverse existed they were many members of the words there have been throughout a number of countries in the world including of the security council supporting so the situation is quite different somehow now what we need from the security council is not to call upon anybody to intervene militarily we were in the security council

to cord for the strain for that is fact on the arms embargo or against all the but this have been you have been very critical of how open the arms embargo that you just mentioned is being violated i mean it's done in all point of view for everybody and what i find interesting is that various countries who support various sides and libya i don't even using it as a pretext to wage allegations against one another isn't that an indication that all sides to the libyan conflict have made peace with the war. all sides. are getting support from outside there are between 6 or 7 countries and 10 countries now sending weapons to libya recently some of those spotted in libya wanted to boost the morale of their troops that they are not alone but they have international support so they want the extra my it or not only importing these

a.p.c.'s because it was basically apc's into libya but also or for the filming them and having given us that kool-aid thing and all this in order as a morale booster for their own troops but from our point of view this is a blatant violation and we know that the nation so far have been discrete now whale asians are in the open. which perhaps suggests that all the parties while playing pay some lip service to political process by investing that knowledge is always a logical for and it's not in addition a reason for the security council to react because the security council 1st does his duty to look after the peace and security in the word and does now contain conflict in libya expand to the best of libya possibly to neighboring

countries therefore it is important that the security council takes care of it but on top of that this embody who have a relation that we are witnessing hitting the hope of the security council credibility so when i said yes to the security council your arms embargo is becoming a cynical joke i meant it because if people not only important but so little of brag about it and the security council does nothing what would be left of the multilateral collective security council it will die but don't you think that this multilateral security council has already effectively rearranged itself because you've been very critical of advances on tripolitania but not of the un security council members including russia made very strong condemnations of his move in fact general have to receive almost

a presidential treatment last month in in paris which i would say suggests perhaps all the major parties to the conflict may have to if you are exceptions are more or less ok with what he has been doing i haven't criticize most that have harshly i have just been faithful to the facts i put them before the security council members some of them i accepted them some of them say yes. any have a behavior that is different that's why when we started this conversation i told you i was counting on a minimal unity within the council what i'm discovering more and more is that on the one hand this minimal unity is more or less preserved but on the other hand many countries including members of the security council are behaving in their own way so it is very hard for me in libya to explain this to the libyans to explain to the libyans that why they hear gunfire is saying that they support me that in fact

they are doing their own things in libya you mentioned unity and i think we have there really are currents now that both russia and the united states which usually if find themselves on opposite sides in any geopolitical game they both blocked u.k. draft that resolutions on libya can downing general are. both moscow and washington seem to be ok with what he has been doing how do you explain that do you see any convergence between how russia and the united states approach the events in libya. they agree on any fight against terrorists they they quite. i would say not in alliance but similar they have similar attitude and they also agree on the necessity to keep the libyan oil flowing because this is important for the sort of oil market and also it's the billet and also for the food

for the libyans themselves. now for the rest i don't think they are getting more than that. but when it comes to libya i think that from my today's visit to to more school a. more hopeful. russia. will have that he enlisted. assessment of the military situation on the ground and why 2 months have passed since the offensive against tripoli that now they have an idea that is a stalemate and this stalemate. cannot remain a stalemate it will necessarily deteriorate in something else so it leaves a lot of room for that that is to use the libyan scene and in fact that which if

you attacks in libya now has increased his attacks in the past 2 months 5 attacks from dies on top of the. the escalation can bring countries through into the field day that plea and the conflict which means that other countries will also interfere so far it has been political diplomatic and was the exports of arms but i am afraid that one day will come with one or other country who will interfere what could possibly spark that interact intervention if this is a clear defeat in the horizon for either side this could be the case now i heard you say before that gen doesn't have the support of tripoli but clearly the un backed prime minister fayyad us also rush doesn't have the support of the rest of the country in fact he has major difficulties exerting his authority even within the capital how do you think the international community at this point should approach you know they say game of ascertaining the level of support and who is

legitimate in libyan politics who is legitimate is a question that is crucial in libya and the one who needs to decide is the libyan people that is what we should carefully slowly gradually illegally go into elections today you have basically 2 parliaments you have basically 2 governments you have basically in army that is not considered the country is made by the other side so everybody labels the other the way he wants because that is a very deep crisis of legitimacy and this crisis of legitimacy cannot be solved by going to be ins themselves that is. why the national conference we we're working on for a april 14th but it was delayed because of the offensive was meant to bend there or towards the election so we sold not because i am fond of democracy or

because i want to explore democracy everywhere this is not my plan but in all and go to school with very specific issue who is the institution of the business with them and and libya we have to take a very short break now but we'll be back in just a few moments they can't. see officer. to get up off the ground sir begin to. hurt them freeze on the sounds of an mit grown man mislead essentially. through his. twisted away from the officer. of his group.

the officer did they kind of lunge for the web in one smiths and they would have been done treece one at the time didn't hit him i never saw any contact with. any kind of went back to where they were so the officers back here there again 15 feet apart at this point and that's when the officer is gone and he's going to turn 3. welcome back to worlds apart with guests until i may have the united nations support mission in libya this is tell me just before the break we started discussing a conference which was a pattern that by general advance and. he already gained a lot of control over additional territory. do you think

whenever you bring that subject of a conference again in the future do you think he's territorial gains will in any way change the juxtaposition of the. arrangement of forces sure that is the police they put forward and force it perform on many issues 1st that is now a thrust the has been sort of child trust was never there in years of it i mean that whole war is about you know with trail of trust yes i missed that but we brought people together in the bus 2 years we brought people together the 2nd it's important the people who are the stakeholders who are not present the noble w ordered not to present this with the know they have much part of the political process so the you cannot go into the political process without the suspicion of hostilities because as long as it was then it is going on it means that one of the top of his believes that this is going to win which i don't believe is the case i

believe that the choice is between the long war. it's a situation of course that it does but not with quickly isn't that also true that one of the parties militarily has been much stronger than the other i mean the kind of really ignore the fact that general hofstra having started with a small battalion has amassed a significant force that's been progressing towards the in the west of the country i mean he certainly doesn't look like somebody who wants to negotiate his position within the country's politics i agree with you however i think you would have to one day you would have forces should i think reality the reality on the ground is much more complex everybody believes it is true that a lot of the territory is now under his control but the true also that the majority of the population is not and that is controlled so far and. the guys

who are fighting against him with it generally be members of the groups that are or the size by the international community in tripoli you have those or imprisoned that it will be those but you have also a lot of number or floor gangs local people local militias it's at that it's at the water not listed. at all by the international community so the spectrum or those who are opposing him into the police is larger that is why the battle is more difficult and on top of the you have a lot of people coming from other cities from from misrata from the m a z group to the rescue of the youth in the group so that is why i am saying the e.u. and the choice is between a long war and decision a facility you often refer to you mr also russia's u.n. backed prime minister by your own legal nights you have recognized the prime minister but obviously you know that many people in libya question his mandate he

overstayed his mandate for a couple of here is that there is also issues about. his ability to exercise control i understand that one year and speaks in his favor at the u.n. is actually no backing him personally but rather the process that the un has launched but there comes a point when somebody has to ask a question about the efficacy and efficiency of the un process i still sure that it's about the libyan people and not about the united nations it's institutional role and its reputation well if the security council doesn't take any measures in order to establish its credibility it was all these for your patience of the symbiote ago or for and violations of u.n. resolution u.n. security council resolution yes the credibility of the u.n. is at the play now locally what we have is an international in the government i will not sing in your presence the praise of the government i will not do that

because of course the government has made my life extend a difficult to push the government to work together instead of quarreling within the presidential council i have wasted a lot of my time still. you do not want to produce a vacuum you have your endurance when you should what we were working for was a replacement of the presidential council and it a placement of the present cabinet by consensus among the 2 large forces in the country that's what we will get away i think for 1st by bringing the 2 assemblies together but they failed to agree at the end on the mechanism then we brought mr half that and mr severs together and the most crucial point was supposed to be the national conference in that is where in number of issues concerning the constitution the election there were 3 distribution with to be solved by the

libyans themselves speaking about the labor. themselves i heard you compare the libyan situation to the civil war in your name to flovent on saying that the libyans for wasting their national tragedy commit suicide and i think that presumes that or did they really be and still have a say about what's happening around them and to them is that really big case in ordinary libyans really influence the lands on the ground no i i tried to play the or pinion i have tried to play the academics the mayors the journalists the doctors the professionals the technocrats i try to tell them you need to sort of devise is. a concept of national interest that is different from the politicians interest. but this have to confess will take a generation because for a long time these 3 provinces forming

a surface that is almost as big as saudi arabia is too big for a population that the scepter was a strong local identities but we took care of them i mean the economic measures we brought of the dinar from $1.00 to $10.00 do not and a half to 4 be enough we the price of commodities in september went down by 30 to 50 percent we are trying to have the national oil company remain united and preserve its and we did it was the oil crisis and the crisis in july last july and we did it again was the shut out of field in february so we are trying to put the national interest of the libyans independent from the maneuvers which are so often very mean of the debian petitions let me bring you back to this question

of people's participation because libya was raised to what it is today primarily because. somebody number of countries wanted to make a battery and wanted to make it more democratic in those i would argue it wasn't such a horrible place to begin with it was one of the most developed countries in north africa you see it on the border of many international institutions concerned with peace building and calls of prevention do you think the libya case all forces any broader story about how to improve lives for people around the why was openly opposed to the war against iraq in 2003 but they went to iraq for the u.n. because they felt that what was done was done the plea was if it accompli now we need to help the iraqis rebuild their country. was not dissimilar to feelings in

2011 concerning libya but they went to libya because we need why. it is not for the u.s. and it is not for it is because when you feel that you have a kid in the family that this says you do not say i go in to succeed or not this is i mean i understand your intentions but i think you also have to make broad their judgment. made broader conclusions because if you keep committing the same mistakes over and over again because as what kind of mistake did i commit trying it i'm not talking about young talking about the international community about many western countries who believe that they have it in in themselves the knowledge they expertise of improving lives in the midst of micro saying that that was it was a was a mistake well they said that involves iraq as well there but that didn't stop him from improving or trying to improve and i think it's by now those countries more reluctant to go into this kind of crusades i think the as

one by the way american observer once said we went into iraq and we all could buy the and it was a disaster that we didn't go into syria and it was a disaster we went into libya but we didn't talk about it we left immediately and it was a doll i think you're referring to of president obama hero gordon go to full of gold well i heard president obama say something to them and said this was a mistake or libya he said it was a mistake but what he amount was he blamed the mistake you meant not the intervention not that views of the u.n. security mandate but by not doing war post intervention then i want to ask a somebody who has a very broad expertise in these affairs do you think the west could have done more post intervention to put libya on the right track or was that he was murdered once he's government his army was disbanded do you think the west would have done more to improve life in the b.n.

it could what what exactly could it could have played the better. in institution building not the west necessarily but if. you had allowed the sort of international organizations to come and help the libyans because libya libya is a country like by the way where you have a lot of traders there the doctor engineers that so you needed just some kind of. interest where it was needed i think in this kind of situation where it is. is police and justice police in order to have domestic police for people to move around and justice because they're usually after this kind of conflict a lot of cases before maybe once this was the case in the about and this is the case in that because i think if we had given more attention to that as international community that was crucial what was done was

a regime change the rule after the new and that is stuff that this was not the best way to go and it would have been probably best not to warn to the whole story but this is another matter we are not that i think it is that he today can ask him very shortly you often talk about impunity but there is also impunity about making that fateful decision about intervening in a troublesome but know of the horrible country i mean there were issues legitimate questions with regard to the gadhafi government 1 but generally the country was much better than it is today do you think people who made those decisions about overreaching the u.n. mandate do they have to face justice. well not yet there in fact we'll be having that i don't know i don't know i think we're. into a situation where martin that does not fit with the way neither on the

international level nor on the region and i see organizations that are not very very operate in and it's not even about the multilateralism responsibility of democracy if you know where you want to do the democracies in those countries i suppose at least democratic countries there should be some responsibility. mr sarkozy was defeated in the election mr obama that is that the only point you want when you want more no i'm asking you whether there is a responsibility for taking decisions that have major implications for hundreds of thousands of people there should be responsibility if you believe there was an investigation in iraq in the u.k. about iraq that led to some kind of blaming for the decision to go and for the kind of arguments that had been used but i don't think the international system today has a mechanism to look at this kind of decision in courage responsibility on the part of freebie and players if the international system this is my old one and this is

my or my role is not to add a new violation to the internet there's a number of violations of the international system my role is to try and convince the libyans look very very carefully at your own national interest your own national interests is not to fight each other to your own national interest is to unite and to rebuild your country and if you do with the international system will react to that positively but if you give those who interfere in your affairs domestic affairs and reasons and ways and instruments to interfere nobody will stop the necessary man. i wish you all the best lack in this very difficult undertaking i would need that i would need to help you get to that place from this capital but. we'll see what time will tell thank you very much for sharing things thank you i encourage our viewers to keep this conversation going in our social

media pages and i hope to see you again same place same time here on all the part. where. nobody could see coming that false confessions would be that prevalent in the spot relationships wrongful conviction. and any interrogations out there what you'll see

is threat promise threat promise threat lie a lie a lie the process of them turkishness designed to put people in just that frame of mind make the most comfortable makes them want to get out and don't take no for an answer don't accept their denials she said therefore which. sat on the statement that i would be home by that time the next day there's a culture on accountability and police officers know that they can engage in misconduct that has nothing to do with all the crime. in the road for treason made the french president 3 steps down as leader of the conservative party triggering a contest with 11 count of the snowballing. breaking cover a leak told you a recording suggests the u.s. is failing to unite venezuela's opposition against president would do or. believe better than under bush just.