and then the rains will be forced to come to the table you know for some kind of solution on american terms but you know i think that is dreaming that's. a low in welcome across the top we're all things considered i'm peter lavelle after a breakdown in negotiations presidents trump and she may soon again meet to hash out a trade deal the stakes couldn't be higher both sides would need a perceived wind failure could witness the global economy divided into rival blocks and a dual internet world. like

in the trade war i'm joined by my guest heather zuma in washington she is a financial analyst as well as vice president of vision for fund distributors also in washington we have john gong he is a professor at the university of international business and economics located in beijing china and in forest hills we crossed to michael hudson he is a professor of economics at the university of missouri kansas city as well as author of forgive them their debts a financial times 2018 book of the year all right cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate heather let me go to you 1st in washington it seems to me i mean you know we're all covering this so-called trade war you know beat by beat pulse by pulse but you know you and the larger screen scheme of things it's really about who is going to dominate this century economically and technologically the united states is fighting very hard to preserve the status quo its position in the world and we can focus in on. the tech

sector and this is really what it's more about it's who's going to dominate and that's why it's taking so hard to get an agreement and it's that's why it's so politically important more so for trump because he's up for reelection but of course the chinese leadership has to come through for the chinese people because well they've been on a pretty good roll for the last 30 years they want to keep it going go ahead heather that is that is very true i think it's important to stay where we are in the tariff negotiations the u.s. has imposed thus far 25 percent and $200000000000.00 worth of goods coming from china and that was recently increased from only 10 percent now china has also retaliated anywhere between 5 and 20 percent tariff on $110000000000.00 worth of u.s. goods i think it's also important to remember that we buy we meaning the u.s. a lot more goods from china than they do from us so at some point in time china will run out of terrorists to retaliate on and i and so they would may resort to

other measures of retaliation outside of tariffs same question to you michael in forest hills here i mean it really is about a paradigm shift one power not wanting that shift to occur and another one feels that it's finally reached its place on the global stage i mean the this is these are piers they are genuinely piers now economically but it's something the u.s. has never had to confront go ahead michael well that doesn't stop you needed. more economic surrender it wants china and russia and other countries all could be dependent on united states information technology. dollar and finance. culture so that if these countries do something america doesn't like it can impose sanctions on them that will hold whole apart all of the connections of their economy no other economy is going to go along. this china and any other

economy is going to say we'd better be independent from any ability of the united states to suddenly disrupt their activity by imposing sanctions so we're going to have our own arrangements for food for oil information technology so the but what it was doing is. china together with other countries to make turn to ways to in effect trump is imposing sanctions on the united states well it's very interesting because john i mean what i want hang on let me go to john and then we could make it a free for all john but you know what you know with the kind of relationship that is occurring during the so-called trade war here i mean doesn't this give initiative to for the chinese to actually innovate even more if they're going to be cut off from these technologies and these products and these consumers then they can do it on their own end and in some ways it seems like a kind of a wise move because he does have to swallow the bitter pill now and you'll be much

better later so i mean i gan i mean kind of echoing what michael is saying right here is that in a sense here by targeting specific companies they're actually spurring innovation in china itself go ahead john. well i guess you're talking about targeting while this is actually very true so far in china in the u.s. being you know working where well in terms of economic integration this you know post-race going on is also very large operation here in china representing something like 402500 1000000000 dollars of interest here so the success of global value chain that meaning global very chim production across the pacific has been credible to successful but so far you know the chinese medicine learned that this is in danger now who always a prime example of that this motto is you know you can have blind faith is the motto and this actually drives corporate china further into self in ovation self indigenous being self-reliant so i think this is

a. very dangerous sign coming out that the global very choose stories in is in shambles right now and also want to get a point to just said let's chew that the united states maintains a very large trade deficit with china some point china's going to roll out goes to put ontario something but porn is there 40 percent of the chinese exports to manage things actually so she was corporate america operating here in china and that means that a lot of these types of hitting products that actually imported about american companies into u.s. and altimeter the tariff all paid by by american consumers you know the studies out there are pointing out that the average burden for american family is going to be somewhere between 700 dollars to 1000 dollars so sooner or later people going to realize this you know the prices at wal-mart at amazon dot com is going up and the average american working families up footing the bill for this so it's actually not in the americas interest to you know just. and this is not just one way street i

mean the exports coming from china to the u.s. they are all a socialist. the benefits of quitting to copper america and you know the goods. if you bought american families and the people of this ok how do you want to jump in there go ahead a lot's been said a lot yeah i mean. i guess i'll be the one person to push back but i'm on with 2 professors and i'm not a professor so i will be cautious all raise my hand and i think the administration in the us i know that this also hurts us said it walmart has says said prices are going to have to go up and it also hurts china perhaps even more than the us and as a free market capitalist i mean i don't necessarily like the idea of tariffs or want to impose tariffs but i do understand the us the the administration u.s. trade teams position that china has been stealing our intellectual property for

many years and has forced joint ventures if you want to do business with china in beijing where you are john i think you have to transfer all your you form a joint venture and you transfer all of your trade secrets to them and then they can use that data or they are using that had that data but what are you going to trade secret joint venture a company but if it's a joint venture how are you getting out if it's a joint venture how is it fast. well that's good because china is not supposed to be able to give our trade secrets to their domestic companies that's putting our u.s. domestic manufacturers at a disadvantage and that's what we're targeting that well we want to have business which we should be able to do without doing that but everyone has to be fair and you have and they still do the joint ventures why because their profits to be made i mean we've known this for a very long time michael you were disagreeing jump in technology is universal there is no such thing as a trade secret that's like saying that china shouldn't grow its own mood because we grow up grow our food. when they're talking about trade secrets you're talking

about monopoly pricing in the united states once they have other countries china and others dependent on us. patent rights and monopolies just like the pharmaceutical companies that charge an enormous grazing regrowth that's not a trade secret when when a company by a late. normal trade in establishing a monopoly every other country has the right to produce it cos if some other country tries to exploit them by selling it in exploitative rent grabbing over and above us ok well john i know you're going what is it like knowledge of good job good job what is the technology theft in the so-called the theft of intellectual property so we're 1st of all to make the point that no country can make any progress significant progress on a technology of phones by just stating and and technology transfer coercion them self's corporate china has to be innovative and they have been climbing the

technology lead us no doubt about it and also i'm not going to defend it or snow you know that it's an actual property theft in china that's when it happens but a point is that i think the united states was talking about a state sponsored theft of intellectual property so i mean as a distinction here i'm not sure that's true i mean if you look at the u.s. t.r. rubber law is a busy second through all reports. he talks about theft of intellectual property rights he doesn't distinguish between you know it's individual companies or government sponsored a theft seems a very important distinction here i don't think there's a very solid evidence to support the idea that the chinese government is engaging the state sponsored saft systematic comprehensive set of corporate america's intellectual properties i don't think that's true there was a spot to the technology transfer again i want to make it again i mean the finish has a good enough to we have to make a distinction between the government and individual companies when individual company tossed american companies about for me and joint venture in china or course

the chinese side was that look you know what can you offer on the table is there any technology transfer you can you can offer us in exchange for something on the table and if you call that force technology transfer i'm not sure that's really force i mean this is a well that is that that's going on that's why when you go issue here that's why i said these companies willingly go into these joint ventures here had to finish out the 1st block of the program to groups like those who are against one maybe 3 against one go ahead 40 seconds have the replay we go to break again fly i'm sorry i just think again no no no problem this is fine it's not my position it's the president trump in the u.s. t.r.s. position in any not just a republican or democratic issue when there has been democratically important us from from the past president obama for example has filed 16 cases of what the world trade organization about chinese the chinese stealing our intellectual property as well as dumping goods like aluminum and steel on u.s.

soil in those most of those i think have been resolved but bernie sanders also saying that they have destroyed millions of u.s. american jobs a bill clinton in recently chuck schumer here in d.c. saying playing tough heather and ahead of them going on china has gotten not just a robot like i'm going to go over the united states nice little smile and hang on john but the chinese didn't steal any to. obs it was american corporations that did it it wasn't china ok are you going to tell your narrative they are going to go to we're going to go to our shores we're going to show our brains and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on trying to trade more say with a team. most people think to stand out in this business you need to be the 1st one on top of the story or the person with the loudest voice of the biggest raid in truth to stand down the news business you just need as the right questions demand the right answer

. questions. you know the 2017 the german newspaper developed published an article claiming that the european union the last 30000000000 euros as a result of its very anti russian sanctions. particularly affected eastern. many polish films went broke and he committed suicide. because i was of. the political right on the.

other kind of unknown. and then let's see in the. welcome back to cross talk where all things considered i'm peter all about trying to we're discussing trump straight war. ok let me go back to michael in forest hills look i'm for the president getting a good trade deal with china whatever that deal is then we have to talk about its nuts and bolts but i do support the american national interest i'm reaching out to have the right here ok i'm just trying to kind of peel back some of the impact of

propaganda do you hear me and stream media now i mean you know michael you know him currency manipulation what was quantitative easing ok i mean there are different terms for it ok but you know i mean i always pointing at china my why you know. i'll be all be i'll be very. controversial here. michael with a lot of people are just jealous of china's enormous success i mean it is it is the one of the most amazing economic miracles in such a short amount of time when i was a young man you know china you when you open up like a you know an atlas and you know the f.b.i. fact book you know like china was just not there to be the most populous country in the world that nobody ever really talked about it except for its godly there now we have to talk about it a lot and i've been to china it is a remarkable place to see now. a huge middle class but it's extraordinary i think you know. people are not really well informed what china is really all about

except for it's the new adversary which is so boring go ahead michael well china has succeeded and gotten rich by following the same policy that america followed in the 19th century to get rich it has a mixed economy and it uses the public sector to subsidize the basic needs transportation education health to provide these really so that employers do not have to pay workers a high enough price so that they can afford high priced housing like americans high priced health care the americans cannot acknowledge china is succeeding with a mixed economy which it call socialist but then you have to call the american economy socialist we have the government subsidizing the ip sec there are the military sectors subsidizing agriculture china is doing exactly what the united states does and the united states can't understand china because it would have to acknowledge that it itself is a mixed economy and that is anathema to the free enterprise academics you know

john is and i want to focus on that one question your mom about to ask john i want to ask heather and michael later is there a win win scenario as we go into this because the even. the terminology we use trade war is that someone has to win or lose i mean it's it's such a black and white issue the way it's portrayed in the media and i find that it's very dangerous because it's a war someone has to win and of course you don't want to lose and it could spread into other areas geopolitics in the military and which of course none of us want that to go happen so you know is a win win possible here because of the rhetoric coming out of the american media and the administration they make it sound like you know this is a an existential threat maybe it will be one day but certainly not now go ahead john. well the chinese scum has been very careful of using this word war i mean the

trade war up until the collapse of 11th which is which was about a month ago when vice premier little hook came to washington d.c. and in a negotiation for appox up to up to that point the chinese come in the press in china most of them you know national media is actually controlled by the government we have never used a war war to categorize what's going on between united states and china we always were talking about your trade friction but now i've seen official mention of this world war so i think the chinese government's position is change it a bit realizing that you know they can't just keep make concessions or concessions as some point they have the there's a line they have to join us and then in we know more any more in. recently just a few days ago a ministry of commerce issued a white paper lay out 3 conditions very clearly a force that if we're going to reach a deal or have to go back to you know before last year when the tassel impose order

additional have to be gone that's the 1st condition the 2nd issue is that the amount of. commitment china scum and hasn't is going to make doing this train a go she has to be reasonable and and the moderates you know words there's a reach between present she and present championing the summit meeting argentina in november that china is committed to buy a soda months and seems the. the the trade deficit some u.s. keeps worsening since last november american sat us made additional amount of demand that we have to increase imports from u.s. chinese come and say this has to be more the 3rd thing is that the force the macas of the talking about in that 150 page document that is the document you go shit between vice premier little her. ass to eliminate all those things regarding any legislative tongue to. on the chinese spot china's skull and thinks that's french upon the busy infringement upon china's sovereignty so so these are

the 3 issues that have to be resolved and the my opinion the disagreement is not so much respect to the substance of the americas concern for china structural issues or even the trade deficit among i think. even this amount that the loan issue right now is regarding the enforced americans and the other was the enforcement mechanism doesn't have to be going through legislative avenues they don't have to they have to the can influence a function of some of the and that's the bottom line that's the towards that's a very subtle things that the china's going to have very good point how they're i mean and it was one of the questions that i sent out to all of you here i mean the united states the mending structural changes and how china does in business in its own country i mean that is a bit of a reach isn't it i mean it shows a lot of disrespect. to the dominant and submissive country again that's not going to work now i mean like it or not as much as the american media doesn't understand

it china and the united states are roughly peers now ok and you have to start treating it as one go ahead heather well they should be piers i hope so and i don't want to trade war i mean i don't think anyone in the administration wants a trade war but it is our right to point out i think we'd all be in agreement that asking china to change things their structural policies for example their state owned enterprises. is maybe reaching too far like you said i think it's a threat to their international independence and then seeing as an infringement on their sovereignty as john rightly point pointed out but the fact is if we are dealing with things that have gone on for decades sense bill clinton helped china to the world trade organization in 2001 of stealing intellectual property theft and force joint venture. even though the americans want to do business with china where the 2 largest economies in the world of course the americans want to do business

with china we just don't want china to steal billions and billions of stuff from from americans in rep us all we will get voting this is really americans even the west and we're started fact and what have you i started this program you know when talking about this grand paradigm shift and that's really what's going on here i i i'm kind of it a miss you know going to michael and in forest hills the i mean it's not about intellectual property is there intellectual property theft i suppose there is ok but that's not the the game changer in all of this i think that she is thrown out there it's red meat for the media to show that america is a victim ok america's not a victim in all this that they see that you kind of trade agreements they've had with countries around the world since the 2nd world war it's all their own fault i do agree that donald trump is doing some really good things and far as straight is concerned and he has to do more but he has to has he has to realize he's not dealing with mexico here he's dealing with china go ahead michael well that is a trade war is really in this case

a war of economic system the united states once trying to do what russia did under yeltsin to our turn over its industry to let american financial institutions come in and really take ownership of chinese economic development so the question is what kind of a planned economy are you going to you know america has a centralized planned economy planned by waltz through china has a planned economy planned by politicians now who do you want to plan your economy american banks in their own interest in the financial sector which is creating debt or do you want a non financial life plan that he's not an actual industry actual labor actually raising the living standards instead so underneath that what they call a parade war is as war of economic systems and a war of willy. the multinational multilateral. or will it be unilateral then really what it is. that you as the u.s. economy going down there is wrong the u.s.

economy is far better off than china i mean in my opinion we have unemployment at the lowest levels in 50 years 3.6 percent wages are rising g.d.p. above 3 percent 7000000 job openings i don't think it's the same in china right now they have declining exports declining g.d.p. in 2018 the lowest in 28 years and the i.m.f. is actually downgrading china's forecasted growth so if you want anything on the merry go there's a shift in terms of those are nationalism versus. everybody hold your breath everybody hold your breath here we go john jump in go ahead john. your stats are wrong china's g.d.p. is 6.4 percent last quarter that's double the united states of china's exports and i'm going to go laying off data all gone lost last may the does the staff just came out last the dismay the policy may the exports close by 7.7 percent which the

united states there is less come but was there trying to trade yet had hoped. tear the exports was european union with c.n. that's the south asian southeast asian countries they're going by more than 10 percent so overall you know there's going to be some difficulties i admitted that i mean this this trade or is having. causing problems here in china and some american companies og will be a lot of china publicly moved to the philippines malaysia those companies doing that but let me tell you even if we. think about the wusa now if we leave how do you write off china's exports united states that's only representing something between $1.00 to $1.00 but 2 percent of china's g.d.p. so it's something that china scum as we can pair with and then would have to bear with if we go down in a very dangerous path so you know some point it's not going to keep make concessions again and ok to be ok john i made. you want to hang on i want to go to

heather had there 30 seconds because it was rather lopsided here go ahead heather go ahead well i just i think we had 150 page agreement or a draft of a proposed agreement which we did between the u.s. and china last month. u.s. treasury secretary said that it was a great agreement i think the vice premier and president xi in china were also very optimistic that a good deal could be reached but somehow overnight the u.s. trade team saying that china read a lot of the aspects the core issues like currency manipulation force joint venture is an intellectual property and those were not up for negotiation on the u.s. side now i don't know if that's true or not because china is pushing back saying that we were asking them to change what you michael and john pointed out and fringing on their sovereign and they're here they're struggling enormously plenty and don't you know stuff for us to keep talking about but on different episode of cross-town many thanks to my guests in washington forest hills and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time to remember.

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