president of vision for fund distributors also in washington we have john gong he is a professor at the university of international business and economics located in beijing china and in forest hills we crossed to michael hudson he is a professor of economics at the university of missouri kansas city as well as author of forgive them their debts a financial times 2800 book of the year all right crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate heather let me go to you 1st in washington it seems to me i mean you know we're all covering this so-called trade war you know beat by beat pulse by pulse but you know in the larger screen scheme of things it's really about who is going to dominate this century economically and technologically the united states is fighting very hard to preserve the status quo its position in the world and we can focus in on the tech sector and this is really what it's more about it's who is going to dominate and that's why it's taking so hard to get an agreement and it's and that's why it's so

politically important more so for trump because he's up for reelection but of course the chinese leadership has to come through for the chinese people because well they've been on a pretty good roll for the last 30 years they want to keep it going go ahead heather that is that is very true i think it's important to stay where we are in the tariff negotiations the u.s. has imposed thus far 25 percent and $200000000000.00 worth of goods coming from china and that was recently increased from only 10 percent now china has also retaliated anywhere between 5 and 20 percent tariff on $110000000000.00 worth of u.s. goods i think it's also important to remember that we buy we meaning the u.s. a lot more goods from china than they do from us so i did some point in time china will run out of terrorists to retaliate on and i and so they may resort to other measures of retaliation outside of tears same question to you michael in forest hills here i mean it. early is about

a paradigm shift one power not wanting that shift to occur and another one feels that it's finally reached its place on the global stage i mean the this is these are peers they are genuinely peers now economically and it's something the u.s. has never had to confront go ahead michael well that doesn't stop you need it. for economic surrender it wants china and russia and other countries all could be dependent on united states information technology arms dollar and finance. and agriculture so that if these countries do something america doesn't like it can impose sanctions on them that will hold whole apart all of the connections of their economy no other economy is going to go along with this and china and any other economy is going to say we'd better be independent from any ability of the united states to suddenly disrupt their activity by imposing

sanctions so we're going to have our own arrangements for food for oil information technology so the but what was doing is. china together with other countries to make turn to ways to in effect trump is imposing sanctions on the united states well it's very interesting because john i mean what i want hang on let me go to john and then we could make it a free for all john but you know what you know with the kind of relationship that is occurring during the so-called trade war here i mean doesn't this give initiative to for the chinese to actually innovate even more if they're going to be cut off from these technologies and these products and these consumers then they can do it on their own end and in some ways it seems like a kind of a wise move because he does have to swallow the bitter pill now and you'll be much better later so i mean i gan i mean kind of echoing what michael is saying right here is that in a sense here by targeting specific companies they're actually spurring innovation

in china itself go ahead john. well i guess you're talking about targeting while this is actually very true so far in china us being you know working where well in terms of economic integration this you know post-race going on is also a very large operation here in china representing something like 402500 1000000000 dollars of interest here so that the success of global value chain that meaning global very chim production across the pacific has been credible to successful but so far you know the chinese that as we learn that this is in danger now hallways a prime example of that this motto is you know you can have blind faith is the motto and this actually drives corporate china further into self in ovation self indigenous being self-reliant so i think this is a. very dangerous sign coming out that the global very choose stories in is in shambles right now and i also want to get

a point to this just said it's chu that the united states maintains a very large trade deficit with china some point china is going to roll out goes to put ontario some but porn is there 40 percent of the chinese exports to nana's things actually so she was corporate america operating here in china and that means that a lot of these types of hitting products that are actually imported about american companies into us an altimeter the tariff or pay the pie but american consumers you know the studies out there are pointing out that the average burden for american family is going to be somewhere between 700 dollars to 1000 dollars so sooner or later people going to realize this you know the prices at wal-mart at amazon dot com is going up and the average american working families up footing the bill for this so it's actually not in the americas interest to you know just pretend this is not just one way street i mean exports coming from china to the u.s. they are all a socialist. the benefits of quitting to copper america and you know the goods.

bottom american families and they're paying for this ok heather you want to jump in there go ahead a lot's been said a lot yeah i mean i have yeah i guess i'll be the one person to push back but i'm on with 2 professors and i and i am not a professor so i will be cautious all raise my hand and i think the administration in the u.s. so i know that this also hurts us it wal-mart has says said prices are going to have to go up and it also hurts china perhaps even more than the u.s. and as a free market capitalist i mean i don't necessarily like the idea of tariffs or want to impose tariffs but i do understand the u.s. the administration u.s. trade teams position that china has been stealing our intellectual property for many years and has forced joint ventures if you want to do business with china in beijing where you are john i think you have to transfer your you form

a joint venture you transfer all of your trade secrets to them and then they can use that data or they are using that had that data to trade if it's a joint or they're just a company but if it's a joint venture how to market it you know if it's a joint venture how's that. well it's that's good because china is not supposed to be able to give our trade secrets to their domestic companies thus putting our u.s. domestic manufacturers at a disadvantage and that's what we're targeting that well if we want to have business which i'm sure you'll do with the doings of life but you're basically fair and yeah but they still do the joint ventures why because their profits to be made i mean we've known this for a very long time michael you were disagreeing jump in technology is universal there is no such thing as a trade secret that's like saying that china shouldn't grow its own mood because we grow up grow our food. when they're talking about secrets you're talking about monopoly pricing in the united states once they have other countries china and others dependent on us. rights and monopolies just like the

farmer. suitable companies that charge an enormous rate is this military secret when when a company violates. the norm in establishing a monopoly every other country has the right to produce it if some other country tries to exploit them by selling it in exploitative rent reading over and above us ok well john i know you're going what is it like knowledge of good job good job what is the technology if that in a so-called theft of intellectual property is where the 1st one to make the point that no country can make any progress significant progress on the technology of phones by just stating and and technology transfer coercion themselves corporate china has to be innovating and they have been climbing the technology lead us no doubt about it and also i'm not going to defend it or snow you know that it's an actual property theft in china that's when it happens but the point is that i think

the united states was talking about a stay sponsored theft of intellectual property so i mean as a distinction here i'm not sure that's true i mean if you look at the us to. a 2nd report he talks about theft of intellectual property rights he doesn't distinguish between you know it's individual companies or government sponsored theft i think is a very important distinction here i don't think there's a very solid evidence to support the idea that the chinese government is engaging in a state sponsored theft systematic comprehensive theft of copper america's intellectual properties i don't think that's true there was a spot to enforce technology transfer again i want to make this again i mean they're finished again after we have to make a distinction between the government and individual companies when individual company tossed american companies about for me and joint venture in china off course the chinese side was that look you know what can you offer on the table is there any technology transfer you can you can offer us in exchange for something we

will and if you call that force technology transfer i'm not sure that's really forced. this is a well that's that's that's why i go to john that's why don't you go shoot here that's why i said these companies willingly go into these joint ventures here. finish out the 1st block of the program to groups like those who are against one maybe 3 against one go ahead 40 seconds have the report we go to break again fly oh ok i'm sorry i just think again no no no problem this is fine it's not my position it's the president trump and the u.s. t.r.s. position and not just a republican or democratic issue when there has been democratically support in the us from from the past president obama for example has filed 16 cases of what the world trade organization about chinese the chinese stealing our intellectual property as well as dumping goods like aluminum and steel on u.s. soil in those most of those i think have been resolved but bernie sanders also saying that they have destroyed millions of u.s. american jobs and bill clinton and recently chuck schumer there in d.c.

say ok intel heather and the head of that are going on china has gotten not just a robot like i love you know of the united states always nice little smiley to hang on john but the chinese didn't steal any jobs it was american corporations that did it it wasn't china ok or i'm going to just ignore that they are going to we're going to do your shorts we're going to show our brains and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on trying to trade more say with our team. most people think to stand out in this business you need to be the 1st one on top of the story or the person with the loudest voice of the biggest raid in truth to

stand out on the news business you just need to ask the right questions and demand the right answers. question. you know to the 2017 the german newspaper developed published an article claiming that the european union the last 13000000000 euros as a result of its very anti russian sanctions. particularly affected eastern europe many polish vamos went broke and even committed suicide. sometimes i can't account as i was of on to get a moment. on the political rundown. on

these if the young can behave that often. gets to the dolls and on to other kind of . doesn't the let's see in the. song the smiths. on doesn't dance with all the folks in the.

same wrong. role just don't hold. any belief yet to shape out these days because that's a good. and in games red equals betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground. welcome back to cross talk where all things considered i'm peter all about oh man you were discussing trump's trade war. ok let me go back to i call in forest hills look i am for the president getting a good trade deal with china or whatever that deal is then we have to talk about

its nuts and bolts but i do support the american national interest i'm reaching out to have the right here ok i'm just trying to kind of peel back some of the kind of propaganda that we hear in the mainstream media now i mean you know michael you know him currency manipulation what was quantitative easing ok i mean there are different terms for it ok but you know i mean i always pointing at china my why you know i'll be evolving i'll be very. controversial here. michael with a lot of people are just jealous of china's enormous success i mean it is the one of the most amazing economic miracles in such a short amount of time when i was a young man you know china you when you open up like a you know an atlas and you know the f.b.i. factbook you know like china which is not there maybe the most populous country in the world that nobody ever really talked about it except for its comedy there now we have to talk about it a lot and i've been to china it is a remarkable place to see now. a huge middle class but it's extraordinary i

think you know. people are not really well informed what china is really all about except for it's the new adversary which is so boring go ahead michael well china has succeeded and gotten rich following the same policy that america followed in the 19th century rich it has a mixed economy and it uses the public sector to subsidize basic needs transportation education health to provide these really so that. liars do not have to pay. a high enough price so that they can afford high priced housing like americans high priced care the americans cannot acknowledge china is succeeding with a mixed economy which it call socialist but then you'd have to call the american economy socialist we have the government subsidizing it that there are the military sectors subsidizing agriculture china is doing exactly what the united states and

the united states can't understand china because it would have to acknowledge that it itself is a mixed economy and that is anathema to the free enterprise academics john is and i want to focus on that one question your mom about to ask john i want to ask how there in michael later is there a win win scenario as we go into this because the even though the terminology we use trade war is if someone has to win or lose i mean it's it's such a black and white issue the way it's portrayed in the media and i find that that is very dangerous because if it's a war someone has to win of course you don't want to lose and it could spread into other areas geopolitics in the military and which of course none of us want that to go happen so you know is a win win possible here because of the rhetoric coming out of the american media and the administration they make it sound like you know this is a an existential threat maybe it will be one day but certainly not now go ahead

john. well the chinese come has been very careful of using this war the war i mean the trade war up until the collapse of the 11th ronnie goetia which is which was set up on a month ago when vice premier little hook came to washington d.c. and the negotiation for a part up to the up to that point the china scum in the press in china most of them you know national media is actually controlled by the government we have never used a war war to catalyze what's going on between states and china. we always were talking about your trade friction but now i've seen official mention of this world war so i think the chinese government's position is change it a bit realizing that you know they can't just keep make concessions or concessions at some point they have the desire there's a line they have to join us and we no more any more in. recently just a few days ago a ministry of commerce issued a white paper lay out 3 conditions very clearly

a force that if we're going to reach a deal or have to go back to you know before july last year when the tassel impose order additional have to be gone that's the 1st condition the 2nd issues that the amount of approaches. and the moderates you know words there's a reach between present she and present chum during the summit meeting argentina in november that china is committed to buying so no months and seems the. the the trade deficit some u.s. keeps worsening since since last november the american side has made additional amount of demand that we have to increase imports from u.s. chinese come and say this has to be more the 3rd thing is that the force the macas of the talking about in that $150.00 page document that is the documenting the goetia between vice premier. asked to eliminate all those things regarding any legislative timetable on the chinese spot china's government thinks

that's infringe upon their busy infringement upon china sovereignty so these are the 3 issues that have to be resolved and in my opinion that this of women is not so much respect to the substance of the americas concern for china structure issues or even the trade deficit amount i think it's committed even this amount that the loan issue right now is regarding the enforced rumack of it or was this enforcement matters and doesn't have to be going through the legislative avenues. they don't have to they have to the canning flame to function is some of the and that's the bottom line that's what i was that's a very subtle things that the chalice very good point had there i mean it was one of the questions that i sent out to all of you here i mean the united states demanding structural changes in how china does business in its own country i mean that is a bit of a reach isn't it i mean it shows a lot of disrespect. to the dominant and submissive country again that's not going

to work now i mean like it or not as much as the american media doesn't understand it china and the united states are roughly peers now ok and you have to start treating it as one go ahead heather well they should be piers i hope so and i don't want to trade war i mean i don't think anyone in the administration wants a trade war but it is our right to point out i think we'd all be in agreement that asking china to change things their structural policies for example their state owned enterprises. is maybe reaching too far like you said i think it's a threat to their international independence and then see it as an infringement on their sovereignty as john rightly point pointed out but the fact is if we are dealing with things that have gone on for decades bill clinton helped make china into the world trade organization in 2001 of stealing intellectual property theft and force joint ventures even though the americans want to do business with china

where the 2 largest economies in the world of course the americans want to do business with china we just don't want china to steal billions and billions of stuff from from americans and rip us off but i think this is really americans west and we've started fact started this program you know when talking about this grand paradigm shift and that's really what's going on here i'm kind of it a miss you know going to michael and in forest hills i mean it's not about intellectual property is their intellectual property theft i suppose there is ok but that's not. the the game changer in all of this i think that she is thrown out there it's red meat for the media to show that america is a victim ok america's not a victim in all this that basically you kind of trade agreements they've had with countries around the world since the 2nd world war is all their own fault i do agree that donald trump is doing some really good things and far as trade is concerned and he has to do more but he has to has he has to realize he's not dealing with mexico here he's dealing with china go ahead michael well that is

a trade war is really in this case a war of economic systems the united states once trying to do what russia did under yeltsin to our turn over its industry to let american financial institutions come in and really take ownership of chinese economic development so the question is what kind of a planned economy are you going to you know america has a centralized planned economy planned by waltz through china has a planned economy planned by politicians now who do you want to plan your economy american banks in their own interest in the financial sector which is creating debt or do you want a non financial life plan that raced on actual industry actual labor actually raising the living standards instead so underneath that what they call a parade war is as war of economic systems and a war will the world be multinational multilateral or will it be unilateral that

really what it is and what i think you as the go has economy go ahead other you know the u.s. economy is far better off than china i mean in my opinion we have unemployment at the lowest levels in 50 years 3.6 percent wages are rising g.d.p. about 3 percent 7000000 job openings i don't think it's the same in china right now they have declining exports declining g.d.p. in 2018 the lowest in 28 years and the i.m.f. is actually downgrading china's forecasted growth so of course they have the what is an honorary go there. they should in terms of the let them 1st remember that you can't and not everybody hold your breath everybody hold your breath here we go john jump in go ahead john. your stats are wrong china's g.d.p. is 6.4 percent last quarter. for the united states and china's exports and i get it going updated all gone not last may the the stats just came out last the dismay

policy made exports close by 7.7 percent which the united states there is no last count but was there trying to trade it had a. tear. the exports was european union was in the aussie and that's the south asian southeast asian countries they're going by more than 10 percent so overall you know there's going to be some difficulties i admitted that i mean this this trade or is having. causing problems here in china and some american companies og will be a lot of china the publicly moved to vienna philippines malaysia those companies doing that but let me tell you even if we. think about the worst now if we leave how do you write off china's exports united states that's only representing something between $1.00 to $1.00 but 2 percent of china's g.d.p. so it's something that china's government as we can pair with and then willing to bear with if we go down in a very dangerous path so you know at some point. is not going to make keep keep

make concessions again and ok to be ok john i made. you want to hang on i want to go to heather heather 30 seconds because it was rather lopsided here go ahead heather go ahead well i just i think we had a 150 page agreement or a draft of a proposed agreement which we did between the u.s. and china last month minutia and u.s. treasury secretary said that it was a great agreement i think the vice premier and president xi in china were also very optimistic that a good deal could be reached but somehow over. right the u.s. trade team saying that china remained on a lot of the aspects the core issues like currency manipulation force joint ventures and electoral property and those were not up for negotiation on the u.s. side now i don't know if that's true or not because china is pushing back saying that we were asking them to change what you michael and john pointed out and frenching on there and they're here they're struggling enormously plenty i don't i mean you know stuff for us to keep talking about but on different episode of cross talk many thanks to my guests in washington for

a sales pitch and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.t.c. the next time to remember. we are in strange situation where everybody is making a lot of noise about military action against iran but nobody in the part of that alliance actually wants to do it there's no desire for it so do you hope that iran makes a mistake. somehow. and then does it some kind of confrontation and then the iranians will be forced to come to the table you know begging for some kind of solution on american terms but you know i think that is dreaming that's a pipe dream. you know world's

big partners. and conspiracy it's time to wake up to dig deeper to hit the stories that mainstream media refuses to tell more than ever we need to be smart we need to stop slamming the door. and shouting past each other it's time for critical thinking it's time to fight for the middle for the truth the time is now for watching closely watching the hawks. feel welcome you start. normal guy called. a member of the real world will know well you know just when you watch him cruiser. up on

the board. with the. bushnell. you can use new epoch times to. lead you to surround us. most of the squad in some. very unusual there are these which. you'll see in the local police which is based on what. you own or one with your leanings really push the chest out a little bit your bullshit a little you look as i would shoot. the theory with a feel. like there was something out. there for. joining me every day on the alex salmond shill when i'll be speaking to guest of the world of politics sports business i'm show business i'll see you then.

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