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stay with us now for crosstalk asking whether the u.s. and china can find a way out of better trade for. a low and welcome across talk we're all things considered i'm peter lavelle after a breakdown in negotiations president and she may soon again meet to hash out a trade deal the stakes couldn't be higher both sides would need to proceed to wind failure could witness the global economy divided into rival blocks and a dual internet world. trade war i'm joined by my guest. the zoom in washington she is

a financial analyst as well as vice president of vision for fund distributors also in washington we have john gong he is a professor at the university of international business and economics located in beijing china and in forest hills we crossed to michael hudson he is a professor of economics at the university of missouri kansas city as well as author of forgive them their debts a financial times 2800 book of the year all right crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate heather let me go to you 1st in washington it seems to me i mean you know we're all covering this so-called trade war you know beat by beat pulse by pulse but you know in the larger screen scheme of things it's really about who is going to dominate this century economically and technologically the united states is fighting very hard to preserve the status quo its position in the world and we can focus in on the tech sector and this is really what it's more about it's who is going to dominate and

that's why it's taking so hard to get an agreement and it's and that's why it's so politically important more so for trump because he's up for reelection but of course the chinese leadership has to come through for the chinese people because well they've been on a pretty good roll for the last 30 years they want to keep it going go ahead heather that is that is very true i think it's important to stay where we are in the tariff negotiations the u.s. has imposed thus far 25 percent on $200000000000.00 worth of goods coming from china and that was recently increased from only 10 percent now china has also retaliated anywhere between 5 and 20 percent tariff on $110000000000.00 worth of u.s. goods i think it's also important to remember that we buy we meaning the u.s. a lot more goods from china than they do from us so i have some point in time china will run out of terrorists to retaliate on and i and so they may resort to other measures of retaliation outside of tears. same question to you michael in forest

hills here i mean it really is about a paradigm shift one power not wanting that shift to occur and another one feels that it's finally reached its place on the global stage i mean the this is these are peers they are genuinely peers now economically and it's something the u.s. has never had to confront go ahead michael well that doesn't stop the united states being more economic surrender it wants china and russia and other countries all could be dependent on united states information technology arms dollar and finance. in agriculture so that if these countries do something america doesn't like it can impose sanctions on them that will hold whole apart all of the connections of their economy no other economy is going to go along with this and china and any other economy is going to say we'd better be independent from any

ability of the united states to suddenly disrupt their activity by imposing sanctions so we're going to have our own arrangements for food for oil or information technology so the effect of what companies doing is to china together with other countries to make turn to ways to in effect trump is imposing sanctions on the united states well it's very interesting because john i mean what i want hang on let me go to john and then we could make it a free for all john but you know what you know with the kind of relationship that is occurring during the so-called trade war here i mean doesn't this give initiative to for the chinese to actually innovate even more if they're going to be cut off from these technologies and these products and these consumers then they can do it on their own end and in some ways it seems like a kind of a wise move because he does have to swallow the bitter pill now and you'll be much better later so i mean i gan i mean kind of echoing when. michael is saying right

here is that in a sense here by targeting specific companies they're actually spurring innovation in china itself go ahead john. well i guess you're talking about targeting while this is actually very true so far in china in the u.s. being you know working where well in terms of economic integration this you know post-race going on is also very large operation here in china representing something like 402500 1000000000 dollars of interest here so the success of global value chain that meaning global very chimp production across the pacific has been credible to successful but so far you know the chinese medicine learned that this is in danger now why always a prime example of that this motto is you know you can have blind faith is the motto and this actually drives corporate china further into self in the ovation self indigenous being self-reliant so i think this is a. very dangerous sign coming out that the global very choose stories in is in

shambles right now and also want to get a point to have as just said it's chu that the united states maintains a very large trade deficit with china some point china's going to run off goes to put on tarot some but the point is that 40 percent of the chinese exports to nana's things actually socialist corporate america operating here in china and that means that a lot of these types of hitting products that actually imported about american companies into u.s. and altimeter all paid by by the american consumer you know the studies out there pointing out that the average burden for american family is going to be somewhere between 700 dollars to 1000 dollars so sooner or later people going to realize this you know the prices at wal-mart at amazon dot com is going up and the average american working families up footing the bill for this so it's actually not in the americas interest to you know just. and this is not just one way street i mean the axe. what's coming from china to the us or

a socialist. the benefits of quitting to corporate america and you know the goods are being bought in american families and they're paying for this ok how do you want to jump in there go ahead a lot's been said. yeah i mean i have yeah i guess i'll be the one person to push back but i'm on with 2 professors and i and i am not a professor so i will be cautious all raise my hand and i think the administration in the us i know that this also hurts us it wal-mart has says said prices are going to have to go up and it also hurts china perhaps even more than the us and as a free market capitalist i mean i don't necessarily like the idea of tariffs or want to impose tariffs but i do understand the us the administration us trade teams position that china has been stealing our intellectual property for many years and has forced joint ventures if you want to do business with china in beijing where

you are john i think you have to transfer your you form a joint venture you transfer all of your trade secrets to them and then they can use that data or they are using that i have that data to trade if it's a joint or they're just a company but if it's a joint venture how targeting you know if it's a joint venture how is that theft well it's that's because china is not supposed to be able to give our trade secrets to their domestic companies thus putting our u.s. domestic manufacturers at a disadvantage and that's what we're targeting that well if we want to have business which means you'll do the doings of life you're basically fair and yeah but they still do the joint ventures why because their profits to be made i mean we've known this for a very long time michael you were disagreeing jump in technology is universal there is no such thing as a great secret that's like saying that china shouldn't grow its own mood because we grew up grew our food. when they're talking about trade secrets you're talking about monopoly pricing the. united states once they have other countries china and

others dependent on us. rates and monopolies just like the pharmaceutical companies that charge an enormous rate is that military secret when when a company violates. the normal free trade in us now which is a monopoly every other country has the right to produce it cos if some other country tries to exploit them by selling it in exploitative rent reading over and above us ok well john i know you're going what is it like knowledge of good job good job what is the technology if that in a so called theft of intellectual properties were 1st of all to make the point that no country can make any progress significant progress on a technology fund by just stating and and technology transfer coercion themselves corporate china has to be innovating and they have been climbing the technology lead us no doubt about it and also i'm not going to defend it or snow you know it's

an actual property theft in china that's when it happens but the point is that i think the united states was talking about a stay sponsored theft of intellectual property so i mean as a distinction here i'm not sure that's true i mean if you look at the us t.r. rubber law is a 2nd 31 report he talks about theft of intellectual property rights he doesn't distinguish between you know it's individual companies or government sponsored a theft i think a very important distinction here i don't think there's a very solid evidence to support the idea that the chinese government is engaging in a state sponsored theft systematic comprehensive theft of copper america's intellectual properties i don't think that's true there was a spot to the enforced technology transfer again i want to make this stick again i mean they're finished again after we have to make a distinction between the government and individual companies when individual company tossed american companies about for me and joint venture in china off course the chinese side was that look you know what can you offer on the table.

technology transfer you can you can offer us in exchange for something on the table and if you call that a forced technology transfer i'm not sure that's really force i mean this is a well that's that's that's going on that's why don't you go issue here that's why i said these companies willingly go into these joint ventures here. finish out the 1st block of the program looks like it's 2 against one maybe 3 against one go ahead 40 seconds have the report we go to break again fleischer i'm sorry i just think again no no no problem this is fine it's not my position it's the president trump in the u.s. t.r.s. position and not just a republican or democratic issue when there has been there are credit support in the u.s. from from the past president obama for example has filed 16 cases what the world trade organization about chinese the chinese stealing our intellectual property as well as dumping goods like aluminum and steel on u.s. soil in those most of those i think have been resolved but bernie sanders also

saying that they have destroyed millions of u.s. american jobs a bill clinton recently chuck schumer here in d.c. saying playing tough heather and her time going on china has gotten not just a republican i think you know your time space colonies you lost money to hang on john but the chinese didn't steal any jobs it was american corporations that did it it wasn't china ok or i'm going to just ignore that they are going to we're going to short we're going to show our brains and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on trying to trade more say with our team.

he'll welcome you all just normal guy called. a member of the real world will know what you know but notice when you watch him cause it. was a march. toward. with the. news new york city for. you to sit around us. monday morning some. of these which. you'll see in the local which is. what

you would you would please leave there's a look at your bullshit. you look to sell shoes. that. you don't like. welcome back to cross talk where all things are considered i'm peter all about reminder we're discussing trump's trade war. ok let me go back to michael in forest hills look i'm for the president getting a good trade deal with china or whatever that deal is then we have to talk about its nuts and bolts but i do support american national interest i'm reaching out to have the right here ok i'm just trying to kind of peel back somebody and kind of propaganda do you hear me and streaming audio now i mean. you know michael you know

i am currency manipulation but what was quantitative easing ok i mean there are different terms for it ok but you know i mean i always pointing at china my why you know i'll be evolving i'll be very. controversial here. michael with a lot of people are just jealous of china's enormous success i mean it is it is the one of the most amazing economic miracles in such a short amount of time when i was a young man you know china you when you open up like a you know an atlas and you know the f.b.i. factbook you know like china was just not there to be the most populous country in the world that nobody ever really talked about it except for it's caused me to add now we have to talk about it a lot and i've been to china it is a remarkable place to see now. a huge middle class but it's extraordinary i think you know these people are not really well informed what china is really all about except for it's the new adversary which is so boring go ahead michael well

china has succeeded and gotten rich by following the same policy that america followed in the 19th century to get rich it has a mixed economy and it uses the public sector to subsidize the basic needs transportation education health to provide these really so that employers do not have to pay workers a high enough price so that they can afford high priced housing like americans high priced health care the americans cannot acknowledge china is succeeding with a mixed economy which is coal socialist but then you'd have to call the american economy socialist we have the government subsidizing the ip sec there are military sectors subsidizing agriculture china is doing exactly what the united states does and the united states can't understand china because it would have to acknowledge that it itself is a mixed economy and that is anathema to the free enterprise academic. you know

john it's and i want to focus on the one question to ask john i want to ask how there in michael later is there a win win scenario as we go into this because the even the terminology we use trade war is that someone has to win or lose i mean it's it's such a black and white issue the way it's portrayed in the media and i find that that is very dangerous because if it's a war someone has to win and of course you don't want to lose and it could spread into other areas geopolitics in the military and which of course none of us want that to go happen so you know is a win win possible here because of the rhetoric coming out of the american media and the administration they make it sound like you know this is a an existential threat maybe it will be one day but certainly not now go ahead john. well the chinese come has been very careful of using this word war i mean the trade war up until the collapse of 11th around the goetia which is which was about

a month ago when vice premier little hook came to washington d.c. and the negotiation busy for appox up to up to that point that china's going in the press and china most of them you know national media is actually controlled by the government we have never used a war war to categorize what's going on between states and china we always were talking about you know trade friction but now i've seen the official mention of this world war so i think the chinese government's position has changed at a bit realizing that you know they can't just keep make concessions concessions some point they have that there's a there's a law and they have to join us and we know more any more in. recently just a few days ago a ministry of commerce issued a white paper lay out 3 conditions very clearly a force that if we're going to reach a deal or have to go back to you know before last year when the tassel impose order to be gone that's the 1st condition the 2nd condition is that the. approaches his

commitment china's government has is going to make doing this train a go she has to be reasonable. and the moderate you know words these are women reached between present she and present trump during the summit meeting argentina in november that china is committed to buy a soda months and seems the. trade deficit some u.s. keeps worsening since since last november the american side has made additional amount of demand that we have to increase imports from u.s. chinese come and say this has to be more the 3rd thing is that the force the macas of the talking about in that 150 page document that is the document the goetia between vice premier little her. eyes up to eliminate all those things regarding any legislative timetable on the chinese spot china's government thinks that's infringe upon their busy infringement upon china sovereignty so these are the 3 issues that have to be resolved and in my opinion that this of will is not so

much respect to the substance of the americas concern for china structure issues or even the trade deficit amount i think. even this amount that the loan issue right now is regarding the enforced americans of the other was the enforcement matters and doesn't have to be go through the legislative avenues they don't have to they have to the can infringe upon china some of the mass the bottom line is that you know words it's a very subtle things they're the chest that's a very good point how they're i mean and it was one of the questions that i sent out to all of you here i mean the united states demanding structural changes in how china does in business in its own country i mean that is a bit of a reach isn't it i mean it shows a lot of disrespect i think as it is the dominant and submissive country again that's not going to work now i mean like it or not as much as the american media doesn't understand it. china and the united states are roughly peers now ok and you

have to start treating it as one go ahead heather well they should be piers i hope so and i don't want to trade war i mean i don't think anyone in the administration wants a trade war but it is our right to point out i think we'd all be in agreement that asking china to change things their structural policies for example their state owned enterprises. is maybe reaching too far like you said i think it's a threat to their international independence and then see it as an infringement on their sovereignty as john rightly point pointed out but the fact is if we are dealing with things that have gone on for decades sense bill clinton helped china to the world trade organization in 2001 of stealing intellectual property theft and force joint ventures even though the americans want to do business with china where the 2 largest economies in the world of course the americans want to do business with china we just don't want china to steal billions and billions of stuff from

from americans and rip us off but i think this is really americans west and we started back to you as you have started this program you know we're talking about this grand paradigm shift and that's really what's going on here i'm kind of it a miss you know going to michael and in forest hills i mean it's not about intellectual property it is their intellectual property theft i suppose there is ok but that's not the the game changer in all of this i think that she was thrown out there it's red meat for the media to show that america is a victim ok america's not a victim in all this that they say that you kind of trade agreements they've had with countries around the world since the 2nd world war is all their own fault i do agree that donald trump is doing some really good things and far as trade is concerned and he has to do more but he has to he has to realize he's not dealing with mexico here he's dealing with china go ahead michael well the war is really in this case a war of economic system the united states. it's trying to do what russia did under

yeltsin to our turn over its industry to let american financial institutions come in and really take ownership of chinese economic development so the question is what kind of a planned economy are you going to you know america has a centralized planned economy planned by waltz through china has a planned economy planned by politicians now who do you want to plan your economy american banks in their own interest in the financial sector which is creating debt or do you want a non financial life plan but greece not an actual industry actual labor actually raising the living standards instead so underneath that what they call a period where is this war of economic systems and a war will the world be multinational multilateral or will it be unilateral that really what it is and what i think you as the guy who has economy go ahead either go the us economy is far better off than china i mean in my opinion we have

unemployment at the last levels in 50 years 3.6 percent wages are rising g.d.p. about 3 percent 7000000 job openings i don't think it's the same in china right now they have declining exports declining g.d.p. in $2800.00 the lowest in 28 years and the i.m.f. is actually downgrading china's forecasted growth so of course they have the one is an honorary go there's a saying in terms of those i have to let them 1st i really kept a ok i've got everybody hold your breath everybody hold your breath there we go john jump in go ahead john. what have the your stats are on china's g.d.p. is 6.4 percent last quarter busy that's for the united states a typical of china's exports is actually a go laying off data loss last may the dust that the stats just came out last them a dismay passing may the exports close by 7.7 percent which the united states out there very last count but was there trying to trade it had what. tear the exports

was european union with c.n. that's the south asian southeast asian countries they're going by more than 10 percent so overall you know there's going to be some difficulties i admitted that i mean this this trade or is having. causing problems here in china and some american companies og will be a lot of china publicly moved to vienna philippines malaysia those companies doing that but let me tell you even if we. think about the wusa now if we leave how do you write off china's exports united states that's only representing something between $1.00 to $1.00 but 2 percent of china's g.d.p. so it's something that china scum as we can bear with and then would have to bear with if we go down in a very dangerous path so you know some point the money is not going to keep make concessions again and ok to be ok john i made. you want to hang on i want to go to heather have there 30 seconds because it was rather lopsided here go ahead heather

. well i just i think we had a $150.00 page agreement or a draft of a proposed agreement which we did between the u.s. and china last month. u.s. treasury secretary said that it was a great agreement i think the vice premier and president xi in china were also very optimistic that a good deal could be reached but somehow overnight the u.s. trade team saying that china read neck down a lot of the aspects the core issues like currency manipulation force joint venture is an intellectual property and those were not up for negotiation on the u.s. side now i don't know if that's true or not because china is pushing back saying that we were asking them to change what you michael and john pointed out and fringing on their sovereignty and they're here they're struggling are being downright mean stuff for us to be talking about but on different episode of graustark many thanks to my guest in washington forest hills and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time to remember.

what politicians do something to. put themselves on the line they get accepted or rejected. so when you want to be president or injury. or somehow want to breast. cancer go right to the press as a white woman for 3 in the morning can't be good but i'm interested always in the waters of our. quest to. we had one man 3540 years old. this child in the water.

some 30 fisherman later and it's not. understood. that he's going to want to help me and i. will stop and help them out. i believe that this is one of the therapy is. tama. absurd it's really harsh things that happen in life. ringback to me.

feel welcome you start you. hold most got to use up most. of you when you move to new but i'm. sure. you'll be a local was watching that you. mean just a thought a little g.'s will shoot you but i would be a walker so much you. would think. you. were snatching the study almost. out of mine be on the beach at low self-esteem let me see the moment you asked are you still are so many of. us agree

i'm. serious still.