god since we. don't hate. this kid who want to. give. any. kind of system definition in. an innocent in the news to him. hello and welcome to worlds apart believe this showdown between washington and

tehran is a lot like the united states clash with north korea 2 years ago except for one crucial difference there is no regional ally capable or even the willing to restraint biggest its worst time to be the barbs traded and sanctions imposed what could stop the united states from sliding into yet another middle eastern war to discuss that i'm now joined by david morris and author of dangerous delusion why the west is wrong about nuclear iran mr marson good to talk to you thank you very much for your time. now back in 2013 you published a book with be there all boring making a rational argument against a war with iran and i think many of the points you made back then are still valid but do you think this whole debate on iran especially in the united states is still within the reaal most rationality do rational arguments still matter the basic facts of disappeared really from public view. the united states spent 10

years from 2003 to $22013.00 attempting to coerce around into giving up the radium and rich rooms. even though that was around. the p.t. which allows enrichment and other activities as long as it was. for. civil and not motion purposes the fields. despite their best efforts they got sanctions imposed by the un security council they imposed sanctions themselves obama did and when most of 2012 i think. nevertheless they. continued with their enrichment program as they were entitled to do and then they talked with the situation in which they have about $20000.00 centrifuges which about half were actually functioning. time of course the there are

the activity then your character of the. iranians was was on her the supervision of the. on an all time they fund absolutely no diversion of your material. for nuclear purposes well it's one so far that a few days ago the united states and iran seemed to be on the brink of a war but if we are to believe media reports donald trump called off a strike on the run based in part on consultations with his favorite t.v. anchor i'm sure that both of us are relieved that the strike didn't happen but this mode of decision making about the matters of war and peace doesn't it send chills down your spine. yes i mean unfortunately there's one arcturian on this is just is not rush no. it's the united states i mean iran is

comparatively rational about all these things when you can predict as to what's going to happen not least because. a tone trumps chief advisor and this is one john bolton who. is for everybody in favor of taking military action against iran and indeed over regime change in iran he he wrote an op ed in the annals of trying 2015 i think it was suggesting that the united states should bomb around. nuclear weapons program. he undoubtedly was to the fore an advisor in trying to take military action a few days ago by a trim tree bark. i'm certain sure there are going to be over instances in which he will get military action and maybe next time trump will not drop by i mean it's overly irrational because. there is no iran hasn't got a nuclear weapons program. is never how the nuclear weapons program the j c p

a way has restricted the imbalance of interest uranium it can. keep on its own soil it come it. couldn't possibly make a nuclear weapon even if it thought so done through the years the us and times rooms said look we can always tell if it moves away from the current level of enrichment which is largely required for nuclear power towards higher levels of richmond that are needed for for. a bomb you just mentioned a moment ago that the president. was almost proud for having called off a military strike and having stood up to john bolton but at the same time he also doubled down on verbal assaults and personal sanctions against the supreme leader off or on. i agree with you it's very difficult to understand the transactions but do you take that as a now for this an american effort to diffuse or on the contrary to your ratchet up

the pressure insofar as they have promised to put pressure on iran that what they really expect to gain from go to the nose i mean. to meet them. around what was about a year ago in which there were 12 points in which which were impossible to believe that iran would ever. giving up their nuclear program altogether and included. apparently withdrawing from syria and stopping giving aid and assistance to has will i mean none of that's going to happen so what their end game is god only knows the world should be saying with one voice and particularly europe should be say with one voice is this crisis is made in washington this crisis or is arisen from the fact that the united states. is violating a an international nuclear deal sanctioned by the security council. this should be

said over and over again iran is innocent in this matter and was still sticking to the britain sent an envoy to run the other day let's assume bloody capital to go to you mean it should go to washington because that's where it's going to be stopped it will be stopped but they do you really think that if the europeans are have enough capacity enough geopolitical leverage to stop the americans from doing anything i mean though with all due seriousness is there any power in the world that can make the united states at this point of time seek by its own dill. very difficult. the strongest power in the world and it's very difficult to see how they can be stopped but if you just acquiesce and europe is mostly acquiescing in in this breach it hasn't gone very much for around to help the situation and which is being strangled economically if you sit quiet surely nothing's going to renew any

positive thing to write about the old day was our foreign minister who. was standing there leadership of the conservative party actually said in the house of commons i think yesterday it would be very very unlikely he couldn't it was a situation in which britain would join in military action against around the law of the united states so suppose you should be thankful for something you mentioned some of the things that could be done but what i'm mostly concerned is the this theater of affairs in the middle east because. while chance seems to be proud of not. rushing into war the overall security situation is very tenuous we still don't know what and who did the old those attacks on the oil tankers those attacks may repeat again they may be something else involving god forbid some american casualties that would require a prompt american reaction i mean i understand that i sound like a conspiracy theorist but is it possible to explain what's going on in that region without suspecting some foul play. it's it's very difficult very difficult to

say i mean and i'm going to sort of russia has. suggested that perhaps ron was right in saying that the drone was inside. her space when there's been a short time but i wouldn't like to guess as to who's responsible for her. actions against shipping the go. these days whenever things happen he ask yourself over time who gains from what even may look as if they have the answer is obvious i mean we just had a serious an in. the so-called chemical weapons until last year which you know stance on britain and france bomb syria turns out as it looks very very like as if that was in fact a staged event. i don't know who was responsible really eagle eye patches of they had the freshman one of the russian security chiefs and he went even further to

suggest that all the evidence that the americans have so far presented as as if they were the evidence of the rainy and culpability were based on poor intelligence and it really looks like there is something going on of it the with the intelligence data tromp is all from the cues of not trusting the american intelligence do you think he actually has a reason of being at least suspect of what he's given and asked to make his decisions on well he would have a right to be because john bolton is famous for when he was part of the bush administration. for. written and intelligence support cuba. actually wanted to of his way to say that of course. is his is quite willing to lie. if the need arises so who would you believe some say who. seems to be content we're living to live with that sort of situation to

some extent i think we've seen this story before with north korea the escalation of tensions there ratcheting up of sanctions followed by summits and claims of mitchell affection but i think there is one key difference and that is that a role that is played by the american ally in the region south korea was a little leading be the outreach to you on north korea but he in this particular case israel seems to be very very belligerent do you think there is any connection between this geopolitical situation surrounding the golf of amman and perhaps an israeli domestic situation israel has this right behind it's been trying for about 20 years to get america to talk around but by essentially it's either inventing or things are generating well to iran is doing and then your for you and i. it's it

would be absolutely delighted if it could persuade the u.s. at least to attack your sisters or some to sort of. whether israel is supplying information which is necessary to lessen the truth i couldn't really say ok well mr marson we have to take a short break now but we will be back in just a few moments. it's hard to take something from somebody if you know have something replace. the parts of this interview to power to use the market hoping that they take. your door. area. so how can i tell you stop selling drugs if we'll hire someone to

put the money in a box. they just mean the way in life it's almost been basically a color speech for us do you guys know what secret me security positions i've been in that. day were jacked me again. you see people get all their cars and i'll see you coming in the harness seems like they'll hurry up and run into the house like they don't want to they don't want to talk see her get your mail or anything like that. i just want to go. and do this. just try read a. good chance give me. my 7 years doing drugs my nephew's was still in drugs my system just with doing drugs

it was like an epidemic of drug abuse america's public enemy number one in the united states is drug abuse he started going after the users in the prison population sewer we started treating sick people people who are addicted to these drugs like criminals while i was on the hill i increasingly became convinced that the war on drugs was a mistake there are countless numbers of people who are in prison for inconceivable warning sentence in this for minor minor offenders in the drug trade it's a lot watching your children grow up and miss you in waves and say by daddy as you're walking out of a business it's just it doesn't get easier. welcome

back to worlds apart but david morrison and author of a dangerous delusion why the west is wrong about nuclear iran mr morrison one of the reasons why these townships have been so for attractive is because it's not entirely clear what the disagreement is really about is it about iran suppose it intention to build a nuclear bomb or is it perhaps. america's and israel's desire to see a different government in tact what is it as far as you're concerned i think there's little doubt that it's it's about. making sure are trying to make sure that's iraq's power and in the middle east is at least as restrained if not diminished. in the case of. some people and. they would very much like to see a change or regime wish and hope that they would get some regime that was.

less willing and able to stand up against people who attack and right side of the over the one thing i've been convinced of for many years is that nuclear in your business is just a pretext i mean the best evidence of that i've come across for that is when in i think it was november 2007. the u.s. intelligence services produced a national intelligence estimate on this issue. stated that as far as they were concerned. didn't have a nuclear weapons program. george bush was angry about the he was angry but he said in his book that he was angry because this meant that he could no longer. make it more difficult for him to maintain the diplomatic pressure

on iran and there's no way he could attack around militarily and circumstances in which. didn't and your weapons program so obviously the whole bloody business about the weapons program was just a pretense it was just a stick to beat around with and to use for the purpose of working on people against iran. unfortunately the u.s. intelligence services broke a stick well it's interesting that you keep referring to iran's possible mean you can't program because just the other day john bolton was on record saying that there was quote no evidence that iran made a strategic decision to renounce nuclear weapons so he takes it for granted that iran has actually accepted nuclear weapons as part of its policy of each i'm sure where they agree with me never it never happened around never has a nuclear weapons program in any meaningful sense iran has

never has never find any nuclear material being diverted from the purposes. that is the big fact. all the time this is richmond has been going on. it's been done. supervision it's still being done on a supervision when the j.c. . limits are exhausted in whatever many years time 10 years 20 years in some instances then you know iran's nuclear program will still be on during the. servatius of the day and they have known all along. what around us. doing to what level your enemy has been reached now in your book you actually go to some of the origins of how it all began failing to disclose its have a what are your any and facility in natanz which the united states and israel eagerly to you as proof

of its bomb building intentions but i draw it from your book that iran that that point of time didn't even have to disclose that facility in the 1st place how come . they were told where the. uranium enrichment facility was sure they were in the process of building. on which the released evidence of evidence on data provided by israel the. point in time the agreement they had with the. i meant that they didn't. disclose. their plans to construct facilities. i think it was 6 months prior to them putting your rhenium nuclear material into it so they were in the. sand afterwards and there were reports they weren't breaking any rules not regard

and they certainly won't bring any rules about their every water plant because every water is not a nuclear material and iran was still. eager to pursue some trust building measures to quote unquote restore the international community's trust in its nuclear program but many of the iranian officials i interviewed kind of suspected that this trust building measures were just the cover for a total of revoking permanent revoking iran's right to enrich uranium granted to it on did the nonproliferation treaty it seems like you actually agree with the ranee an argument here that all this negotiation international negotiate. it was not about building trials but actually about a permanent ban on iran's nuclear research industry the situation was negotiated and really went wrong nothing from above 2003 to 2 sources

and 5 with. european ones. including the u.k. and various points i ran suspended. various nuclear activity. temporarily at the request of the europeans but. as you said just eventually when the europeans come up with their plan. for the future of the nuclear industry in and around it for iran to enrich uranium for. iran's rights under the years me not a lot of point in 2005. iran and i did was mr zarif so if there is no foreign minister put forward. by about iran would attempt to gain. the confidence of the world that its activity was not for

military purposes. the it was it was rejected out of hand. the europeans even though it provided for an extraordinary level of supervision by the way. offered to turn enrich uranium into uranium robes right away. so it would be more difficult to reverse the process and further and rich the material for weapons were officers. in the european where but the europeans were doing america's will america said they were told they were told straightforwardly we don't want any. centrifuges are operating in and around europe and now are the europeans may have been doing the american bidding at that time but clearly there are now divisions between in europe and the united states on how to

receive the european still want iran to comply with the j c p o e b m eric and insist on the essentially i think permanent ban on the iranian enrichment whatsoever and just the other day donald trump promised a rainy and a booming economy if they were to abandon their rights you can reach is there any reason any rational reason for the rain ians to say yes to trump's proposal well. you come in sympathize with reunions when they say. this is all norms. the potential for a very you calling me on to he. decided to violet the international treaty that was astonishing 2015. and proceeded to time to strangle around economically and. but you know this

this all stars for america and it really is it is time for the europeans to say with emphasize that with a low voice and. a great deal more to support around in the trouble it's been placed in by the us administration i really do think. europeans have been. really knocked. them for size and off the degree to which around as an innocent party i mean they can keep joining in all the time with the solution that iran has this is an enormous destabilizing factor in the middle east i mean iran didn't turn iraq into a bloody mess for syria and a bloody mess you know. who's the stimulating and city in the middle east and its capital is washington speaking of which the u.s. state department has just rolled out while the demands including abandoning the

iranian ballistic missiles program withdrawing from syria obvious things that many of the countries around the world that gauge it but iran for some reason should not be allowed to and to me it really looks like the americans are asking the iranians to concede that they are indeed a pariah state with no sovereign rights whatsoever i'm sure the chances of that happening. 0 but do you think in general it's a good way of framing the issue in conducting international policy think going out with a country just because you don't trust the denying you all the rides that a given all the other neighbors thank you but this is more and struck me as a really very road you know of the situation in which the most powerful nuclear power in the middle east that is actually used nuclear weapons this is siding with a major part of the middle east which has got loads of your weapons and means of delivering them through to the capitals of the middle east if not for. here they

are attempting to strangle a state that has gotten new nuclear weapons and has a. you know spends almost a pittance on arms compared to the united states. and even that's too much apparently that. they're not allowed to help their diverse when the neighbors are asked like in the iraq and syria. on the other hand you know. the united states can come halfway around the world and interfere in syria against the wishes of the state of syria and israel seem party that's joined with the united states and. iran or most of. the movie is crazy well mr morsi when you put it like that it's really depressing by the unfortunate if this is the world that we live in anyway we have to leave it there thank you very much for sharing your perspective with that thank you i invite our

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