you know who have a great proud history who are tired of living in squalor while the. worst and yemen in lebanon in latin america wasting the money of the iranian people instead of using it to develop the iranian economy so they really need people who have a bright future they have squandered it and stolen it and they again they completely lack any legitimacy whatsoever and they will they will be judged by history very harshly and one day as i said the revolution will come gentlemen that you did to light i'm afraid we're out of time cover for as they are the former advisor to iran's nuclear negotiating team and john hodges co-director of the american mideast coalition for democracy thank you very much to both of you. ok well that brings us to the end of our rundown for this hour we're back in 30 minutes with more to see that.

hello and welcome to crossfire all things are considered i'm peter lawwell impromptu visit to the d.m.z. separating the 2 koreas was unprecedented and historic indeed it was a bold even brilliant decision of course his political opponents particularly the democrats running for president and the media slammed an orthodox diplomacy who is on the side of peace. cross talking north korea i'm joined by my guest ray mcgovern in raleigh he is

a former cia analyst and co-founder of veterans intelligence professionals for sanity in jerusalem we have from inbar he is president of the drucilla institute for strategy and security and in plymouth we cross to patrick henningsen he is the executive editor of the news website 21st century wire dot com all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate let me go to ray 1st in raleigh i just want to comment i know that you're growing your beard to give attention to the maltreatment that julian a song is being is experiencing right now so good for you my brother a man for your protest but let's go to the play affairs at hand here north korea. you're an old hand at international politics trump made an unprecedented bold move he's been slammed left in. right and center for it i think it is brilliant he's thinking outside the box because the policy towards north korea is over and over

again the same policies are attempted and they fail now we have a new start i don't know if it's going to go anywhere but it's bold and it's worth paying attention to rape in raleigh it's hard to know for sure where it's going it's anywhere because trying to get rid of bolton and and pump a 0 if he wants to achieve any success or at least remind them who's president he's got other obstacles in the main one is what i call the mickey met in the military if you got a pencil here yeah yeah military industrial congressional intelligence media . academe think tank complex micky matt now why do i say media because that's a scene acorn and that's the thing that makes it possible for to derail everything that. wants to accomplish in terms of reducing tension because you know the media is owned by the same corporations the profits here and these says tensions are in

war so holo. figured out so the media has deceived most of the american people into thinking that the leader of north korea is just a beast and it's going to take a while for trump and his folks if they want to do an agreement to correct that and to say look we can't make them completely disarm but at least we can put in guarantees that they don't want that they don't do something really bad and that guarantees will come from immediate neighbors russia and china and that's the big new impetus that's the big new element and that's what we're going to talk about that for sure efren let me go to you in jerusalem i raise that brings up a bring a good point here i was watching the cable stations and of course the the way that north korea and its leader is characterized as the worst possible terms my question is what does it what difference does it make you want to reduce tensions on the peninsula i mean stalin and churchill and roosevelt worked to defeat fascism in

europe no one was singing the praises of stalin soviet union they wanted to defeat a common enemy we have a growing coalition here north korea is a political fact kim is a political fact if you want to have peace you have to deal with both go ahead in jerusalem. yeah but no scope indeed there fagged but not very pleasant fact so it is. dictatorship that process this nuclear weapons and they. fall that he ends up with some fall. japan. look at these asian. look at his asian. as well as the nuclear he's asian of japan. only foundation of nuclear weapons is not good to this if he felt peace they'll fall by saying that it's important to try to did

nuclear eyes and. i of course admit that this job is not de an easy one because. the end of the game is a nuclear bomb bates is saying insurance policy so yeah yeah. but i'm pleased to welcome a chorus i mean i am prime i mean they they the north koreans saw what the west did to libya so no wonder it needs an insurance policy patrick let me go to you jump in and. wear it reflect on what's already been said here go ahead. well firstly i want to just comment on what i from said i don't i don't believe north korea they don't have a confirmed nuclear weapons arsenal this is this is all up in the air a lot of the us contrary you know. according to the cia one of the multiple assessments from 2010 to 2013 admitted that they are not sure what exactly they

have they have done tests this seems to have been confirmed nuclear tests but in terms of operational warheads it's unknown on top of that their i.c.b.m. program is a bit ridiculous in comparison to other countries so we don't know exactly how far they have achieved in terms of medium range long range missiles. ok they are potentially a threat but south korea's not going to acquire a bomb just because north korea they haven't started to date they don't need to because the united states provides that deterrent they have that and okinawa they have that in guam and they have that in south korea and they manage the d.m.z. so this is part of the united states is extended deterrent post world war 2 security agreement and pact with japan to control the pacific but i think what's more important here is that north korea provides the absolute keystone to the united states pacific rim strategy so if there is peace on the current korean

peninsula they provide that's the public facing keystone the back end is china and everybody knows that but in terms of the front end how it looks in the public there the villain north korea pyongyang is the villain if there's peace on the korean peninsula then you have a little bit of a problem in terms of u.s. geo strategy they'll have to reengineer towards china at that point because there's no other threat in the pacific to basically justify that sort of extended turns which has been posed to the post world war 2 strategy for how many years now almost going on nearly 80 years not long now so you know you know re the other if you look at the opponents of trump's gambit here and i think i used the word purposely gambit because it is very unusual here but that the people that are against this are all comfortable with the status quo they'd like think they want to remain the same for reasons that you've already mentioned and patrick already mentioned ok i mean it when you think of the resources that are spent on the military for the for

they've been in so it's a vast it's huge they don't want that market to go away they want this threat and that's why they will demonize the north korea to the nth degree to scare people they want this i mean in the media loves war oh they just love it it's great for ratings and it's a great way to hate donald trump go ahead ray. well if you look at raytheon you look at lockheed you look at some of the other big defense contractors and this would be the worst news that ever happened to have a deal and korea maybe even a peace treaty how could they sell ballistic missiles being stationed all around us then so be against north korea but really against china how could they justify these billions some people say a trillion dollars on worthless and people istic missile systems when the russians have already proven that they can circumvent. by many stratagems the

system so it doesn't matter if they work or not it's matter that the people who profiteer on this and these same people control the media and that's not an exaggeration to look at look at who controls the media as long as they profits here we're going to have real disappointment if there's a lessening in tension not only in the far east but of course in europe and russia as well ok in front of them to go back to jerusalem ok trump took made the 1st step ok literally 1st steps into the d.m.z. into north korea what should his next step be if he wants this to gain some momentum go ahead. he is an isolationist he would love to get out of korea he would love to get out of american commitment to do its allies we all know how he spoke to the net our nato allies and cell phone . once some kind of agreement not necessarily peace and no i don't know exactly

what peace means in the. korean peninsula he wants an agreement of dodo to save money to the american taxpayer and i don't worry so much about american military industries because i'm a celeb too. in asia is rising china and all of the countries and i'm china buying more and more weapons is the way it is one beneficiary of it and. bank accounts of the military industries in america i don't worry about. you don't worry about it that some say that because there's a lot of people on the receiving end proppant and dad ok patrick. the interesting thing is. actually the same question that i asked and i can't i'm going to say hang on a hang on let me go to patrick fair time for a time for everyone here it said you know there is already

a plan out there it's the russians and the chinese that how but i mean trump would be very very wise to embrace it go ahead patrick. sure sure i mean the there's a number of other issues here wider geopolitical issues one of them is you can't separate the negotiations on on korea between the united denuclearization negotiations you can't separate this with what's going on between the u.s. and iran at the moment these 2 are inextricably linked and i think what the united states is trying to do in trump administration's art of the deal sort of way is to try to get some kind of a winning formula yeah with regards to north korea and then some success at least in the run up through the 2020 elections and then go to the global public and say look this worked in korea we locked all these preconditions on we front loaded the deal we've got a deal even if they don't get the deal at that time they can say they got the deal

and then go to the iranians and say why doesn't iran take this this perfectly reasonable deal that we can inspect all of their military ok saturdays patrick i have to jump in here we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on north korea state with our. as we speak live organized caravan are on the march to the united. player camera. this is a virtual invasion of our country. and

i thought i meant. yeah i. know you're not going to. you know it's because this is. a nice powerful. as you do is you know where you can see the. little girls who noticed this is an issue for a player for the. georgian public especially younger generation fed up with their wealth or test because. they failed was in the democratic reforms they are very rigorous. economic reforms as well and when so russian krone sitting in the chair all day but parliament term of the parliament of georgia it's made people simply mad to go because everyone realizes that this government has failed with everything and now

they allow some brush and comb this to take a seat of the chair of the gordon parliament where they're going to put independence was actually the clear. welcome back to cross talk where all things considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing north korea. ok wait let me go back to you in raleigh. if everybody knows this trump is in election mode he wants to be reelected and he wants a win he wants a wind that he can run on he was smart in staving off an attack on iran bolton should be fired and just be shamed out of government he's just a tape worm in the bureaucracy. but he wants he wants

a victory and and by walking into the d.m.z. he's made it his own it's very very own. with tucker carlson watching from the sidelines not john bolton exiled into mongolia so this is very important for drama it's very important for trump can he and you know government very very well you know how it works and it doesn't work and you know how people can become obstacles so what does trump need to do to make this a win or a perceived win and i stress perceived win go ahead. well you'll notice peter that tape worm bolton was not at the d.m.c. now that's not a conclusive indicator but there are we criminologists used to look at the top the lenin's tomb and see who wasn't there ok so that's a straw on the why didn't he make it readable to he may get rid of pump a.o. now the important thing here is not to give trump exclusive rights to this

success i think he was talked to but chinese president z. by russian president putin in in osaka at the g 20 and they tell them look. on the stand your predecessors destroyed iraq and libya because they didn't have a nuclear weapon cation the say and how kim looks at this for pete's sake it's a deterrent now if we can give you some sort of guarantees and we're really i'm really engaged because that's trade on our border right and we don't go in over and out of border if we give you that let's get at the i think the russians and chinese are as much responsible for trump saying maybe oh maybe i'll ask him to meet me at the d.m.z. as. trump himself and from you know kind of said in the 1st part of the program is that there is already a plan out there i mean it's freeze for freeze it it's eminently doable and we have

to remember too and i think it's i always lament the fact that south korea isn't given enough credit for its efforts here to bring enough i mean president moon is brilliant and he's really reads this very very well and donald trump is giving it some momentum so shouldn't donald trump if he wants though when let everybody else do the heavy lifting let the chinese the russians and the south koreans do it go ahead in jerusalem. i think. is all it did with all this since he doesn't want the military think that way and i don't know he'd say korean peninsula hero at the end as if front pages of every newspaper means that well he made that as a film cite them on every t.v. knew it was and he said said jodi debt is an ok lex and he added he does that all the time ok this is not an exception ok it's what we're all living in the world

right now if we like it or not patrick you're nodding your head why you're not in your head for go ahead patrick b. because on you know continuing whatever said trump is going to absolutely stage manage this process to maximum effect over the next 18 months right through the election cycle this is one of the few areas where he can get a win you could get potentially a clear enough win with there's not as many tertiary problems in it and issues like you have with iran the likelihood that they're going to get a win in iran anytime soon seems to be slim and none not least of all because of the allies in the region of the us that are also exacerbating the situation namely saudi arabia and israel but i think in terms of the election cycle this is going to be going to despise arm the democratic opposition in many of the debates as well because as president he has the combin he has the advantage of being able to select

the timing and this symbology of it is going to be great not unlike a gorbachev or said kind of moment and yes there were underlying realities during those 2 that made a lot of those outcomes inevitable but they got the credit for doing this thinking outside the box or doing the unpopular thing at the time and coming out with some good p.r. from that and i think donald trump has an opportunity to do that whether they actually get an agreement or a deal. it's neither here nor there the symbolism of it as we're colleagues previously commented is what's important and the likelihood of a shooting war breaking out on the korean peninsula now is so low if you go to your local bookies and get odds on it and substantially substantially long odds now well and that's why i said to rain i'm going to rain right now perceived win that's what i said perceived win and i think we're on the same page patrick ray you want to jump in that's the point of the program go ahead yeah i think you're exactly right

and i have great respect for my friend patrick i but i think he's being a little too prematurely saying go and say to say so to speak. perceived when depends on the media yeah yeah media is all caps in the mickey mat ok now the election is a year and a half away there's all manner of opportunity for the media helped by people like bolton and pompei o to discredit the president to say he was naive and to preclude any success in korea as they have successfully done with respect to any success in making a more decent relationship with russia there's nothing no reason why it can't be done except the media has educated the american people to believe it can't be done because putin and kim are well as pompei o says demons apparently pump air believes in demons yeah i don't know hebrew really believes in the

apocalypse there is a really scary guy from it stay with the theme of i learned something we're going to go ahead ray go ahead ray go ahead i just wanted to add that i learned something hopeful and that is that i've told pump a oh there's a weight limit on the rapture. sorry. sorry about that go to africa for ever and let's stay with the media with respect i think. from jump in my colleague. with all due respect i think my colleague exaggerates apolo of the media we shouldn't forget that president tump was elected despite the media and it doesn't metaphor if the media agrees with him as long as they put his picture. you know as the new york times again it doesn't matter if the new york times is. giving game you know complimentary

views what is important is that the name of tom puppy is on the 1st page and this is what up once he is well he is only media is not i am getting lazy says if i don't know it like i would disagree let me go to patrick right now it's because media determines how people think about an issue here and there at fault for for looking for the next hitler in the world or demonisation of regimes that are it's the media that does that of course they get talking points from the deep state but the media gleefully does this thing and i to get the national interest and i've gone through all 3 of you and i still haven't asked the question i really want about the media patrick i mean when the media does undermine trump the perception in the world is that he is not in control of his own government he's not in control of the people around him and the perception is that you can't make a deal with trump because he'll flip on a dime you don't know what you're going to get and and i have to admit you know going to do going into the d.m.z. again really unpredictable so he's unpredictable that can cut both ways patrick.

yeah and in the difference is going to be look how the media treated him during the last election cycle they're against him the whole time look at the result arguably you're not going to have a stronger candidate than hillary clinton this time around on the democratic side are and this is a small margin of victory that trump would have to go for but still if the media is against him he that will wind his base up to support him it will it will energize the base whatever trump does it's going to energize the base especially if the media is against him the counterargument from the democrats is going to be how could you coddle a brutal dictator who's guilty of all these human rights violations and that argument is going to fail miserably because human rights and denuclearization are nuclear nonproliferation are 2 separate issues that never be placed in the same basket so trumps going to win on scale on mass on that argument so i think if the timing of rolling out something in august or september or right after the you know

before the election after the convention that's going to be a huge advantage on his part but c.n.n. you know they introduced north korea as the hermit kingdom that's what jake tapper has loaded on the teleprompter basically they totally underestimated yeah the d.p. r. k. they talk about them like they're backward medieval and they're not they're very canny they understand american propaganda very well as do the iranians and i think that's a huge underestimation on the part of the u.s. media to keep sort of downplaying kim and downplaying the north korea as a sort of clueless backward. country that's not knowledgeable about how politics runs in the west they absolutely do yeah let me go back to i mean you can throw in the tapeworms in media too i mean all these people are low octane thinkers of really low octane thinkers you know they pay them a lot of money to smiling read glass ok but they're not thinkers go ahead.

throw in robert muller mohler and the media now patrick just mentioned something very significant and that is how well the democrats did in the congressional elections well what was what was most are doing that he knew damn well by then that there was no collusion why did he say it why did he wait till several months after the election so the democrats could do really well why do you wait until later to say well you know actually i can't find any evidence of collusion so it's not only the media it's the whole deep state which as you know i call the mickey mouse ok effort and i'm going to give you the last word here are how optimistic you are trump will get something before the election. well i think if there is a president that knows the deep state it is stump tonty so i'm put dicta but he doesn't listen to he's advised he doesn't need intelligence briefings every morning

and he does his own show so you know they put us off the deep state. but it has less influence on this presidents and any other president before all ok well we have seen the deep state trip to try to trip this president up repeatedly let's me let's hope that on this one issue he can get a victory because it will be a victory for everyone and is one pointed out by patrick could be a litmus test for other challenges in the world that's all that all the time we have gentlemen many thanks my guests in raleigh jerusalem and employment and thanks to our viewers for watching us here arche see you next time and remember crosstalk .

you know what i don't want to talk to a communist news agency forgive me we'll have to find someone to. lower the trying to stay with us wants to get. out of the going to be just like the jews this is exactly when my father. so i. see and feel that where.

we have to be backed. 2 up. i think i acknowledge the. fight also it's an indication of how important most movements are. so that. we have left must move towards we are definitely winning it because we have the people they have people in power but we are in them must.

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