very public. i made a documentary with a european television station in 2002 and when that aired there was a very very strong in support of response from people here in our in our into particular but of course there were people who didn't want me to speak about what was happening i mean i got people warning me that i should spend the rest of my life looking over my shoulder i got death threats when in the main i got a huge amount of support i think people were uphold not just stuff the the the crimes of rape and abuse that reflected on me and many others by the priest in my own case with more by the cover up of those crimes the facilitation of the collusion with them and that we were able to expose that by catholic bishops and indeed by the vatican itself so how hard was it for you to make your case how did church resistance change things for you were you prevented from speaking out. what was i mean 1st of all it was very difficult to get to the point where i could challenge my own. a i suppose internal inhibitors the the the own spoken authority

of the church wasn't something that was external to me it was internal so when i 1st start to think about it and in the mid 100-9000 about 1904 about doing something about what had happened to me more than a decade earlier. my 1st instinct was to contact the bishop from as opposed to contacting the police so i had bought into this idea that the church was the ultimate authority and that it was it was to them that i needed to look to thankfully i didn't instead i decided about 6 months later in february of 1905 that i would make a complete complaint directly to the police here in arlington that's what i did. the priest who would abuse me the priest who raped me when i was 14 years of age was known to be a sexual abuser when he was ordained a priest the church knew about his offending behavior and they were doing to him he continued to abuse from his ordination right through his entire career as a priest and he was still a priest and active ministry when i went to the police in 1905 he was only removed

from ministry immediately after the the church's response to what i and others were alleging was to 1st of all deny deny that abuse happened then to deny the idea that they knew anything about abuse of the that they understood us. when they finally had to acknowledge that abuse was happening that tried to suggest this was just a few bad apples this was about a couple of you know bad people who had infected the priesthood and were doing terrible things. when we called from when i campaign for accountability on the part of the institutional church there was an effort to suggest that the church was above the law that the state could not investigate the church that the church was protected from any kind of station vesta geisha and indeed the church asserted here in ireland and it's done across the world but their own rules canon law the internal law of the church is superior to the law of the state in any jurisdiction which is. within which they operate so we have to get over that and of course there were all the accusations of being dishonest of being deceitful of being anti

catholic of trying to undermine the church. of being a liar of being a fan to the rich and my personal integrity all of that kind of thing was so based on the everything that you have cite right now are these the only reasons or is there like something else that actually makes victims of child sexual abuse choose to report the crime many years later like you did as well. well i suppose the 1st thing that i've worked also clinically with with people have been sexually assaulted my background actually as a psychotherapist working with the terms of sexual violence i've never worked with an adult or child victim of sexual violence who hasn't somehow spoken of what happened to them now in the context of children they speak of their smore behaviorally them verbally because they don't have a language to explain what's happened to them i mean even when i was 14 years of age this was back in 1901 there wasn't a language available to me to allow me to understand never mind explain what had

happened and what this man was doing it was an incredibly frightening confusing threatening time in my life when suddenly the act that he perpetrated upon me. called into question everything that i believed about the world i mean up until that point i've been told some fairly fundamental things as fact warm that the church was good and the priests above all were good and were never to be questions they were absolutely called to that if i behaved myself and was a good person everything would be ok 3 that adults would only ever hurt me if i did something wrong so therefore if i've been heart i must have done something wrong and then suddenly i'm raped by a catholic priest that was there was no way i could understand that never mind articulate and i was so shamed by part of happened. i internalized all of that shame and that silenced me now that was me at 14. at 6 at 7 at 8 at 10 it's going to be even more difficult for children to speak of victims

of sexual violence carry the shame of society the shame that society on the perpetrator of the crime. and that shame becomes very internalized and it's very silencing i should also say that it's very threatening to speak out you know if one knows that the perpetrator and the institution around the perpetrator is incredibly powerful and at the time and up until relatively recently. simply the concept of church was more powerful than the state of the conflict church was more powerful than our parliament when it came to what happened within our society. it's a fairly intimidating institution to challenge so we're now seeing a flurry of sex abuse scandals around the catholic church once again most of that church that has been accused of covering up sexual abuse to german church is mired in the number of sexual abuse scandals there's another case in france some more american scandals popping up with federal a torn is

a lot of what is behind the latest wave. well you just see more and more revelations i mean i think what's significant finally is that we're seeing state authorities federal authorities in the united states have announced that they've opened up the department of justice has opened up an investigation into pennsylvania and it's believed that investigations into other states at the federal level will also follow. but there has for whatever reason been a reluctance on the part of states to step in and investigate these crimes and in particular these cover ups that finally happened in australia recently one of our big successes from 2002 on was winning those inquiries here in art and so i campaign for an inquiry known as the friends inquiry in 2002 but finally got up and running in 2003 and reported in 2008 and it was one of the 1st such inquiries to look at the role of both the church and state authorities in the management of concerns our suspicions our complaints of child sexual abuse perpetrated by roman catholic priests here in ireland and that found very deep and systemic failures

within the church but also within state law and policy and practice but it also pointed the finger at the vatican so states need to step in and that's only happening more recently but of course what's also critical is that as soon as a victim speaks as soon as somebody decides to speak publicly provides an opportunity or an opening for all there is to speak. and that's been very significant it's you know i'm i'm 2124 years more nearly 25 years at this point since i went public and spoke about this for the 1st time and it never ceases to amaze me that every time i speak on this i get contacted by people who say me too who say that. i never thought i could speak about this but now i think that i have to. so it's the opening up of us really the breaking open of silence allows people to speak but also of the new law that are being. made for this kind of cases have a lot of loopholes in them for instance in pencil ennia which like you mentioned

has seen the. this way for child sex abuse revelations a law is in the works which on one hand will allow them to sue their creditors even if they abuse is beyond the statute of limitation but only and they're the victim will only be allowed to sue a person not an institution so what sense will this law make for victims of their predators may be bad by the time anyway and there's no one to bear responsibility for what happened to them when i think that's where we have to be very clear about the critical obligation of states so if we look at what international law says about states it's for the state to guarantee access to justice and remedy for victims of human rights violations and obviously the rape or sexual assault of a child or of any person is a human rights violation so in however a state is going to put in place a remedy to guarantee access for justice that has to guarantee access and blocking . remedies involving institutions is problematic but i can also see why from the

point of view of taking on the roman catholic church it might be important to begin to identify named individuals because for example the catholic church has so many different personalities legal and otherwise that it can be very hard to identify how the institution is to be sued so when i decided i would sue the pope i had to work out what am i going to sue the pope as the bishop of rome i'm going to sue him as the supreme pontiff of the roman catholic church i'm going to sue the legal personality of the holy see which has observer status of the united nations i'm i going to sue the vatican city state and him as head of the vatican city state which personality will i pursue and we've seen in australia and even efforts to do the same here in our land where catholic diocese of effectively said well you can't sue us because we don't exist we are not legal persons they're not incorporated they don't exist as a legal entity as with any kind of an statues and so they can be very very

difficult to pursue. the church has been very good for 2000 years of developing structures and mechanisms that allow it to be accountable to find a way to not be held accountable for its failings on its own crimes. and it can be tricky to find laws and to design laws that can hold a property accountable but it's the obligation of states to do the. right we're going to take a short break right now while we're back we'll continue talking to a war. against sexual abuse talking about the sex abuse crisis in the catholic church stay with us.

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now we're back what's called a warm and survivor and fighter against sexual abuse discussing the question still latest revelations of child sex abuse for a catholic church a call one pope francis was elected in 2013 he called for decisive action in tackling the issue of child sexual abuse do you feel that the action has been taken . frankly no i think francis has been enormously disappointing on this issue and i don't say that with any pleasure i admire much of what he has to say on a whole range of social justice issues from refugees to people on the margins to

poverty. to discrimination i think he's a strong advocate for a whole range of issues but on this issue he's been he's been enormously disappointing for example when he went to chile a couple of years ago a country that's been really blighted by revelations of sexual abuse and cover up of those crimes within the roman catholic church there and when victims spoke out about the appointment of a bishop who had known who was known to have covered up the abuse of a perpetrator by a priest rather than honestly respond to that charge and address it the pope accused the victim of spoken up of slander he accused them of comedy which means slander and he attacked their integrity now afterwards when there was a huge public reaction to that he rolled back and said oh well i haven't been properly briefed by bishops and i've been misled by them before i before i travel to well you know that's either dishonest or it's incompetent and the vatican itself had carried out investigations into that case as early as 2011 and for many decades

now it has been an obligation on bishops to report any allegation of the sexual abuse or rape of a child or minor to the vatican which decides how that case is to be handled and much should happen next so the vatican had chapter and verse on modern happened in chile francis knew he was going to a country where the abuse issues were a big deal so he either didn't bother to get briefed or he was briefed and decided to be disingenuous and dishonest in how he responded there none of that look schooled well how do you think that public repentance will help the problem how will it stop perverts from molesting boys and girls. well i think 1st of all it's i can understand why some people might fixate on the idea of repentance almost from a religious procession. specht of what i'm interested in is truth and justice and frankly love in its pop in its truest possible meaning and the kind of principles that churches are meant to be grounded in and the values that they're meant to reflect so i have no desire to see pope francis or any bishop or cardinal already

church leader humiliated. are exposed in that way what i do want them to do is to stand for truth to stand for justice to reveal the facts of what was known of what they knew of how their institution and they responded to these crimes and to make themselves properly accountable including before the law i wonder if the pope is doing as much as he can in a framework that and paradigm that he exists for and says i know that in february he's going to simone as bishops council to a council to discuss the sexual abuse problem i mean i don't know if that's going to change anything but he's doing that and he has said recently that his efforts are kind of bearing fruit that the number of new cases are law compared to the old ones that they church attitude towards sex abuse has changed and now has a new conscience about it do you feel that he may have a point there i mean it's kind of heart to doubt his sincere conviction.

i'm afraid it's not hard to do. the objective evidence is there for why people should 1st of all pope francis is the last elected absolute monarch on the planet he is an absolute monarchy is the supreme pontiff of the roman catholic church under church t.c. teaching he is the representative of st peter of god on earth he has that kind of power he has an entire judicial system available to him he has the mecca mechanisms of a state of washington city state its laws its police force its criminal justice process he has the own questioning loyalty of many many many billions of catholics are millions of catholics around the world he is an incredibly powerful individual with woman works with the stroke of a pen he can change much of church law when it comes to how these issues are to be addressed he has not done so and he's not the 1st pope to summon bishops to rome

after revelations of scandals are revealed and those huge public outrage pope benedict or the pope john paul the 2nd did us and these summits amount to an awful lot of pictures of people looking solemn and very little change and as for the suggestion that we can now believe that there's less of us will based on what evidence the church doesn't reveal the number of cases that are reported to us are i would manage as such there's absolutely no transparency some afraid i don't take any comfort in any assurances from the vatican that they're taking this seriously because to this day no pope has told the plain truth not a single pope no senior representative of the vatican has ever honestly acknowledge the fact of the coverup they've denied they've suggested it's a lie and when they've begun to acknowledge that the myth may have been a cover up in recent years they've pointed the finger to bishops at the local level despite all of the evidence that clearly exposes the fact that this cover up was directed at the most senior level from the vatican i always wonder why those most

of this. you know if you ponder upon you think why do all this sex abuse and sex scandals are within the catholic church maybe being celibate is not something that is required for a pris by the bible right now it's not required for critique orthodox church for my priest has like 8 kids so other christian churches do not require celibacy from chris the orthodox church like i said even encourages priests to have families at some point the roman phrase could marry as well if i remember correctly so maybe if . it isn't something that is set in stone could it be overturned do you think that could partially help the problem could the pope say one day enough of this and go and find wives would that maybe help get rid of this problem a couple of quick things i mean 1st of all we know about what's happening within the roman catholic church i think in part because of its size and scale and its global influence the fact that we've been able to expose more faults happening

right across the roman catholic world that's become a huge and significant issue but i should say that as a as a therapist i've worked with many people who've been abused within different faiths and within different religious sessions and churches so it's not unique to the roman catholic church but the roman catholic church is perhaps unique because of its global reach and scale. on the question of the link between celibacy and pedophilia i don't think the link is a direct one in the way that you're suggesting as. indeed there's no research to suggest that it has and just personally as a man i don't understand how a requirement to be celibate would somehow turn. an adult into somebody who was sexually assaulted child if i'm in a position where i'm being forced to be celibate and i don't feel that i can manage that i may well decide but i have a clandestine sexual relationship with another adult but not with

a child. require our you know needing to break the requirement. celibacy doesn't turn people into child rapists it perhaps turns people into people who have hidden sexual adult relationships and you know there's there's no link to suggest something between between the 2. however the fact. the catholic church is an institution and the priesthood is a vocation an institution within which one hides one are denies one's sexual south that itself may or may be one of the reasons why he explained people with very dark and sinister aspects to their sexuality or their sexual conduct are attracted to it and equally it's a role that gives and has given people extraordinary access to children and i don't question control and access to children so the ability for a sexual offender to access victims to be free to abuse with with impunity has been

extraordinary so i think those are the dimensions of the church its structure the structure of the priesthood the fact that the church not only want to prevent abuse from happening but it will collude in it being corrupt it will facilitate us it is often seen the priest almost as a victim and the child as the tempter of the priest it's over it's concern has generally been for the priest and for the institution another role for the victim just really briefly because we're running out of time but if you take away the white colors and the organ sounds other stories of sexual abuse will end up looking very similar to those who just discussed the way i talk to women who suffered rape in the u.s. military the same attempts to cover up to shame the victim are there it's the same there are many cases of sexual abuse of minors in boarding schools orphanages you mention that as well is the church really that different from the rest of the world and as regards i feel like it's probably maybe a marrow of the society. absolutely norm in the church at the end of the day

despite its proclamation of itself as a divine institution it's a human institution it's run by people it's run by men and we are flawed and we don't always conduct ourselves properly. and institutions generally work to protect themselves and the more powerful the institution the more money the more authority the more position of house the more aggressively and even violently it's inclined to protect itself and we see that right across the world i worked for many years in the united kingdom we saw their major investigations into historic abuse of children in council run homes and in homes in institutions that were run by the state their institutions work to protect themselves and again that's why it's incredibly important that we have laws put in place by the states that ensure and demand good child protection practice but also punish those who would cover up or facilitate these crimes as well as those who perpetrate them called thank you so much for. your interview for your time for this inside will wish you all the best

of luck in everything that you're doing. thank you very much and i hope you succeed for talking to call in the warm and survivor insider sexual abuse to a man who's sick the vatican about the crisis the catholic church is going through the latest child sex abuse revelations that's it for this edition of so i'll see you next time.

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