to a recent meeting of top aides he wasn't even invited he was uninvited pompei oh the secretary of state refuses to sign off on the deal nobody knows what the deal looks like except his interlocutors and carter it's the white house is at war with it so far over this policy and the president is facing a reelection where he knows this is going to be an issue on the table so you may get peace of eventually in afghanistan but you're getting more war in the white house over the war in afghanistan so it's it's very very confusing i've never seen a white house in this much disarray peter ok in design let me go it's go to our guest in kabul i mean a decade ago at the beginning of this decade there was 100000 american troops in afghanistan now with this proposed plan i don't even know why they call it peace because it's only as with those troops remaining peace will not come there is still an occupation there in the eyes of many but if we go from 100000 troops to $8500.00 what is the 8500 going to do the 100000 couldn't do go ahead in kabul. who are

media were to back to 2001 i remember person bush assertion in the senate and he was telling that we're going to afghanistan to do 4 fundamental things number one we have to cripple terrorism in the country because that had been have been the sponsor for the day and we have to them 2nd was the sustainable economic development there was the forces improvement in finally the human rights and democracy off to teen years let's judge the whole mission with the result we have right now in hain't i think there has been some wrong military started some duty tricks some political or wrong maneuvers both by the afghan go i mean by that is not allies and also the united states i hope that you should have been doing grant just recently you know him and his honesty and it's our idea you can go through checking all the boxes you want but nation building for afghanistan is an utter complete failure it's cost about

a trillion dollars thousands of american troops countless numbers of afghans ok let me go over to max why do we keep this sharod going and what is the geopolitical interest the united states has in being in afghanistan at all now go ahead max. i think that washington isn't approaching this correctly i think you're asking exactly the right question which is what i mean caught in afghanistan here and i think that we need to deal with it to counter terrorism against to the. associated groups as well as rival groups in that country the united states has one being caught in afghanistan and that is to prevent another 911 to prevent the church or even from being used as a safe haven to launch a title suggests the united states i'm in favor of the united states with drawing from afghanistan but interestingly i guess i'm not in favor of negotiating with the

taliban i think that the negotiations or indeed of course this is a group we have no you central trust in the agenda it's all over the table well for example oh we're pushing the notion that the trial is being should co-exist peacefully with the government but we're making all sorts of stipulations about human rights in that country none of those things are going to happen i think that the united states should talk to the tower and say if we're all were and say look we're leaving the country but if your country again is used as a safe even try to launch attacks against us we might return yeah we're going to go to max i think i said max that is based on that basically the deal but that's not that's basically the deal ok i mean the taliban are to keep isis and al qaeda out and if they don't they will suffer the consequences when we go back to

daniel i mean after 20 and 18 years of the american involvement in its allies and then the decade but 2 decades before the soviet one i think most people in afghanistan are probably had enough of foreign occupation and i think that at. end of the day it would doesn't really matter if you could trust the taliban or not i mean giving the believe the implicit belief that you can or cannot trust them the united states is imprisoned itself into afghanistan forever why are they calling the shots go ahead daniel. while the. also had safe haven in florida and berlin to to their training so good at logic we should be bombing those countries those states countries as well this is all the fig leaf didn't go through a fig leaf the taliban is in the driver's seat this is the fall of saigon moment it's been thinking long and by the continued boneheaded us presence there but it's all over the war was over when it started because nobody knows nobody knew what

victory looks like america has turned against the war look at all the recent polls even the us military members of the military have turned against the war this is a vietnam moment it's a side gone movement the best that the trump administration can hope for is to maintain some semblance of dignity as we run and get the hell out of there very good and does our i mean daniel got ahead of my skis here mentioning that saigon i mean this is really what's in play here everyone knows the american effort and its allies is over it it's ended in failure nobody wants to admit that that it was a total waste of time wasted mission i have the numbers here that daniel is mentioned 59 percent of american adults and 58 percent of veterans say the war in afghanistan is not worth fighting how do you react to that in this our go ahead and couple. what i think the american has been shooting itself in the feet by themselves they're just breaking their own i think that has been right option on

the table they didn't choose what they were only killing the taliban or only only they had an option that they have to put the terrorism including taliban they were getting mixed messages they had not specific definition for any. in friend they were not specifying the process for peace and in conflict today even as a person who is keeping vigilant eye on the process in qatar in washington and afghanistan i'm still confused that what really the donald trump plays in the game what they want i mean exactly if you would like to win this complex peace negotiation we have to be and rebuilding 3 important question who we are what we do with who we deal and what we want i think these fundamental questions still remain unanswered in and i hold that it would have been answered maybe the kid to go still we have an option here on table and they're going to have 2 options right now

whether they have to bow down they have to decamping leave to the united states that could be if you ask me is defeat will lead to thinking a deal with the taliban so no it depends back on the smart move of the washington ians including. very good playing a consensus rule in washington but he failed to receive the support of the afghan government including person danny i think you would have a review with the times report recently that elect bush has been very candid on each other's are and it's not a good thing again let me go let me go to max i mean because daniel brought it up let's go back in history ok let's go back. to the vietnam war beside gone government wasn't involved in the in the secret talks that the nixon administration had with hanoi this is the same thing going all over again and why are why isn't the cowboy government there because they're essentially useless and they're corrupt and why should you support

a government that's not going to fight and protect its own interests they'll run away just as fast when the last american helicopter leaves they'll be right behind so why should we be dealing with that government either i mean at least the taliban they control it least half the country. go ahead max. this is exactly why the negotiations are a bad idea because i do think that the united states is getting out of afghanistan but i do think that when we do the situation will deteriorate even more you know when that happens oh everyone's going to point to the united states and say ha ha this is a saigon moment you know that this was a complete. you know but it doesn't i think that we could get out in a cheaper way with lower reputational costs we're at the united states simply admit the truth of that which is that things are going to get worse but that is not

what we're focusing on our goal is strictly to prevent another $911.00 like attack but we cannot be out for the uk in government we cannot vouch for human rights we cannot vouch for reduction in tell him violence against the people of afghanistan we need to do you limit what our goals are and be honest about what's going to happen ok daniel 30 seconds phyllis finish off our program 1st half of the program go ahead. well the problem with that is there are enormous political risks for the us to actually admit that it was a mistake and so i agree in principle with what professor abrams said but the reality of u.s. politics as soon as trump or the top administration said something like that boom it's all over this is a presidential campaign we're talking about above all it's about policy in the 2nd have the program on to talk about domestic politics we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on afghanistan stayed with her.

during the great depression which i'm old enough to remember there was most of my family were working. there wasn't it was bed you know much worse objective listen day but there was an expectation of the things were going to get better. there was a real sense of hopefulness there isn't today today's america where shaped by the 10 principles of concentration of wealth and power. reduce democracy attack so low down engineer elections manufacture consent and other principles according to. one set of rules for the rich. that's what happens when you put her into the. sector of will switch

will is dedicated to increasing power for chills just as you'd expect one of the most influential intellectuals of our time speaks about the modern civilization of america. compared to centuries of chinese history to me is nothing unless budgets to he is a donald trump. with yet another round of terrorists being added to the us the new trade will this last week these china's strategy of waiting out the enemy likely to work with the current american president. today there are good terrorists and bad deadens the bad and those in yemen the united states deems to be a threat the good those one in syria the cia and the u.s.

military were engaged in covert actions really throughout the world. where they were assassinating populist leaders they were backing up the right way military quintos funding an army of death squads there's no phones anymore because there's always a small people for a really good this is a profit. you know world of big partisan lot and conspiracy it's time to wake up to dig deeper to hit the stories that mainstream media refuses to tell more than ever we need to be smarter we need to stop slamming the door on the back and shouting past each other it's time for critical thinking it's time to fight for the middle for the truth the time is now for watching closely watching the

hawks. what politicians do something. they put themselves on the line to get accepted or rejected. so when you want to be president or injury. or somehow want to. have to go right to be press this is like the full story in the morning can't be good. i'm interested always in the waters in the house. or city hall.

hello and welcome to cross talk were all things considered i'm peter lavelle after

almost 2 decades of war and occupation american military involvement in afghanistan appears to be winding down a deal with the taliban the majority of american troops leave while still allowing a sizable contingent to remain just what exactly is washington's geo political interest to be in afghanistan with america's longest war ever and. cross talking afghanistan i'm joined by my guess is our guardian in kabul he is the director of center for development and peace studies in lake jackson we cross to daniel mcadams he is the executive director of the ron paul institute for peace and prosperity and in boston we have max abrams he is a professor of political science at northeastern university as well as author of rules for rebels the science of victory in militant history or a gentleman crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate daniel let me go to you they're talking about

a peace process in afghanistan. talks between the united states and the taliban and it not very many people are happy about it ok because either too many troops are leaving or too many troops are staying and i don't even know what this process is because the afghan government kabul government wasn't even involved in it i mean what is this a half a glass full half a glass empty what does it mean to you other than we need to get out of there after almost 2 decades go ahead daniel. what's fascinating is they need a peace process in the white house because if you look at the fighting over this document john bolton was. invited to to a recent meeting of top aides he wasn't even invited he was uninvited pompei oh the secretary of state refuses to sign off on the deal nobody knows what the deal looks like except his interlocutors and carter it's the white house is at war with it so far over this policy and the president is facing a reelection where he knows this is going to be an issue on the table so you may

get peace of eventually in afghanistan but you're getting more war in the white house over the war in afghanistan so it's it's very very confusing i've never seen a white house in this much disarray peter ok it is our let me go it's go to our guest in kabul i mean a decade ago at the beginning of this decade there was 100000 american troops in afghanistan now with this proposed plan i don't even know why they call it peace because it's not as with those troops remaining peace will not come in there is still an occupation there in the eyes of many but if we go from 100000 troops to 8500 what is the 8500 going to do the 100000 couldn't do go ahead in kabul. who will let media were to back to 2001 i remember person bush assertion in the senate and he was telling that we're going to afghanistan to do for fundamental things number one we have to cripple terrorism in the country because that has been have been the sponsor for the day and we have to purge lies the 2nd was the

sustainable economic development there was the forces improvement and finally the human rights and democracy after 18 years let's judge the whole mission with the result we have right now in hain't i think there has been some wrong military strategies some duty tricks some political wrong men nowheres blood by the afghan government that is not allies and also the united state i hope that you should have been doing grant i just recently you know him and his honesty and his are i can go through checking all the boxes you want but nation building for afghanistan is an utter complete failure it's cost about a trillion dollars thousands of american troops countless numbers of afghans ok let me go over to max why do we keep this shirat going and what is the geopolitical interest the united states has in being in afghanistan at all now go ahead max. i think that washington is approaching this correctly i think you're asking exactly

the right question which is where it's. going to here and i think we need to limit it to counter terrorism against 2. associated groups as well as right groups in that column for the united states has one being caught you know. and that is to prevent another 911 to prevent the church or even from being used as a safe haven to launch or try to suggest the united states well i'm in favor of the united states with drawing from afghanistan but interestingly i guess i'm not in favor. of negotiating with the taliban i think that the negotiations or indeed of course this is a group we have no central trust in the agenda it's all over the table for oh we're pushing to do. should co-exist peacefully with the government but we're

making all sorts of stipulations about human rights in that time 3 none of those things are going to happen i think that the united states should talk to them. and see if we're all and say look we're leaving the country but if your country again yes you see even try to launch attacks against us we might return you know we're going to go to max. max that is. basically the deal but that's up that's basically the deal ok i mean the taliban are to keep isis and al qaeda out and if they don't they will suffer the consequences let me go back to daniel i mean after 20 and 18 years of the american involvement in its allies and then the decade 2 decades before the soviet one i think most people in afghanistan have probably had enough of foreign occupation and i think that at the end of the day it would doesn't really matter if you could trust the taliban or not i mean

given the believe the implicit belief that you can or cannot trust them the united states is imprisoned itself into afghanistan forever why are they calling the shots go ahead daniel. well the. also had safe haven in florida and berlin to to their training so good at logic we should be bombing those countries those states countries as well this is all the fig leaf the negotiations are a fig leaf the taliban is in the driver's seat this is the fall of saigon moment it's been thinking long and by the continued boneheaded u.s. presence there but it's all over the war was over when it started because nobody knows nobody knew. what victory looks like america has turned against the war look at all the recent polls even the us military members of the military have turned against the war this is a vietnam moment it's a side gone moment the best that the trump administration can hope for is to maintain some semblance of dignity as we run and get the hell out of there very

good and as our i mean daniel got ahead of my skis here mentioning that saigon i mean this is really what's in play here everyone knows the american effort and its allies is over it it's ended in failure nobody wants to admit that that it was a total waste of time waste of mission i have the numbers here that daniel is mentioned 59 percent of american adults and 58 percent of veterans say the war in afghanistan is not worth fighting how do you react to that in this our go ahead and couple. what i think the american has been shooting itself in the feet by themselves they're just breaking their own i think that has been right option on the table they didn't choose what they were only killing the taliban or almost only they had an option that they have to provide the terrorism including taliban they were getting mixed messages there not specific definition for enemy in friend they were not specifying the process for peace and conflict today even as

a person who is keeping vigilant eye on the process in qatar in washington in afghanistan still confused that what treaty the donald trump plays in the game what they want i mean exactly if you would like to win this complex peace negotiation we have to be and rebuilding 3 important question who we are what we do with who we deal and what we want i think these fundamental questions still remain unanswered in and i hold that it would have been answered maybe decayed ago still we have an option here on table and they're going to have 2 options right now whether they have to buy. now down they have to decamping leave to the united states there could be a few asco even i mean years defeat will lead to the inking a deal with the taliban so now it depends back on the smart move of the washington ians including how it's up. this is very good playing a consensus rule in washington but he failed to receive the support of the afghan

government including person danny i think you would have reviewed the times report recently that elect bush has been 101 each others are and it's not a good thing again let me go to max i mean because daniel brought it up let's go back in history ok let's go back. to the vietnam war miss saigon government wasn't involved in the in the secret talks that the nixon administration had with hanoi this is the same thing going all over again and why and why isn't the cowboy government there because they're essentially useless and they're corrupt and why should you support a government that's not going to fight and protect its own interests they'll run away just as fast when the last american helicopter leaves they'll be right behind so why should we be dealing with that government either i mean at least the taliban they control it least half the country go ahead max. this is exactly we're going to

go she should are about i don't you know this because i do think that the united states is carrying. on but i do think that when we do the situation will deteriorate even more you know when that happens everyone's going to point to the united states and how hard this is a saigon or. you know if this was a complete story you know but it doesn't i think that we could get out in a cheaper way with lower costs we're at the united states simply admit the truth which is that things aren't going to get worse but. oh what a. rickly to prevent another $911.00 like a truck oh we cannot vouch for the government we cannot vouch for human rights we cannot vouch for reduction in tokyo. the people of afghanistan we

need to do you limit what your goals are and be honest about what's going to happen ok daniel 30 seconds phyllis finish off our program 1st half of the program go ahead well the problem with that is there are enormous political risks for the u.s. to actually admit that it was a mistake and so i agree in principle with what professor abrams said but the reality of u.s. politics as soon as trump or the trump instruction said something like that boom it's all over this is a presidential campaign we're talking about above all it's about policy in the 2nd half the program on the talk about domestic politics we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on afghanistan state with our. next as a spinal survival god stacee let's learn

a salad let's say i'm not sure i get your police response thank you have to fight. thank you for helping. the story that's right. slavery. a report from a conservative watchdog group claims that there is a covert multimillion dollar scheme to boost left wing movements across the u.s. . italy's former interior minister faces charges of inciting violence against a german rescue boat captain who illegally docked on italian shores with dozens of migrants. and of the u.s. carries out military exercises near venezuela's borders in line with its apparent strategy of surrounding the enemy.