problem to focus on is that china because of its economic structure has had certain advantages in terms of the development of its own market that all the countries more advanced countries including you know what the states including europe have not been able to to obtain but this is not uncommon in terms of the historical development so countries that are rising often cut off their own more kids to foreign competition the worst sin of that i can think of in historical sense in this case is you know the states which for a very long time was the most difficult country in the late 19th and early 20th century to get access to for all of them were drawn to the quantum is so these notes this is not surprising now i'm not so sure how advanced the thinking is strategically with regard to tariffs so i think you're right in saying that some of the us view on china is changing but i think that's just to do. with everyone who is thinking about foreign policy or discussing foreign policy here at

the moment and that has us much to do with the relative reduction in the overall american position it has to do with the royce of china so what i'm saying is that i don't think the trumpet ministration has a particularly top or well strata joist attitude or a policy toward china but i also don't think that this administration is necessarily do worse administration that china could face i could easily imagine a democratic administration coming into the white house off to the next election that would be asked tough if not tougher on china know now professor west that you said a moment ago that china is competing just like everybody else and i think the argument prevailing in the white house at the moment is that china is competing in in an absolutely unique way like no one has done before and i mentioned. before one of he said bass no on the boards of both in the west one of his most revered works in china is they are at the. war which focuses on the exact same thing know

how to advance and win while awaiting direct confrontation you know the use of delay and deceit the use of spying temporis admission that cetera if one sees that as a cornerstone of the chinese worldview is it at all surprising that people like steve bannon and michael pillsbury with ultimately see china strategy as aggressive and aiming to take something away from the united states. then i think they take. losses for who lived more than 2000 years ago a little bit too seriously aren't chanos are to to to go outside world is dominated by politics current politics and not the ancient philosophy i spent most of the 1st part of this year in beijing met a lot of policymakers i don't think they are a day have much to advance in terms of their understanding of chinese history although both don't trump house of american history which is to say very very little so i don't think that's the issue here i think very often you find an

overrating or for china is able to do on the western side and especially on the u.s. side and that frightened sort of people now look who shouldn't over look the issue on the chinese to do something or competition that there is an attempt very concerted attempt to steal secrets from foreign companies to obtain them for free that there is a link between an increasingly or 3 tarion chinese to do ship and what they have been able to do in terms of getting controlled economy all of that is true but the idea that china is somehow in totally different from what's happening in the rest of the world that's the one object at the same time in your own book you do provide a segment basis for a sort of philosophical clash you you mention several concepts that essential to the chinese press option of the world and one of them is the concept of justice particularly as it relates to china's own place in the world this feeling that

china's loss of influence in the previous centuries was unjust that china is now trying to regain what rightfully belongs to it and ultimately that's that's an odds of it the american perception of the world to be cheese any rising power as a stance if aggressive and aiming to take something away from america do you think those perceptions how things a supposed to be with ever be reconciled i think it's always very hard when you have been a joy. meant in terms of power between rising powers and status quo post some index what we have seen throughout history does also true with regard to china no you absolutely right in part of course because you quote in my book. in saying that china is allowed to regain what it sees its its position within eastern asia and i think that's going to happen i mean china is the most populous country within the region it is seen as the center within the region not these now when in economic

terms and i think there is very little over a long period of time that you know the states can do to prevent that the question is how do we get from here to there. awarding this quite natural great power why bilbrey from moving on to a full scale conflict and eventually war that's the key issue i think at the moment so there will be there will be conflicts connected to the royce of china that's not that's not surprising but the question is how it happens and i think people in beijing also very aware of what is so this is part of the reason why a lot of people now dead are very concerned about what's happening and do the rapid deterioration in the u.s. china relationship now another point that you make in your book is how well integrated china is into the global economy and into the american economy much more than any rising power before it when president trump talks about the crumbling of chinese manufacturing as he did on twitter does the other day cab he be sure that some of those big debris won't land on his own shores no he can't i mean i think

china is intimately connected to the global economy and the way it works. i think if there is a severe clause in terms of the chinese economy that's going to hurt everyone and i think one of the choices that this administration has to make and its successor administration whenever that comes in also will have to make is whether u.s. strategic interests or sole. dominant in terms of how do you know the states or to view the world that it would prioritise such a decline in spite of the negative consequences it would have for the us economy over seeking a more collaborative relationship with china in spite of the political and strategic differences so in other words the big question is will one on the us saw it and the chinese side for that matter decide that one can compete and cooperate at the same time or will the competition move in the direction of an overall. clash

which will have both economic and political and military. consequences in a very negative sense for both countries i think that would also depend on how far they trumpet ministrations a bishop is go do you think they would be satisfied with in a limited concessions on that terry of that intellectual property rights or od they indeed out to destroy or undermine state capitalism as a system as an ideological concept if you will no i think they would like to do that at all but i think they're all a number of people within this administration who understand that would be would be very difficult. may be unattainable if you if you think about china's direction so i think there are some severe weaknesses in terms of how the chinese economy works at the moment i think economic reform to try to been taken forward has in many ways stalled as a 1st and foremost a problem for the chinese but i think in the way that this is seen by body trump

administration i think politically because they have an election coming up what they would like to do is to have some kind of agreement which trump condemn present us a great week story which will form part of his platform for the for the reelection campaign. whether such a deal is going to be last thing that is the big question and i'm i'm very doubtful with regard to the not. because you know if the states is all to undo deep political or economic system in china but but simply because the the trade and economic contradictions between the 2 countries also strong well professor west that we have to take a very short break now but we will be back in just a few moments.

during the great depression which i'm old enough to remember there was most of my family were unemployed working class there wasn't it was bed you know much worse objective listen today but there was an expectation that things were going to get better. there was a real sense of hopefulness there isn't today today's america was shaped by the turn principles of concentration of wealth and power. reduced democracy attack solo down engineer elections manufacture consent and other principle holds according to no on chomsky one set of rules for the rich opposite several from. that's what happens when you put her into the hands of a narrow sector of will switch rule is dedicated to increasing power for itself just as you'd expect one of the most influential intellectuals of our time speaks

about the modern civilization of america. what politicians do something. they put themselves on the line and they get accepted or rejected. so when you want to express. something wanted. to do like to be crossed. what before 3 in the morning can people get. interested always in the water using the cottage. first sip. well you know that they were kind of adopted because we were called pirates for so long. of being there in the small boats next to the harpoon ships and it's still very. much up in. the little self to be

told fish already 90 percent of it daryn got any pinball a good cause or. concept 15 scoops 75 tons of it do it several times a day with a big fleet oh you get an idea on why. we have to understand we can all stay still and just. be with them this will be used the old boy is ours. i'm doing this because i want the future world to the future can generations to have and enjoy the ocean we have. on.

earth. welcome back to worlds apart with the odds are that wes that professor of history of global affairs at the university professor was that the world often they accuse is china alls. stealing ideas let's put it this way but as i was reading your book it occurred to me that the chinese man approach it differently because. you provide many historic examples of them trying to emulate not just industrial designs but whole chunks of other country's political and economic systems 1st it was the soviet one then that was the american the one that they tried to recreate according to their own needs and understandings how does china go about. choosing

what it wants to take when it comes to those. large strategic things. well as us russians we know better than anyone and this is of course connected to chinese politics and the directions that chinese politics have been taken over a fairly long period of time so the 1st in many ways encounter with the west for china was to disorient union and was true communism which completely transformed the country and then starting in the late 19th seventies china started under different political leadership to think in a direction of using market mechanisms in order to transform the country and i've been tremendously successful in doing so which is one of the reasons why i did chinese communist party is still in power while the soviet communist party is long gone so i think china has had an incredible ability to pick up ideas not always the best suited ideas but different kinds of ideas from elsewhere implementing them and this is why i call. china in many ways

a hybrid civilization the way it comes up no i mean it it consists of domestic traditions some domestic ideals but it's also taken an immense amount in from elsewhere yes but it also got them in trouble with the americans and to some extent europeans because even before. heard the europeans complaining about china is dealing that trade designed to be a very quietly now intellectual property rights are clearly essential to the current dispute and the trumpet ministration seems to believe that china's growth could be slowed down they've this capacity for appropriation is somewhat curtailed do you bill believe that to be the case do you think china at this point can fuel its own innovation that without relying on technology transfers from other countries no i don't think any country is capable of developing and so an economy well without access to ideas and to science and patents don't have been developed

elsewhere i mean the point here and this is a correct point i think coming from the u.s. administration is that chinese companies from the. and his government have to do this in a way step all in conformity with what happens elsewhere in the world according to international standards for these consequences now china is not the only cinema my friends who know much more about his than what i do. convincing me that china has made significant improvements in terms of intellectual property rights overall but i do think that there is still a problem there is still an issue that needs to be either a sort of the current us administration probably overstates it but there is an issue that china needs to resolve for its own interests as well as the rest of the world now according to your book china had the soviet era we talked a little bit about it the american you know which ironically america is now trying to bring in and to what do you think will come next real china have a genuinely chinese era. i don't think any country really in this day and age can

afford to turn inward but it's also a misunderstanding with impulse of the chinese communist pope is so what do you think that's really striking in the political discourse in beijing today is the number of people to be close to power who are saying that some of that what i call the american era in china sort of off to denounce and seventy's was a mistake right that china needs to return war to its own roots and become more independent of the outside world i think that would be really difficult to do china needs to stay integrate to do i think there also policymakers in beijing who realize this that this is china's interest as long as the chinese economy still needs to grow very substantially to deal with domestic problems including rising inequality poverty in some parts of the of the country so i think the idea overturning from this engagement with the outside world and because i'm more in

with looking simply is not is not an alternative which on china has to stay involved what it wants to do i think and look at its relation. but russia on this is to broaden its ability to work with different powers in different parts of the world and that's i think is a is a is a sensible strategy you often make a point that china needs to create a better system of governance particularly finding a better balance between regional and the central levels and if you also meant tade that vertically integrated system has 3rd that well how do you see you know i don't know i hesitate calling it a democracy but the chinese characteristics about how do you see the system that china could develop that would both give its citizens more opportunity to express themselves including politically but also preserve the efficiency that the chinese are so proud elf right that's a very good question i mean what china needs to do and this i think is the biggest

challenge actually bigger than the relationship which. is to make it possible for ordinary chinese to feel that they have a bigger stake in terms of the development of the country and that includes to do more in terms of freedom of speech freedom of organization i don't think china you know lifetime is going to be anything like a democracy in participatory terms but it needs to become a much more open society and that's the problem i think that the current chinese leadership that he says don't very little about dealing with these kinds of issues internally and therefore pressure is building and i think the very significant economic downturn and charm know if it comes. and it will come at some point you know could have really serious political consequences inside inside the country because chinese are very proud of what they have achieved. over the last generation and a half but there is also

a need i think now for political reform that would make it possible for people to feel that they have more of a stake. in this remarkable transformation that china has gone through you often talk about how the kidneys believe that they are a system is superior to that of the west and i think in this regard donald trump is every interesting historic phenomenon because he is putting the chinese system to historic test he's also putting the western system to quite a substantial task which of these 2 systems do you think. may withstand the chum test better. i am very tempted to answer need or of them. i think there are severe challenges and now in terms of governance in europe and you know the states i think to a severe test to governance in china and in russia i think the most important thing is that people who have their own concerns who want to see things develop maybe in

a different way than what has happened before or actually listened to by the elites and body by the people in in power and that it doesn't all because an issue either or 3 tarion rulers in incheon on to some extent in russia or the kind of populist form of democracy that you're seeing in the united states and europe that the challenge share for china to come back to that is that the room conclusion i think now for chinese leaders to drop is that the resoled much trouble in the west that this makes it possible for china to keep the current of system of government in place that they have now forever with any attempt at serious reform it at the political level or in terms of the political economy dot i think would be historical mistake this may be in many ways open an opportunity for china to say ok look this is what we want to go this is how we want to improve seriously improve governance within our own country when the economic going is still relatively good

. i know that in the 1st part of your career you were mainly preoccupied with the history of the cold war you mentioned the soviet union and the soviet rivalry and i know also that you're very adamant that what we're seeing now between beijing and washington is not a repeat or a replay of the cold war how would you characterize what's going on between these 2 great nations. i think what we see coming back to what we talked about earlier is a great poet that ramon speak quite a lot of what happened back in the 19th century meaning that there are several powers that compete for influence and for controlled within the regions so what we're looking at now is not a bipolar system like during the cold war where you have royal ideologies in terms of how society should be organized and economy should be organized you have a conflict and are widely read between several great powers where the main point as

we see in the current trade conflict is to get more for oneself it's not about you know fundamentally changing the global system in terms of the way it works it's not even rival systems of governance because that's not a key issue here it is a boat you know getting more in international trade in terms of resources in terms of international finance for one's own country and that i think is what's going to characterize the global system as it develops from oh but i'm not saying that that is less dangerous necessarily than even a cold war i think it could become a very dangerous forms of competition but it's just a different kind of competition from what we saw during the cold war i heard you say that the more the united states and china bit each other more room for maneuver ah their powers will have and being from russia naturally interested how do you think moscow can leverage they thrive agree for its own benefit and for the benefit of the world but i think russia could leverage it must. both for its own benefit

and for the benefit of the world but it depends on how russia handles the situation that still no i mean if the russian leadership believes that this is the moment to get as close to china as possible in order to have some kind of a united front against us dominated world i don't think russia is making use of that leverage for maybe a good historical examples all over how dangerous the. kind of you know throwing one's lot in with with one so it would actually be maybe especially for russia or in russia china relationship but if russia tried to deal with the problems you know around its own borders when it tried to deal with us russia that's where the relationship however difficult it is in a way that made it possible to leverage both sides i think that would be an immense advantage for russia and probably lead to broader stability in terms of the world over a few years ago you described my country as

a dissatisfied scavenger on the fringes of the current order and it's evident to me that you didn't try to hide the ideas they had there but don't you think that this scavenger as you put it may prove to be a crucial to both china and the united states as the balance or if the rivalry indeed continues to deepen i'm sorry for that formulation but what i was trying to say is that the way russia has spent over the post decade or so is very much not engaging with what are the central issues in terms of global governance but broader issues that have to do immediately with its own beliefs is natural for any country right which is true to some extent for any country but not for congress who want to see themselves as a global power necessarily i think that's the that's the question so so what russia has to do is to decide what it wants to be i mean does it want to move back into having

a strong global position or those that want to antagonize most of its neighbors spoilt by insisting on its own rights or on the its borders so it is possible to do both but the there is usually a price to pay for that i mean it's really it's really difficult to do both politically in this kind of situation where it's clear that russia is compared to do not the states and china is not a rising power in a global sense particularly with regard to its economy. so. formulation what i'm trying to say is that you know what russia needs to do is to up its game it needs to think of itself a smooth and what it is at the moment and that it can actually play an important global balancing role but only if it takes its responsibility while professor west that let's leave the debate on russia for some other time in the meantime let me thank you for being with us today and sharing your perspective it has been a great pleasure i invite have yours to keep this conversation going on our social media pages and hope to see you again same place same time here on the wilds of

part. of. she stressed to make sure that the boat nash wasn't at the middle of bunch up in the. south direction was telling you she didn't taste the taste fishies have a seat which quite a long. time and i know what you

mean and i must get your car a moment a man or shan't. want to go to the show because of my it's your bonus for she be. good to mr ellsworth supporters are still with him spilled over for fishing to be a valuable piece that it's a studio actually of course and very vocal for sure it's just the same spirit. expressed. today there are good dentists and bad at it it's the bad terrorists and those in yemen who the united states deems to be a threat the looked at it is those who work in syria the cia and the us military were engaged in covert actions really throughout the world. where they were assassinating populist leaders they were backing up the right way military funding and arming death squads there's no any more because there's always

a small people for a really good this is for profit. so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have it's crazy fun dacian let it be an arms race off and spearing dramatic development only mostly i'm going to resist i don't see how that strategy will be successful very critical of time time to sit down and talk. is this is a stick up from the water bottle phone in the stomach of the fish the brand is sponsor of the coca-cola company which sells millions of bottles of soda every day the idea was that let's tell consumers there are the bad ones there the litter bugs are throwing this away industry should be blamed for all this waste the company has long promised to reuse the plastic. seats to cook out soon 6 feet so.

that seems will settle something their classes. stay on you especially from the meter. on the new vest that is the end of it for the teeth of fun now the mountains of waste only grow higher.

than your. millions a cent being made weapons reportedly end up in the hands of terrorists in yemen and syria after they were postponed the u.s. timed its allies to link documents obtained by apple gary and sell it. by a price that's a very fine deal and if you don't know where you think. you're going to go. they are all thank you. for and businesses are looted in the south african city of johannesburg in a wave of anti immigrant kids find a problem on finding a mate on duty cold called them big break they shove they don't know all the blood bit inside and to stand on your plates to me and sometimes i'm going to fly your schools. and be.