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hello and welcome to crossfire all things considered i'm peter lavelle there are growing indications the west's anti russia's stance may be softening a case in point is the recent visit of france's top diplomat and defense minister or take for example the new york times editorial calling on trump to better relations with the kremlin as a way to block china the important question remains can moscow trust the west anymore. cross talking a thaw in relations i'm joined by my guest in a new well you point in paris he is the president of the institute for european perspective and security and. we have lucre of

a he is an independent journalist and in brussels we rush to john laughlin he's a political scientist and historian all right gentlemen cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate it many well let me go to you in paris i will make the the obvious admission i very rarely had good things to say about the french president emanuel mccrone however however i'll make important. his vision for security in europe is it's time has come i have to say it's time is finally come it's taken a lot of courage it's a bold statement to make and i think it. really makes people reassess the situation because the relationship between the between europe and russia and the united states and russia is not where it should be it doesn't necessarily have to be that way the europeans are taking an initiative here through the french president what does he want to achieve is that just for his own political gain at home does he

want to take the mantle of the western world is he wary of the united states does he see a paradigm shift going on here what it's the root of this here go ahead emmanuel in paris well it's 0 of what you've mentioned but i asked to admit that it is not a european position and then of course not speaking on behalf of the european union i mean and france is a president sharing the g 7 at least till the end of the year but it is not at the head of european union finland is leading that is it has been dismissed france ability since last july i think the position of france which is of course a new paradigm which is a shift must also be put into consider taking into consideration for very. obvious agenda you mentioned the domestic agenda it is true that as bit as been a lot shouted on this position in regards to the internal policy. this

leading him not to have a diplomatic agenda which of course is has been put aside with the presidency of the g. 7 and starting with the g. 7 summit in delhi it's really assessing the necessity to be a president confident president speaking not on behalf of europe as i mentioned been on behalf of the most healthy as country in europe germany is in with the cancer under michael in a very difficult internal policy the coalition between a speedy and who is a bit weak and of course we've seen in the recent regional elections that extreme right as a lot. put a lot of pressure on the council here in great britain the agenda of the brics it is now linked to the internal survival agenda of brian johnson bringing him not to be having a say or not sufficiently willing or being capability to have

a say on the international agenda and to a recent. 2 recent. level 2 recent dates the italian. internal policy of course prevented former and now newly reelected. nominated does it become to be part of the international agenda so france is now assessing the fact that india rising of the next general assembly of the nation it is pushing a certain number. of suitable fives on which it wants to have a unique or. let's say let me let me get a job here that you have rational there's a lot of very good point here but i like france can't do this in a vacuum ok it is a european project at the end of the day if other european countries want to join in that's another question nonetheless france is an important country in the european union with briggs it looming it's important it's even more and and i do

think i agree i'm not disagreeing with that many well but it has to be a european project if there's going to be some kind of reproach multi-year go ahead john in brussels. well i remember when i would regret when i watch him and you and michael i'm reminded of a remark i once heard from a very brilliant woman who used to be very powerful under president pompidou money fosco said the french foreign policy had 2 choices whether to allow a lie with britain or with russia against germany those were the only choices facing prachi said throughout history try and when i see him anyway my point initiating this new detachment with russia i conclude that it's because the british angle has collapsed bricks it has ruined at least on the symbolic level the importance of franco british military cooperation which was france's way of counterbalancing germany within the european union and of course more prudently trump is unpredictable we know that emanuel very attached to multilateralism and we

know that donald trump is fairly attached to unilateralism so in that context france's job political choices are the same as they have been down the centuries but you ask about the european angle in what respect france's initiative which by the way as you i'm sure will but he knows it's part of a broader diplomatic initiative because my point by to the prime minister of india to be are it's to the g 7 he invited the iranian foreign minister securely france is taking a big role but in one sense this initiative is anti european because when told putin that i c. an't european i'm talking about and he e.u. when he told putin that russia was essential to the peace of the world and of europe he was if you like tearing up in front of putin's face the march resolution of the european parliament which proclaimed that russia was no longer

a strategic partner of the e.u. back home was saying that russia has to be a strategic partner of the e.u. so in terms of the e.u. as a body. this is absolutely in contradiction with the official texts and the policy of the brussels institutions but it is not in contradiction with the bilateral policy of other european states because what we haven't been noticing president putin has been all over the place in europe he was in rome in july it was in finland in august he was received in austria last year he's been to hungary he's been to serbia it's not as if russia is isolated anymore from any european state except from britain. and therefore france is initiative is european in the true sense of europe in the old tradition of european diplomacy but not of the faith diplomacy of the brussels institution luke luke weigh in on this here because i mean it i get it this is

a great idea in my personal opinion it's something if in something that the russians have been saying all the way back in the early 2000 of talking about a new security architecture for for all of europe including russia and now we have the french president basically carrying a page from putin and medvedev i mean i on our side of the line here this is nothing new what's new is we're hearing it after 5 years of deteriorating relations go ahead look. well i think the planets are aligned in a good position in a way i would stress the fact that germany has no foreign policy that's what the liberals in your position and be very strong if d.d. alternative for saying repeatedly to merkel you don't have a foreign policy look at monsieur mccall do you let him run in europe as he does in the athletes and other places so i. can should do something about this and and she knows president putin well and i think she would accept to go

a step further into direction of russia and for president michel it's very important now to give something positive because he has had so many negative things to announce and and to do lately domestically and also broad i mean his summit was a bit of everything but not much with iran i mean that a subpoena physic of a few hours and that's it by the ukrainian medicine foreign affairs so each one something to announce and he would like to be cold and tickle to say that look it up should be from the atlantic to the new routes and so he dreams himself now in the position of a new tickle to reestablish the contact with russia sending their not only the shooter to the yalta minister of foreign affairs which is normal he also sends the minister of the armies which is bring you move which will see your machine a little the little that i saw as i saw the press conference the 2 at the 2 plus 2

press conference that's the reason why we're doing this program because i couldn't believe how in sync both parties were it was astonishing ok emanuel let me go back to you in paris here now let's get down to the nitty gritty let's be friends but what does that mean what does it mean to correct. in the context of where you put it the french russian relationship how do you repair it let's talk about congo create things words are nice actions are better go ahead emmanuel. well 1st of all i see a core difference between the foreign policy and the defense policy during the press conference of the consultative council for security which by the way was not linked to the fact that russia was put out of the g. 8 after the trim election because this gathering this 2 plus 2 did not meet since 2012 it was not leaked precisely 2012 years not precisely link to

the russian bashing in a way it was linked on the fact that france i decided to have another engine done and it is not an eastern agenda but it was a southern agenda and that's akin to gender and of course linked to the read to gratian of nato and of course the implication of nato on its southern bank and its southern eastern back that's the one thing so i see a difference between the way we are advancing on the defense agenda but i think stagnating on the front policy agenda it was very clear that's also probably spoke of a certain number of subjects in which they are a lot of convergence and of course counterterrorism and fighting against both in syria and libya of course having a more robust nuclear capacity as the united states now and of course linked to the fact that the united states which came out of the. treaty of course and that the united states are reluctant to really open but they

would have to start negotiation by 2020 while there is the danger of having deregulation in regards to ballistic. i have to jump in here destruction we're going to go to a hard break and after that break we'll continue our discussion on is a far possible in relations state authority. politicians do. they put themselves on the line they get accepted or rejected. so when you want to be president and you. want to be. that's going to be press. 3 in the morning can't be good. i'm interested always in the water in the.

city. in a world of big movie lot and conspiracy it's time to wake up to dig deeper to hit the stories that mainstream media refuses to tell more than ever we need to be smart we need to stop slamming the door. and shouting past each other it's time for critical thinking it's time to fight for the middle for the truth the time is now we're watching closely watching the hawks. welcome back to cross talk where all things considered peter lavelle remind you we're discussing a thaw in relations. ok let's go back to john in brussels in looking at the news coverage of the 2 plus 2

meeting with the french ministers in moscow it did you know it got some coverage ok obviously in france but not a whole lot in the english speaking world and of all of the coverage i looked at nobody asked a really obvious question which i asked in my introduction is that why would the russians want to trust these people after 5 years of this ridiculous bashing. making accusations without proving giving evidence sanction after sanction after sanction and i won't go through all of the shenanigans going there are plenty of them there and in the meantime russia has friends in the world that it's looking to the east and to the south all the while you know we have this russia gate has steria hoax going on but the world is moved on russia has moved on it has positive economic not that not not a lot but it does have positive positive economic growth it doesn't need the west

and if the in terms of the sanctions and all that so i mean they kind of going to turn the question around i mean why would they were really want to get involved in this after all go ahead john. well i think that's an excellent question but that is in a sense exactly what the minute what the meeting was about what the meeting of the 2 the 4 minutes this was about. leon kept saying is that the goal was to build what he called an architecture oh trust and one way to start rebuilding trust which very self evidently has disappeared on both sites you are not you and i may agree with the rush. point of view but it's just a statement of political fact that the west does not trust russia however mistaken that may be chair so the 1st stage in this process as in personal relationships when you want to rebuild trust is to start talking about rebuilding trust and of course above all to start talking but there are other reasons why

i mean i don't think that russia should or should not trust anybody in international relations in a sense you never you don't base international relations on trust base you know it's all what ronald reagan used to say trust but verify you base them instead on calculations of interest and on reality and the fact is that the reality has moved on you mentioned russia gate that's over now in washington trump is calling for russia to be reintegrated into the chief ate the big point of disagreement ukraine has also moved on as i'm the last person to tell you peter we all know that the western puppet there has disappeared that the new redeem is making positive noises there'll be an exchange of prisoners and so on and you asked in your earlier question about nitty gritty that's going to be the 1st element of nitty gritty there's going to be a normandy format meeting soon and they will do as much as they can to get the

ukraine thing sorted out at least on paper that'll be the 1st thing and then the 2nd thing and this is where i think russia has an absolutely classic clear diplomatic interest in these talks it's obviously in the treaty on nucular weapons and exactly this or swear france is like every european country is directly concerned now we all understand now donald trump's shit his shtick is to walk into a room scream insults everybody at everybody and storm out again and you know throw throw all his toys out of the pram but then to come back and say one city. he did it with iran he's doing it with iran now he did it with north korea and that's probably his tactic with russia tearing up the i.n.f. treaty and then wanting a better deal but until that better deal comes europe is in an extremely dangerous situation as these intermediate nuclear weapons and indeed conventional

weapons are directed at europe yeah so there is a very real issue here which france and russia together and hopefully america in 2 calls will want to solve so it's nothing to do with trust it is to do with nitty gritty ok. as usual joe john is often on this program and makes excellent points it's good when you have to start working together because it's a necessity for both sides in our players that's a good place to start ok because the i n f treaty is something very vague for most americans because it does it's not draw it as a has nothing to do with the united states per se it has everything to do with european security and if the united states is probably as it has pulled out of it in russia reluctantly agreed to go along with it if you if you don't want to parlay doesn't work here but if it really is a necessity for europe to think about that and the russians certainly don't want to get into any kind of arms race it is not in their interest and it's not in europe's interest either go ahead look. well it's not in europe's interest as you say that

it's an interest for russia in making friends again with the europeans the west europeans especially france and germany and may be britain as well because of the war mongering that's going on in brussels at nato over the last few years now it has been rarely annoying to hear what being said by some european governments in poland in the baltic states yet about the danger russia the russian bear trying all righty to to attack on its western flank to attack northern europe why on earth president putin do that that is what i think should be no one to explain why that would be a possibility but it's a really good talking about look i lived in poland for over 10 years i know that i know that steak really well ok really well let me go to emmanuel you something that luke brought up here with this french initiative here and let's put that now let's

put it right next to it nato how is that going to work because nato needs an enemy and russia is the most convenient one i've heard all the arguments but it's true ok nato needs it needs a mission to prove that it's a necessity to as an organization and it's picked up on not terrorism not border security russia because that's the easiest one to fall back on and you have the baltic republics you have poland which i know very very well they go along with that they want poland wants a for trump ok how is mccrone going to have to square the circle with nato with his new initiative in approaching russia go ahead emmanuel. well i think this is exactly what we start about in moscow of course again mostly between sergei sure who and france probably more than between a half and drive i think of the i was more reluctant to go to moscow than france

than the minister of defense i think france pushed away this question of natal for various reasons 1st of all the narrative of the president when he speaks about the necessity to have more robust european defense he speaks about having european capabilities that are inside nato but having more autonomy its capability this is the core of the new league french initiative of ice age in french he said. which of course brings in only 10 of the 27 or 28 european countries so we are pushing more rapidly than a certain number of our partners to have a more autonomy plan of action and this was voted as the french the newly french commissioner. would push on that to have more autonomous will boost and so lead capabilities so it's not a question of convincing our nato partners it's not a question of convincing our european partners it's a it's a matter of convincing and using with the ones who have the capability to tackle

the problems of the future in space in cyber security in the cyber. arena to tackle in areas where there is ongoing interest of course the northern see the baltic area and of course we have to say and we have to think of your asia when france is thinking of russia it is also as united states thinking of china and when the narrative is very clear it was really assessed and really confirm during the speech that the french president made in front of the ambassador calling it a disruptive diplomacy we have to make everything possible not. push russia into the arms of china the commercial trade between france and russia is only of 11000000000 of euros yeah and you well if i can make it if i could jump in here russia manual i mean this time it's over the last year or so you know it in the new

york times editorial which we embarrassed itself ok it's already happened ok there's security partnerships already happened the horses are out of the barn that train is left the station i mean that is what i've been saying people have fallen asleep at the wheel for the last 5 years it's change it's already happened john your agreement may go ahead go ahead john. i mean phrase it well all right the many want real quickly real quick or they will go to a real quick emmanuelle. i think france is understanding that it had not understood the world as it is shifting and this is a clear when the former minister says we are already late on that person or and that doesn't mean what that we don't understand the necessity to have it now ok go ahead john champion sorry yeah well i mean you're quite right the horse has bolted russia and china have massive commercial links and above all the been politically very shows in standing up to american unilateralism so the idea that the new york

times idea that so you know a few nice phone calls to moscow can turn this around is it's nonsense and all i will say is that this is also in response to your question peter about nature if this project is to succeed we all know that emanuel in my home likes to try and reconcile opposites he was he's often caricature it in france for saying all mental at this you know one thing and at the same time the other. but he to some extent he's managed in for example in his other initiatives to russia to do this to reconcile offices he went to the petersburg economic forum in 28 where france was the guest of honor for. which of course like every e.u. country has sanctions against russia he said that france was russia's most reliable economic partner in the euro skippable of reconciling our offices and i think the key to success of this initiative must again lie in its realism you're not going to

get rid of nato russia knows that you're not going to get rid of the anti russian d.n.a. of either nato all the. but you might be able to make progress as i say on one or 2 precise issues big ones for precise issues such as for instance the you could have forces treaty or possibly things connected with libya on those issues it might be possible to sign step otherwise and on course we're going to go to look look i'm going to give you the last 30 seconds on the program what is public opinion in france about macross initiative visa v russia now i'm i'm not asking about the yellow bass i'm talking about russia go ahead 30 seconds to you. but i think for many people it would be a good point i mean france is one of the few countries within nato that paste 2 percent requested by trump and by promises made by all the countries germany

doesn't so the voice of france is heard and the french like the idea of the french and the other europeans too they like the idea that michael takes initiatives on the international front which the germans don't do and boris johnson is stupidity with bricks it to do anything so i think it's the moment for me to show my call to to make a point there and to win points and to speak to russia as the preferred intellectual to the preferred person to speak for europe i think it would work and if on the other side of that and take president trump also goes in that direction as was said in the american press i think we could have all the planning well i and i would i really have a better relation i really wish the best for president mccrone but he's no de gaulle that's all the time we have gentlemen many thanks to my guests in paris alexander and in brussels and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at the see you next time and remember.

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