i'm from a pro independence party and our ideas that we can have a better country and better welfare for all people with a cow to learn republic so that's what we're pursuing and regarding how many people support that you have all kinds of polls some of them where a majority and some of those perhaps not but that's exactly why we want to vote we want to know the real numbers we want to know who's supporting in the pens and who does not and there's no way the kingdom of spain can agree on such a referendum like the u.k. did it for scotland or for so we don't think we're better than any other nation but we're not less than any other nation but the e.u. know that the problem with referenda and i think the bracks of station shows that the independents moment it's called. that as well is that people may change their mind the circumstances may change. are you sure that if you have internationally

a recognised referendum and if the majority of catalan say no to independence is that going to put the issue to wrath once and for all. not for me or people like me but we will have a result and we will accept it obviously. the same thing if there is a yes we expect the spanish authorities and the international community especially the spanish government to do what they didn't do on october the 1st 2017 when such a vote was held and they did exactly the opposite was it which is put people in jail my predecessors in the catalan government we saw columb and police troops being sent to hit people in their heads and we seen almost 2 years of preventive chill for people who organized the vote can i ask you specifically about that our friend because. from what i understand neither the current code. on authorities nor

the spain authorities consider it illegal or free and fair for you it wasn't free and fair because of the police presence for them it was illegal as far as the results are concerned and i think over 90 percent of people who came to the polls they supported the independence cost as far as the results are concerned do you consider them legitimate or it isn't more like a legacy or every torkel issue for you it was an enormous wonderful feat bringing millions of people to the polls enabling them to vote despite police disruption and brutality and it's something the people of catalonia cheesed and the government which was in place then helped the people to do to vote freely for the future that's the way we think things should be done perhaps we didn't have the strength to fulfill the mandate of the people and that's why we need international complicity and support to convince the government of spain the this is the sensible

a reasonable way of doing things the democratic way because the use of force is not helping people in catalonia we believe that the majority of people but it's not a majority let's test it and let's find out the people in catalonia want to vote and that's a certainty for 80 percent according to most polls want to vote for the future and want to vote on independence such an issue has to be delivered to the people and democracy is the rule of the people for the people and with the people so that's the way we think it should be done now the leaders of the along independence moment who oversaw that referendum as you mentioned and now awaiting their sentencing by the spanish supreme court and. they are given political situation in spain over all that. jail terms may provoke and there outburst of violence. they're police and i thought of police cautious on the streets do you

share this concern and we will discourage any aggressiveness and that's what we've been doing for more than 7 years now this is a peaceful movement it's a civic movement and it's a movement which is fighting for human rights and for a democratic outcome because that's the only way out the use of force and we've only seen that on the side of the powers of the state in spain. police troops were sent by the spanish government the catalan government was suspended by the spanish government because the law in parliament was suspended by the spanish government is a spanish judiciary system that has. put people in jail kept in there for almost 2 years a preventive jail without trial and we'll see what the sentences are right now and we're very optimistic but the use of coercion on the side of the spanish. to stop

help and we believe that it is a historical mistake now what we say to the international community to people in russia europe elsewhere what we tell them is look that's not the way to solve things nowadays we believe another way the only way possible is the one that has to be agreed upon there are per person for the leaders of that referendum a drastically different depending on which legal system they fall on their former president. pushed him on to go by the german court where some of his associates are now facing up to 25 years in prison on charges of rebellion how do you explain such a drastic difference in terms of the legal treatment in europe where. legal systems are supposed to be harmonized but i think it explains itself you've got some of the members of the previous government. half of them which went into exile and there they have been. overseen by courts judges legal systems they are

all free citizens in europe whereas those who remained have been almost 2 years in preventive jail awaiting these sentences and will see what falls on their heads so clearly they are there's a european justice on one side which acts in a certain way and there's a spanish justice or injustice we think that shows very well different ways to deal with a situation which can only be met through dialogue through talks and finding this way out which has to be democratic let me ask you a personal question i'm sure many are asking themselves if you had to choose between leaving your country or staying but being behind bars what would you personally opt for as you can imagine i thought about the dozens of times and i don't know i think both both options are respectable it depends on your own

personal situation obviously if you have small children it's one thing if you don't it's different. really don't know why i don't want to go to jail but ready to face it if the time comes because it's not my situation which is important it's the condition of the freedom of our people they are entitled to decide as thomas jefferson said the world belongs to the living not to the dead not to things which happened hundreds of years ago it belongs to citizens who have full rights and are living nowadays in this place so we must deliver to the citizens so how do you take the lead. if you deliver to the citizens while being behind bars would be somewhat constrained yes but morally high. all those in jail. are saying. telling those that are telling the world that there is a. of dignity to be learned that when you serve the people you have to serve them

to the last of the consequences and that. they are their situation is less important than the goals which the these goals apply to rights the collective rights which cannot be relinquished which will not be surrendered now there are a small but their morals is really much more important than their capacity to act effectively and that's how we consider them and that's why they are our leaders still are and will continue to be. are you saying that. they have moral high ground is that a little bit higher than the situation up here former president. no it's it's also i mean somebody who is in exile is also a victim of repression and that's just a different choice isn't going to compare them and he is not facing 25. in prison

he's away from his kids and his family in general small children and it's not a desirable situation in my own party scatterable gonna we have one of the leaders the president of our party mr get us was in jail in madrid and the other one the secretary general this is the reader who is in exile in geneva now i understand both of them and they both took their decisions and when i talked to them either in jail or in exile i feel enormous admiration the same aeration for both of them i think that these people resent the deserve our respect for what they did for the courage they had and all the time when i try to think about them when i have to take decisions i think they do have moral height and that's why in moral terms i think we're way ahead of what. the powers of the state in spain are doing well minister we have to take a very short break now and i think we'll be back in just

a few moments they can't. he. that he he it is. he she. has logged on the call for the recall no calls when he does acknowledge the false so. you can slide show you have done with the bullets of the. last as there was

enough to know something. dramatic video the condition of the song sit on me she saw that on a soft spot will not keep it down at this time i don't. need to promote. confusion only wonderful committed to defeat the contin the police use of the pull the ripples pull away. but for. the present. the world is driven by a dream shaped by a person. who dares thinks. we dare to ask.

is this is a stick up from the water bottle found in the stomach of a fish the brand is spawns of the coca-cola company which sells millions of bottles of soda every day the idea was that let's tell consumers there are the bad. they're the litterbug 3rd trimester where industry should be blamed for all this waste the company has long promised to reuse the plastic. their plastic. on my end. on the best bet is the end of. the fun now the mountains of moist only grow higher .

welcome back to worlds apart bosh minister of war or an actual situation of relations and transparency of catalonia. minister speaking about your of the supporters of a to long as independents want to stay with then you are a bad one to have independence from spain what does it mean in practical terms well the difference is that we can have our own say and. we don't think country or for instance a minister in spain lying mr war a was trying to close down our delegations our voice in europe we want to be in europe we want deal in trade or in culture we want to have a free voice in our own voice in europe we think we can deal better with our problems if that's the case and that europe will listen better to our own circumstances.

also to a certain extent it's difficult to work with somebody in madrid like mr were a again minister of foreign affairs of spain who shrine to block our action who is somebody else undiplomatic as to say something like russia is our old enemy things like that. i think that else out rages other the real an wonder is you were i mean minister is common the go you can always and counter difficult personalities whether they come from your country or from the somebody else this now i'd become the representative of foreign affairs and europe exactly talking about the out now that i mean the even if your were independent he would still be in that position in if he gets his weight so yet but a who would want to be represented by somebody like that who would want to live in a place where you'll leaders are put in jail because the organized the vote so while we're saying is we want a cattle and republik because we think it would be feared to our people we think

the we would be free to take or and decisions we think of would be better for our well for air for or opportunities in europe and ellsworth that's what we think and a think it's legitimate correct me from wrong but the help from my perspective border is their weight baig this than russia for example they don't exist anymore it in the europe and could to long a has a fairly broad that tahn the me a sound would say that compare its you the governmental crisis in spain the your ability for sell through is now bigger than for many are there are parts of spain at don't chill read a half old the tools at here would you suppose their own well we obviously we think we don't we need to him we want to have more but it if would you're saying is true if there's a huge amount of self government and a borders are not of straight as they were in the past then what's a big deal what's the big deal wide not accept a new state in europe of people who are pro european want to remain in your were

not brought to tears we're remain yours and want to contribute to the wealth for of europe into the european values of democracy the of a quality of dialogue of peace and we think that we are ready to contribute on a rome to there's new europe but it's part of the you european community and constituency what's the big deal what's the problem why can't we accept that possibility in the 21st century. i'm sure you would agree that. separate from spain perhaps in your vision would be better but it would also have to recognize that spain without catalonia would not be the same country do you have any sympathy for your spanish friends and neighbors and brothers because cattelan it contributes a significant portion to the spanish g.d.p. it's a very vital region and obviously spain would lose

a lot if this get along in. are you suggesting that the kingdom of spain is dealing unfairly with catalonia that we're paying the bills for spain is a word you're suggesting i'm not suggesting that but i know that they stealing is pretty widespread here in catalonia i think many people here at least from the people we talked to yesterday they feel that the central government is taking more than it's giving to them let me say that right now the main issue is not economic there's an economic side to everything but right now the issue is of civil rights and of democracy we want to be of age we want to take our own decisions so i think it's quite reasonable to understand why we want to stand up have our own say and contribute to the welfare of europe and of the world on our own from our own side we think we're perfectly capable of and as you said we're

a prosperous place we don't have economic problems as a country with our economy which is booming right now tourism is booming and whoever has been in catalonia or in barcelona knows that this is a place of talent creativity of economic prosperity hardworking people so we think we could make an enormous contribution to europe and. diversity and minister i think there is a clear correlation that when economic times are good they support for independence tends to the window and when there is a crisis economic crisis. support for independence towns to increase. some people in a retort to your argument that one of the reasons while the lawn and get along as a whole has been made so prosperous is because of the contribution of the entire country of spain is that not the case which contribution while the budget their contribution to support for barcelona when it was preparing for the olympic games

etc i mean but i could have a very long history and there were both good and bad economic times for for the entire country we believe in solidarity and i think we've proven that the biggest demonstrations for welcoming refugees because demonstrations for international aid incorporation have taken place and parcel in our society is a caring society concerning the whole world and concerning spain as well no that's not the issue the issue is is that solidarity of free and voluntary or is it forced to what extent does help in sticking together and helping other people to what extent can that be taken and forced to another situation where you're actually being ripped off where you're not being dealt with fairly and you also have strong theories in favor of the 2nd issue but i insist this is not an economic question

and right no we have a government from the catalan parliament which came from the elections and there's a pro independence majority when there was a crisis. but soon years ago the same slight majority you're mentioning was there so things are not that different in times of crisis in times of prosperity people that are supporting him have been well it's been fluctuating to be fair let's vote for this because what's the problem about voting well i think the problem from the point of view of both madrid and brussels is that if. they do you course as you see it is pursued here it may inspire other independents or secessionist moments are nationalist moments as across europe do you have any concerns about that because obviously the cuttle on this year is a very old one but there are more recent coffees would you like to see europe pursuing that nationalist secessionists path more actively and then it's now look

they voted freely for independent scotland the result was no they did in quebec the result was no now what's the result when you say to people that they cannot vote and that whatever they vote it won't be recognised it actually helps you in increasing your numbers now since this whole process started and the spanish government and the spanish war nicky and spanish power has been saying constantly no you're not free to decide you're not free to vote what has happened the numbers have been increasing the last 15 years we've increased from roughly 10 percent of pro independents population to half of that population 50 percent but obviously there's been a very sharp increase in support for independents and white in part and only important in part that's also because of repression because people are not allowed to decide what happens when you tell a teenager no you can't be free you can't go out tonight you can't engage in sex

you can't do anything freely the teenager will probably feel a desire to do things freely all which is prohibited there is not a lot of people to a teenager at comparing the attitude of the spanish government to a parent who doesn't realize that young people turn of age and then they have their rights to be free to decide upon their selves and to emancipate now is somebody is dealing with a whole community or a country like catalonia as if it were underage and not allowed to. to do whatever it seems fit in a reasonable peaceful democratic way if you don't allow that you're dealing with this population of citizens and obviously we don't like that a few months ago you sounded cautiously optimistic about the government the federal . who favor it. with

a towel on authorities do you think that opportunity has been for we explore it by both sides it has been fully explored by mr sanchez and his government despite the fact as you mention that if it hadn't been for them for the pro independence parties he would never have become prime minister so there we assisted in changing mr roy horn and we hope that the mr science it will be different but now we see people still in jail almost to use them preventive jail without trial accused of organizing a referendum in charge and the judiciary right will the the state attorney and the public prosecutor have very close connections to the government in fact the general attorney is named by the spanish government and the specific prosecutor designed by the government is under the orders of the spanish government

and they have required a request the very heavy sentences which i hope are not brutal let me also ask you about another controversy surrounding the european parliament in which the electoral board at the spanish electoral board for bade a number of. local representatives from taking their seats at the european parliament i think we are talking about 3 individuals do you take that as a legal or a political issue. well the european parliament is a body of political representation so there's no other way you can take that let me say also that this proves that the catalan issue and the conflict in spain is not a purely local for it's not an internal affair of spain it's in the european parliament and they're in the european parliament they're dealing with something as substantial as finding out whether the european parliament the sovereign and can

accept those any piece of those members of the european parliament which have been of which have been voted in this case for instance by more than 2000000 people now as a dozen member states like spain have the right of veto to say who goes to the european parliament and who doesn't go there i think that's wrong but it's there on the table of the european parliament it's an united nations it's a national parliaments it's in the international media it's all over the place this is an international issue. let's face it pro-choice and on what do you think you are a human tain that it's political but my understanding is that the court and especially the supreme court has to follow the law which would have meant that those representatives including mr pritchett mana would have to appear in person before the central electoral committee and take the pledge of allegiance on this banished constitution which explicitly bans regional referendums now he went against that

doesn't well i mean. that's a i'm sorry he's got no no there was a provision and spend his lot of bending referendums like you mentioned that was a raised 2007 but clearly mr bridger on the end back in 2071 against that constitution because here preceded the referendum do you think he kept watch referendums are contemplated in the spanish constitution but isn't that the night. 78 constitution doesn't it stress the indissoluble unity of the spanish nation which i think is a code phrase for so long it so would involve having no look i'm pro in dubai in the entire country i'm pro independence of and. it's in our program i've been elected to spanish congress been elected to the city council in the cuttle in government it's not illegal because. defending in pursuing a. particular political program be it in the pens unionism be it whatever

socialism whatever that cannot be illegal now what the can say is that events or acts could be illegal but. we don't believe they did anything illegal by taking people to the to the polling stations the vote that would be outrageous but anyway the issue of the juror talking about is really very troublesome can a judge really decide whether an elected representative can go to a chamber or not know sent in the serbian ruled and the spanish courts have already said these people have not been tried cannot go to the european parliament or to the spanish congress now i think that's wholly unfair and that is something which looks very illegal to me apart from unfair well minister we have to leave it there but i really appreciate your candor thank you very much for your time you're most

welcome and courage of yours to keep this conversation going in our social media pages and hope this year again same place same time here and of all the part. join me every thursday on the alec simon show and i'll be speaking to guest of the world of politics sports business i'm showbusiness i'll see that. today there are good terrorists and bad evidence the bad terrorists and those in

yemen who the united states deems to be a threat the looked at it is those who work in syria the cia and the u.s. military were engaged in covert actions really throughout the world. where they were assassinating populist leaders they were backing up the right way military juntas funding an army of death squads there's not any more because there's always a small people for really good. profit. i. believe. i. was.

making headlines today in the u.s. continues its strong anti iran rhetoric now accusing terranova attacking saudi oil facilities despite the rebels saying they did it wrong slams the accusations as a lie. while washington stands all wrong doesn't soften even off the whole because u.s. national security advisor john bolton was fired this week by donald trump. also in the stories that shaped the week an american t.v. network sues the top presenter album of the channel describing them as paid russian propaganda we look at the track record of the m s n b c host in question when it comes to making claims about the prime.