between the russian federation and the west because of the the unique ukrainian crisis because the propaganda war that's going on between the russian federation west and the anniversary of the war particular events associate with become part of that political struggle ok let me go to you in london it is you know we have as i pointed out a few seconds ago a russia wasn't invited to these festivities in poland certainly a snub to the russians but the germans were invited it reminds me of the you know the the soviet nazi non-aggression pact ok i mean if one can draw conclusions about the morality of that but the cold political calculation you can't deny but the poles want to seem to have it just one way go ahead alex well the poles have their own interpretation of the of the model of soft control the russians there's there's also what people like jeffrey roberts to do which is that you go through

history and you decide what you you have i'm not saying polls are not entitled to their own interpretation of the modern talk ribbentrop that my own personal view is that given the situation which existed in august 19th 39 a pact between so and germany was probably something that many people in moscow would have decided maint sense to them yeah they failed to forge an alliance with the west they tried they failed to fortunately once with poland they tried a pact which limited as they would see it german expansion east would have made sense to there the problem is not that there are these divergent opinions about this event it is that in the west increasingly not talking about the historic story and talking about medium and talking. politics we are not only hearing only one

view of the maldives of ribbentrop pact each is becoming increasingly the all to dos view which everybody who wishes to be considered respectable and accepted is required increasingly to accept and that i think is dangerous thing because it distorts very badly our understanding of the events let you know not all and it also means that the last of us who were the principal country the rate its losses during that war on and on in effect been disallowed from having an opinion about its own region yes particularly demons since that was the red army that liberated poland from from nazi occupation that's why i would disagree with alex about paul there are more school remember who liberated the country and they are dismayed by the fact that cemeteries of soviet soldiers who died in poland

are being desecrated well the polish government says only removing the symbols but what is a memorial site and point you have the emblem of the soviet union or in the fortress the portrait of stardom and you have these scription 3000 soldiers buried here if you take down the sword at them but them you destroy the memory these people are no longer there symbolically and the polish government is doing it right now so there are paulson talks in that situation that are the interesting point is that. i think there are 2 black legends about president putin and his attitude to history in the west the 1st is that he invaded ukraine and you can just go watch the television in the end of 2013 in the beginning of 20145 months along who. and

putin only reacted in march when it became inevitable that the new regime it's all installed itself in ukraine but the other black legend is that putin supports the start in his narrative to and you know there are facts if putin supported that narrative would he go in 2000 down together with prime minister to the burial site of the polish officers massacred in khaki would he weighed the wrath of that would he go to vesta in 2009 when the diversity of the beginning of the war was said to break that 10 years ago he went there and put in well even though he knew he would be insulted by the hopes you know the polish president then said that poland stabbed in the back from russia in 1939 soviet union from the securing it well at the point that this ceremony in in also was not only russia was not invited even though. it droops would embrace that point also they forgot to

invite all the presidents of the central asian republics even though there were tens of thousands of those books who died in port they did not invite anyone from yugoslavia even though there was lost so many people in the or portions of it can't be compared to poor and the montenegrin. dukane which said that you know djukanovic has been very anti russian during the last few years so when he said that i'm quoting him it would be very appropriate to invite someone from russia to show the grand role that the former soviet union played in liberating europe if you hear it from someone like your kind of age that these the 2 things that i always find very interesting is that people pick one moment in time and say it's an emblematic of the rest of history moving forward but i when i think of the at the start of the 2nd world war. in september 939 i my 1st historical reference is the

atrocity committed munich ok it was the western democracies that broke up. and stayed in an. appeasement to the nazis here i mean if you're in moscow it respectively of your political coloration ok you can say hey you know here these countries france and britain and then you also also have italy but it was fascist at the time they were the ones that betrayed the international system but no it's the pact that was the great trail of the international system that people that say that my point is the story of people that don't take that into account are a historical with. the mouse i question by referring back to something that alec said when he said well the coast opposing view of the model. of the view well yes public the polls or some polls are very politicized view of the there

is russians all kinds different countries a political views of the world but it's politicized fused his politics is also historical it's historical truth and you're right the polls old i want to discuss some of the many ways analysis of it back and the red army invasion of eastern poland. and i don't want to discuss munich when poland was part of the end. of 34 non-aggression pact with germany and i want to discuss polish collaboration with. this that i want to discuss the obstruction of poland to the last negotiations between the soviet union brit come from britain from here so they want to present poland as a victim pure and simple and everyone else as being guilty in particular of course the soviet union be being guilty ok as a historian i'm committed to telling the whole story all aspects of the. even some

aspects you know i mean you know i've spent my whole life studying things from the soviet and russian you so obviously i have a certain identification with that point but i want to discuss even things that you know russians russian federation putin or whoever i'm comfortable with that includes discussing. and the collaboration between stalin hitler after the pact i mean that there's a very good case to be made for in terms of real politic for the pact itself the 23rd of august that's my position is that there's a much much much more complex argument when you consider what happened after the pattern of the intense collaboration that was between the soviet union germany and the aftermath of the nazis of it alex remain one minute before we go to the break here i mean. jeffrey makes a very good point here in a it's often tailored my point is that you just cherry pick what is self-serving in the present and this is exactly what we're seeing and how the the landing at normandy the the end of the war in berlin what day you celebrated on there it all

politically motivated 20 seconds before we go to break that alex absolutely and can i just come back to the point dimitri babich makes yes there are many people in poland with diverse opinions if you treat one interpretation of the events of august 19th $39.00 is the correct $1.00 and $1.00 you are not only distorting the development of russian and polish his relations discussion history you're also consolidates seen certain people in poland who have a particular political agenda who always want poland to be as jeffrey correctly said seen as the victim and never want to accept poland itself it agency and sometimes that actions are going to hold the whole their point we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on revisionism. stay with me.

i put themselves on a lot. to get accepted or rejected. so when you want to be president. or something i want to. have to do i would be 1st to see what the floor 3 of them or 10 people. interested always in the waters of the house. there should. thousands of american men and women choose to serve in the country's military and the decision. every song came to a complete. the day that i was raped and. you know told to shut up what they'd

kill me and i see how it destroyed my life many screamed at me and he made me come in and he grabbed my arm and he write me with his birthing curia if you take into account that women don't report because of the extreme retaliation and it's probably somewhere near about half a 1000000 women have now been sexually assaulted in the us military rape is a very very traumatizing thing tat happen but i've never seen trauma like i've seen from women who are veterans who have suffered military sexual trauma reporting rape is more likely to get the victim punished don't be offended and almost 10 year career or chose very invested in and i gave that up to report a sex offender who was not even put to justice or put on the registry this is simply an issue of tower and violence male sexual predators for the large part of target whoever is there to prey upon whether that's a man or when. they all see.

themselves as dying swans in their dreams. nightmares but only one in a 1000 will ever make it to the top. they're ready to give their lives for the chance to die on stage if only wants. to live. not even broken wings to tell them. for generations at the moment ski theater ballet sweat and tears on r.t. . if.

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lists. and a very warm welcome to you watching on since last. welcome back to crossfire who are all things considered i'm peter lavelle remind you we're discussing revisionism. ok dimma before the break you really wanted to jump in and you're such a patient man please go well i think that jeff you rightly said that there was not just the pact itself there was a ration between the soviet union and nazi germany in their end of $1000.00 such a night and it is not forgotten here there was a decision by the soviet parliament the so-called congress of people would step in 1008 $109.00 which condemned the secret protocols to the pact and which basically

asked the soviet union was still the soviet union but all the wars of the soviet union which do not contradict the laws of the russian federation are considered to be the go here you know so that legal norm is still all parable put in did not cancel it and if you look at his policies and if you look at their official statements from russia they're all none of them justified the secret protocols well the other problem is that if the west wants to refute the pact completely then the onus should be returned to poor want us real no basically it was taken by marshall ski in the 20th in an aggressive act started you know there are no more humans to start in russia except in the museums or parks there are more humans to go all over paul to you know he's considered a hero so if we return to the situation before the pact then we should the game

change the borders in eastern europe and these people you know who criticize russia for for you know seemingly justifying that pact they don't want to do. right so they should be consequential the other interesting moment that i think is important you know basically we are forced to defend ourselves because despite our russian desire to say goodbye to the past and to ask for forgiveness and be forgiven the west coast of the reminds us of all we deal and presses you know that bottom there. for example even said that it's a spanish newspaper just yesterday you know this article if the pact which is responsible for tens of millions of deaths so it's not he to it's the pack that is responsible if that bag has been culled the 2 days there were would be divided

between 2 parts so would have separate junk up here what would happen i don't like subjunctive history but since that junk to play is used against us then i will use my subjective if hitler invaded it not just for what you know i'm told that future soviet border if he invaded the whole poland up to means up to kiev you know what would happen to the jews who had been living there for the same very good point if you could it would be all the drama that is right there do you have been one of can say if you want to go back to the situation before the 2nd world war then western ukraine should be handed over to poland. to ok you can condemn the masses of it but it did result in the united belorussia and the united ukraine you know ethnically united. also had the effect of actually creating

a fairly ethnically. potent post yes. if you want you'll be able to get around it which is just cherry picking here so alex i want to change gears a little bit here i mean we still have in 2009 the polls arguing about the past. pointing fingers at russia but unfortunately they have passed upper or avoided or ignored historical precedent of reconciliation i mean i mean a lot of people that are watching this program that are keenly interested in history know the history the acrimonious relationship that france and germany had prior to the 2nd world war that reconciliation is a model for the poles and the russians to emulate but there is but for it to be emulated you have to have both parties only one party doesn't want to do it the other one does go ahead alex we're all in this is exactly the point to understand about this is that poland actually is a country that is no longer threatened by russia i mean those quarrels over

territory over borders the e-mail was talking about they've got poland by the way was called up and it very substantially territory in the west where she's now of course you know from germany nobody suggesting that but it is going to look somewhat that poland however is very much in russia's neighborhood it is playing in my opinion and extremely reckless again by supporting people in ukraine which is an area which brings it in confrontation with russia he's talking continuously about russia some sort of the 1st 3 when as i said russia is not in any conceivable sense and in verse 3 and the effect of this is that he's creating tension both between poland and russia and between russia and the rest of europe because of course poland is a part of europe now if we can move beyond this and the french and german parallel

is i think a valid then we can start to get towards a peaceful situation in eastern europe like the one we have in west europe where wars no longer are really conceivable one would rent out pick. just there's no reason there's no reason in principle why the anniversary of the war should be a divisive story in principle you defy the bursar your starting point for that unity is that it was hitler's will hitler or the nazis nazi nazi germany wasn't stalin he wasn't mostly soviet back wasn't even the british and french appeasers or you know the pre-war polish government it was hitler it was hitler's will and that's that's what everyone can unite around he is being anti fashion and then it's going on merkel's presence there actually confirms that ideally the sins of the past. 10 years ago when you had to 70 about a story there was

a similar ceremony in poland was that what others are not cheap made some very critical remarks about the nazi it but of course the political situation has changed since 2001 of the year but you have a different polish government and you have a different a different a different context you know the war should be. a focus for unity across europe not a matter of division it's a matter of division because of political choices made by political leaders in different countries you know i think the fact that the war now is division and not unite and it was something about our times because even in the sixty's and the seventy's that situation was very different and the polish president. has interviewed. you know that german newspaper when asked about reconciliation with germany he said. basically german and polish priests back in the

60 s. issued that slogan we are forgiven and we're asking for forgiveness remember when he was asked if you can use the same formula with russia he said no wait until the russians recognize their aggression. in september 1939 and you know russians are emotional people just like course when we see and then just sometimes the backlash is so strong that with some circles in russia yes it was almost justifying the pact but this is not the government it is they're part of the public opinion that is like that and it's a backlash to what we have been seen in walsall for example on the 1st of september who were invited them arrogance the germans the british people who had no role in liberate in poland in 194945 at least known direct role and also i think it's very

important to notice that when steinmeier the german president and do the visit it's very little you know this is a polish town destroyed by the german planes in the beginning of the war do the said that these play should be remembered as a get out that spain although i do assure ground that's france as lead it said that's i think the czech republic now well what about starting out and then grant who suffered more i mean these were medians people starve to death in leningrad there were hundreds of thousands of people killed by the error rate in studying the german. and polish president is not even as a mention in the military assault on the civilian population you're learning i'm saying this just to explain why some people in russia have such bitter feelings that they go all the way to saying that broadly a probably we should not have cared about the policy in the 1st place you know in the middle back in london you know

every time geoffrey robertson i speak here in moscow eventually the issue of the world war television series the big made of the 1970 s. it's very interesting i think it's the best documentary series ever made ever and but it couldn't be made. today because of the politics of toxic politics that we have of today what you could in the 1970 s. i think it says a lot about how people use history as a political weapon go ahead oh absolutely i mean the situation in historical research and scholarship here has deteriorated at least not perhaps in story research but the way in which it has been communicated to the public it's really politicians so the media we have moved away from a situation where people are being informed to where they're probably gaddaar east which is extremely dangerous and extremely bad and he wants those shows aren't

think of fundament. in generations because it was in the 1970 s. when that series was made most of the people who were involved in that series of who in the war were. fought in the war all they had a direct standing and feeling for the wall and even in the worst of the cold war that was the sense that the soviet union and the west walked alongside each other against this terrible evil now that is dissolved being. seen stead what you call revisionism which is actually in this context eighty's information about start the 2nd will will is increasingly gaining. i would be pessimistic because as i mean there is this reason is because there is this propagandized view of the war but i don't think you should confuse you know the vehemence with which propagate by the politicians and subsection of the media with this if exceptions by

the public on the an improper i think there's a lot of pushback pushback about it that all of common sense about the war itself you know that the historical memory of the grand alliance and the soviet union's role in the war and that moment of unity. i don't think that's been completely. so because so many of the other wars the west has fought has been so murky and unclear and the goals seem to be more propaganda but that was a war that you have to eat can easily come out and i think we should perhaps give people a bit more credit to be a little more safe. politics on that note there gentlemen would run out of time many thanks to my guests here in moscow and in london thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t.c. unix time and remember.

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is a tense situation in venezuela is still all over the news the problem in venezuela is not that socialism has been poorly implemented but that socialism has been only . implement inside venezuela things move different we're going to announce sanctions against petroleum to venezuela associate. famously have a son of the woman who flew to move them person that sort of data discern the truth the magic of the moment the focus of the who story isn't new nixon called in henry kissinger to tell him that it would not be tolerated that in latin america. terms of economic and social system could take hold and therefore the policy would be to make the chilean economy scream so wants and making the economy of

venezuela scream. seemed wrong but old quote just don't call. me you won't believe forget to say proud disdain to come to advocate and indeed from an equal betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart. choose to look for common ground. i. believe i.

i. it's here monday morning moscow time headlining right now although prices spiking following those attacks on saudi oil refineries but the u.s. pointed the finger of blame with only about. in the headlines says india clamps down on kashmir a problem separatist leader awaits trial in a decades old murder case. magine any human being locked up and cage fight by 7. and california poses a controversial bill that could require universities to provide students with abortion pills. college had a number of health not the answer here are we going to say to a woman you know what you have.