cross knocking revisionism i'm joined by my guess jeffery robards he is america's professor of history at university college cork as well as member of the royal irish academy and his latest book is churchill in stalin we also how dimitri bobbitt she's a political analyst and editor interest me internet media project and in london we cross al going to be curious he is a writer on legal affairs as well as editor in chief of the duran dot com aren't gentle in cross talk rules an effect that means you can jump in anytime you want in i always appreciate jeffrey let me go to you 1st your sin through visiting moscow and you are in a steam to story and of the 2nd world war in of the soviet union why is it contested to beginnings of the the 2nd world war because all the most a time it's about the outcome of this 2nd world war but we had this best of it is in warsaw the russians were not invited the germans were why is that still controversial well did you idea front of us for the the toys

a koso massive lead pull him out of us right you know sect wild will 5060000000 people died the reshaped completely the 20th century well was still living been a consequences and shout to of such mobile so you know if it is one of the most important of all historical and averse it it's political civil so always bade it's always be political it's always been a matter of not just historical contestation about watch you happen to or is responsible but you know political blind been light now these particular controversial at the present moment the i.q. front of a strip of course because world what's going on in in relations between rick the russian federation on the west because of the d. unique ukrainian crusts this because the propaganda war just going on between the russian federation west and yet the anniversary at the war particular events associate to it i've become part of that political struggle ok alex i me go into you in london it and say you know we have no as i pointed out a few seconds ago a russia wasn't invited to these the festivities in poland certainly

a snub to the russians but the germans were invited it reminds me of the you know the the soviet nazi non-aggression pact ok i mean if one can draw conclusions about the morality of that but the cold political calculation you can't deny but the poles want to seem to have it just one way go ahead alex well the poles have their own interpretation of the hit of them all of soft ribbentrop the russians have theirs there's also what people like jeffrey roberts to do which is that you go through history and you decide what you you have i'm not saying polls are not entitled to their own interpretation of the modern talk ribbentrop that my own personal view is that given the situation which existed in aug 19th 39 a pact between the soviet union and germany was probably something that many

people in moscow would have decided made sense to them yeah they fail to forge an alliance with the west they tried the it failed to fortune the lines with poland they tried a pact which limited as they would seen it german expansion eastward would have made sense of there the problem is not that there are these divergent opinions about this event it is that in the west increasingly not talking about the historic story i'm talking about media and talking about politics. we are not only hearing only one view of the maldives of ribbentrop pact each is becoming increasingly the all to dos view which everybody who wishes to be considered respectable and accepted is required increasingly to accept and that i think is dangerous thing

because it distorts very badly our understanding of the events let you know not all and it also means that the last of us who were the principle country then suffered the rate of losses during that war on and on in fact the disallowed from having an opinion about its own region yes particularly demons since that was the red army that liberated poland from from nazi occupation that's why i want to slightly disagree with alex about paul there are more school remember who liberated the country and they are dismayed by the fact that cemeteries of soviet soldiers who died in poland are being desecrated well the polish government says only removing the symbols but what is a memorial site and point you will have the emblem of the soviet union or in the fortress the portrait of stardom and you have the scription 3000 soldiers buried

here if you take down the saw it then but i'm you destroy the memory these people are no longer there symbolically and the polish government is doing it right now so there are paulson talks in that situation that are the interesting point is that. i think there are 2 black legends about president putin and his attitude to history in the west the 1st is that he invaded ukraine and you can just go watch the television in the end of 2013 in the beginning of 20145 months long cool and put in only reacted. in march when it became inevitable that the new regime it's all installed itself in ukraine but the other black legend is that putin supports the start in his narrative to and you know there are facts if putin supported that narrative would he go in 2000 down together with prime minister to the burial site or the. offices massacred in khaki would he

way the wrath of that would he go to vest in 2009 when the diversity of the beginning of the war was said to break that 10 years ago he went there and put in well even though he knew he would be insulted by the hopes you know the polish president then said that poland stabbed in the back from russia in 1939 soviet union from the security and well at the point that this ceremony in in also was not only russia was not invited even though. it drops when you break that point also they forgot to invite all the presidents of the central asian republics even though there were tens of thousands of vets who died in port they did not invite anyone from yugoslavia even though there was lost so many people going only or portions of it can be compared to poor and the montenegrin. dukane

which said that you know djukanovic has been very anti russian during the last few years so when he said that i'm quoting him it would be very appropriate to invite someone from russia to show the grand role that the former soviet union played in liberating europe if you hear it from someone like your kind of age that these the 2 things that i always find very interesting is that people pick one moment in time and say it's emblematic of the rest of history moving forward but i mean when i think of the at the start of the 2nd world war and sublimer 939. my 1st historical reference is the atrocity committed munich ok it was the western democracies that broke up. and stayed in an. appeasement to the nazis here i mean if you're in moscow it respectively of your political coloration ok you can

say hey you know here these countries france and britain and then you also also have italy but it was fascist at the time they were the ones that betrayed the international system but no it's the pact that was the great trail of the international system that people would say that my point is the story of people that don't take that into account or a historical put. them outside question by referring back to something that alec said when he said well the coast opposer in view of the model. of the view well yes public the polls or some polls are very politicized view of the there's russians different countries a political views of the world but it's politicized used as politics is also historical it's historical truth and you're right the polls old i want to discuss some of the many ways analysis of it back and the red army invasion of eastern poland. and i don't want to discuss munich when poland was

part of the end. of the 1934 non-aggression pact with germany and i want to discuss the polish collaboration with. this that i want to discuss the obstruction of poland to the last negotiations between the soviet union come from britain and from here they want to present poland as a victim pure and simple and everyone else as being guilty in particular of course the soviet union be being guilty ok but as a historian i'm committed to telling the whole story all aspects of the truth even some aspects seen. no i mean you know i've spent my whole life studying things from the soviet and russian you so obviously i have a certain identification with that point but i want to discuss even things that you know russians russian federation putin or whoever i'm comfortable with that includes discussing. it and the collaboration between

stalin hitler after the pact i mean that there's a very good case to be made for in terms of real politic for the pact itself the 21st of august that's my position is that there's a much much much more complex argument when you consider what happened after the pattern of the intense collaboration that was between the soviet union germany and the aftermath of the nazis of it alex remain one minute before we go to the break here i mean. jeffrey makes a very good point here in a it's often tailored my point is that you just cherry pick what is self-serving in the present and this is exactly what we're seeing and how the the landing at normandy the the end of the war in berlin what day you celebrated on there it all politically motivated 20 seconds before we go to break that alex absolutely and can i just come back to point dimitri babich makes yes there are many people in poland with diverse opinions if you treat one interpretation of the events of august 19th

39 is the correct one the. one you are not only distorting the development of russian and polish his relations discussion history you're also consolidates seen certain people in poland who have a particular political agenda who always want poland to be as jeffrey correctly said seen as the victim and never want to accept poland itself it agency and sometimes that actions are going to hold the hold that point we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on revisionism stay with us. what politicians do something to. put themselves on the line to get accepted or

rejected. so when you want to be president. some want to. have to go right to the press it's like i'm a 43 in the morning can't be good. i'm interested always in the waters of my house . first city hall. they all see themselves as dying swans in their dreams. but only one of the 1000 will ever make it to the till. they're ready to give their lives for the chance to die on stage if only once. not even broken wings kabuto them. for generations at the moment schizo ballet

sweat and tears. as a tense situation in venezuela is still all over the news the problem in venezuela is not that socialism has been poorly implemented but that socialism has been faithfully implement from the inside venezuela things look different we're going to announce sanctions against petroleum to venezuela sosia diamond famously have a son of the moment those who flew down to something football battle song oh yeah the cuckoo clock the path of the moment the focus of the whole story is. new nixon called in henry kissinger to tell him that it would not be tolerated in latin america an alternative economic and social system could take hold and therefore the policy would be to make. the chilean economy scream so

wants to make the economy of venezuela screed. welcome back to cross now where all things considered i'm peter lavelle remind you we're discussing revisionism. ok dimma before the break you really want to jump in and you're such a patient man please go well i think that jeff you rightly said that there was not just the pact itself there was the ration between the soviet union and nazi germany in there and of 1939 and it is not forgotten here there was a decision by the soviet parliament the so-called congress of people would step in 1989 which condemned the secret protocols to the pact and which basically.

it was still the soviet union it was still the soviet union but all the wars of the soviet union which do not contradict the laws of the russian federation are considered to be the go here you know so that legal norm is still all parable put in did not cancel it and if you look at his policies and if you look at their official statements from russia they're all none of them justified the secret protocols well the other problem is that if the west wants to refute the pact completely then the onus should be returned to poor want us real no basically it was taken by marshall ski in the 20th in an aggressive act started and you know there are no more humans to start in russia except in the museums or parks there are more limits to go all over paul you know he's considered a hero so if we return to the situation before the pact then we should the game

change the borders in eastern europe. and these people you know who criticize russia. for you know seemingly justifying that act they don't want to do it i hope so they should be consequential the other interesting moment that i think is important you know basically we are forced to defend ourselves because despite our russian desire to say goodbye to the past and to ask for forgiveness and be forgiven the west coast and he reminds us all of our guilt and presses you know that bottom there. for example even said that it's a spanish newspaper just yesterday you know this article if the pact which is responsible for tens of millions of deaths so it's not he to it's the pack that is responsible if that bag has been culled the 2 days continued to would be divided between 2

parts so we have separate junk up here what would happen i don't like subjunctive history but since the junk tip is used against us then i will use my subjective if hitler invaded not just poland you know i'm told that future soviet border if he invaded the whole poland up to means up to kiev you know what would happen to the jews who had been living there for the same very good point if you could it would be all that german to try to or do you have been one of to say if you want to go back to the situation before the 2nd world war then western ukraine should be handed over to poland. to ok you can condemn the masses of it but it did result in the united belorussia and then the united ukraine you know ethnically united. also had the effect of actually create a fairly ethnically. potent post yes. if

you want if you'll be. again right it was is just cherry picking here so alex i want to change gears a little bit here i mean we still have in 2019 the polls arguing about the past and pointing fingers at russia but unfortunately they have passed up or or avoided or ignored historical precedent of reconciliation i mean a lot of people that are watching this program that are keenly interested in history know the history the acrimonious relationship that france and germany had prior to the 2nd world war that reconciliation is a model for the poles and the russians to him you're late but there is but for it to be emulated you have to have both parties only one party doesn't want to do it the other one does go ahead alex we're all in this is exactly the point to understand about this is that poland actually is a country that is no longer threatened by russia i mean those quarrels over

territory over borders the email was talking about they've got poetry in the west where she's now of course you know from germany nobody suggesting that but it is going to look at that poland however is very much in russia's neighborhood it is playing in my opinion an extremely reckless game by supporting people when you crane which is an area which brings its own confrontation with russia he's talking continuously about russia big and some sort of the 1st 3 when as i said russia is not in any conceivable sense and adversity and the effect of this is that he's creating tension both between poland and russia and between russia and the rest of europe because of course poland is a part of europe now if we can move beyond this and the french and german peril though is i think a valid then we can start to get towards

a peaceful situation in eastern europe like the one we have in west. where wars no longer really. woman. because. there's no reason there's no reason in principle why the anniversary of the war should be a divisive story in principle if you defy the bursar your starting point for that unity is that it was hitler's will hitler or the nazis nazi nazi germany was a star it wasn't nazi soviet pact wasn't even the british and french appeasers or you know the pre-war polish government it was hitler it was hitler's will and that's what everyone can unite around he is being anti. and then turning on merkel's presence there actually confirms that. the sins of the past. 10 years ago when you had to 75 out of 3 there was a similar ceremony in poland was that what others are not cheap made some very

critical remarks about the nazi it. the political situation has changed since 2001 of the year but you have a different polish government and you have a different a different a different context you know the war should be. a focus for unity across europe not a matter of division it's a merit division because of political choices made by political leaders in different countries you know i think the fact that war now is division and not uniting it was something about our times because even in the sixty's and the seventy's that situation was very different and the polish president. he has interviewed. you know that german newspaper when asked about reconciliation with germany he said. basically german and polish priests back in the 60 s. issued that slogan we are forgiven and we're asking for forgiveness remember when

he was asked if you can use the same formula with russia he. said no way i'm to you of the russians recognize their aggression in september 1939 and you know russians are emotional people just like course when we see and then just sometimes the backlash is so strong that with some circles in russia yes it was almost justifying the pact but this is not the government it is their part of the public opinion that is like that and it's a backlash to what we have been seen in walsall for example on the 1st of september who were invited them arrogance the germans the british people who had no role in liberate in poland in 1904945 at least no direct role and also i think it's very important to notice that when steinmeier the german president and do the visit it's

very little you know this is a polish town destroyed by the german planes in the beginning of the war do the said that these play should be remembered as a get out that spain although i do assure ground that's france as lead it said that's i think the czech republic now well what about starting out and then grant who suffered more i mean these were medians people starve to death in leningrad there were hundreds of thousands of people killed by the error rate in studying the german. and the polish president is not even going to mention the military assault on the civilian population you're learning i'm saying this just to explain why some people in russia have such bitter feelings that they go all the way to saying that broadly probably we should not have cared about the policy in the 1st place you know let me go back in london you every time geoffrey robertson i speak in moscow eventually the issue of the world war television series the big media the

1970 s. it's very interesting i think it's. the best documentary series ever made ever and but it couldn't be made today because of the politics of toxic politics that we have of today what you could in the 1970 s. i think it says a lot about how people use history as a political weapon go ahead oh absolutely i mean the situation in historical research and scholarship here has deteriorated at least not perhaps in story research but the way in which it has been communicated to the public it's really politicians so the media we have moved away from a situation where people are being informed to where they're probably gaddaar east which is extremely dangerous and extremely bad and he wants those shows aren't think of fundament. in generations because it was in the 1970 s.

when that series was made most of the people who were involved in that series support in the war were. fought in the war all they had a direct standing and feeling for the wall and even in the worst of the cold war that was the sense that the soviet union and the west walked alongside each other against this terrible evil now that is dissolved being. seen stead what you call revisionism which is actually in this context eighty's information campaign about to start the 2nd ball will is increasingly gaining. i would be pessimistic because as i mean there is reason as he calls it there is this propagandized view of the war but i don't think it should confuse you know the vehemence with which propagate by the politicians and subsection of the media with this if exceptions by the public and he an improper i think there's

a lot of pushback pushback about it that all of common sense about the war itself i think you know that the historical memory of. and the soviet union's role in the war and that moment of unity. i don't think that's that's come completely because so many of them so because so many of the other wars the west is fought has been so murky and unclear and the goals seem to be more propaganda but that was a war that you have to eat can easily come out and i think we should perhaps give people a bit more credit to be able to the people more to see for this propaganda politics on that note there gentlemen we've run out of time many thanks to my guests here in moscow and in london thanks to our viewers for watching us here in our d.c. unix time and remember. the world is driven by.

the dares thinks. we dare to ask. that he. she. was on the call. when it is it's always you know the false. you can say you. know the rules of thumb. you know something.

dramatic video of the british open. so instead i mean she's on the small squad will not keep you down at this time but you don't. need to come. to. the police to use the police roubles for the way. the policy. but if she warned you posted by you can i do the dishes at the bottom or those jeans nudist beach and you see me we need to you. know when you guys you. can use i mean that is without infringing balls. a lot of you will see sawing during as if parts of the 2 could be chargeable for the most

called. it as it is to me as if archer. the. cabinet at 5 days doing. an english lady a people who simply knew she would include it. was. yes.

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