it's always been it's always be political it's always been a matter of not to see sturrock of contestation about what you happened to earth responsible political blind been light now is particularly controversial at the present moment the actually front of us of course because what's going on in in relations between the russian federation and the west because of the unique ukrainian crisis because the propaganda war that's going on between the russian federation west and the anniversary of the war particular events associate with become part of that political struggle ok let me go to you in london it is you know we have as i pointed out a few seconds ago russia wasn't invited to these the festivities in poland certainly a snub to the russians but the germans were invited it reminds me of the you know the the soviet nazi non-aggression pact ok i mean if one can draw conclusions about the morality of that but the cold political calculation you can't deny but the

poles want to seem to have it just one way go ahead alex well the poles have their own interpretation of the of the model of soft ribbentrop the russians there is there's also what people like jeffrey roberts do which is that you go through history and you decide what you you have i'm not saying holds a nazi titles to their own interpretation of the modern talk ribbentrop that my own personal view is that given the situation which existed in all his 939 a pact between so and germany was probably something that many people in moscow would have decided maint sense to them yeah they failed to forge an alliance with the west right they failed to fortunately once with poland they tried a pact which limited as they were. seen it german expansion eastward would have

made sense to there the problem is not that there are these divergent opinions about this event it is that in the west increasingly not talking about the historic story and talking about medium and talking about politics. we are not only hearing only one view of the maldives of ribbentrop pact each is becoming increasingly the all to dos view which everybody who wishes to be considered respectable and accepted is required increasingly to accept and that i think is dangerous thing because it distorts very badly our understanding of the events let you know not all and it also means that the last of us who were the principal country than some of the rates of losses during that war on and on in effect been disallowed from having an opinion about its own region yes particularly demons since that was the

red army that liberated poland from from nazi occupation that's why i would disagree with alex about paul there are more school remember who liberated the country and they are dismayed by the fact that cemeteries of soviet soldiers who died in poland are being desecrated well the polish government says only removing their symbols what is a memorial site and point you have the emblem of the soviet union or in the fortress the portrait of stardom and you have these scription 3000 soldiers buried here if you take down the sword at them but them you destroy the memory these people are no longer there symbolically and the polish government is doing it right now so there are paulson talks in that situation that are the interesting point is that. i think there are 2 black legends about president putin and his attitude to

history in the west the 1st is that he invaded ukraine and you can just go all watch the television in the end of 2013 in the beginning of 20145 months long cool and put in only reacted. in march when it became inevitable that the new regime it's all installed itself in ukraine but the other black legend is that putin supports the study and his narrative to and and you know there are facts if put in support of that narrative would he go in 2000 down together with prime minister to the burial site of portrush offices massacred in khaki would he way the wrath of that would he go to vesta in 2009 when the diversity of the beginning of the war was set a break that 10 years ago he went there and put in well even though he knew he would be insulted by the hopes you know the polish president then said that poland

cousin got that stabbed in the back from russia in 1939 soviet union from the security and well at the point that this ceremony in in also was not only russia was not invited even though. it droops would embrace that point also they forgot to invite all the presidents of the central asian republics even though there were tens of thousands of who died in port they did not invite anyone from yugoslavia even though there was lost so many people going in the war portions of it can't be compared to poor and the montenegrin. dukane which said that you know djukanovic has been very anti russian during the last few years so when he said that i'm quoting him it would be very appropriate to invite someone from russia to show the grand role that the former soviet union played in liberating europe if you hear it

from someone like your kind of age that these the 2 things that i always find very interesting is that people pick one moment in time and say it's an emblematic of the rest of history moving forward but i when i think of the the start of the of the 2nd world war and subjects were 939. my 1st historical reference is the atrocity committed munich ok it was the western democracies that broke up. and stayed in an. appeasement to the nazis here i mean if you're in moscow it respectively of your political coloration ok you can say hey you know here these countries france and britain and then you also also have italy but it was fascist at the time they were the ones that betrayed the international system but no it's the pact that was the great trail of the international system that's the people that say that my point is the story of

people that don't take that into account are a historical what. the mouse i question by referring back to something that alex said when he said well the coast opposing view of the model. of the view well yes public the polls or some polls are very politicized view of the there is russians all kinds different countries a political views of the world this planet so if used as politics is also historical it's historical truth and you're right the poles old i want to discuss some of the many ways analysis of it back and the red army in fighting the beast in poland. and i don't want to discuss munich when poland was part of the end. of 34 non-aggression pact with germany and i want to discuss the polish collaboration with in the 19th that i want to discuss the obstruction of poland to the last negotiations between the soviet union come from

britain and from here they want to present poland as a victim pure and simple and everyone else as being guilty in particular of course the soviet union be being guilty ok but as a historian i'm committed to telling the whole story all aspects of the truth even some aspects see. no i mean you know i've spent my whole life studying things from the soviet and russian you so obviously i have a certain identification with that point but i want to discuss even things that you know russians russian federation putin or whoever i'm comfortable with that includes discussing. and the collaboration between stalin hitler after the pact i mean that there's a very good case to be made for in terms of real politic for the pact itself the 23rd of august that's my position is that there's a much much much more complex argument when you consider what happened after the pattern of the intense collaboration that was between the soviet union germany and the aftermath of the nazis of it our extreme in one minute before we go to the

break here i mean. jeffrey makes a very good point here in a it's often tailored my point is that you just cherry pick what is self-serving in the present and this is exactly what we're seeing and how the the landing at normandy the the end of the war in berlin where you were day you celebrated on this it all politically motivated 20 seconds before we go to break absolutely and can i just come back to point dimitri babich makes yes there are many people in poland with diverse opinions if you treat one interpretation of the events of august 19th $39.00 is the correct $1.00 and $1.00 you are not only distorting the development of russian and polish his relations discussion history you're also consolidates. certain people in poland who have a particular political agenda who always want poland to be as jeffrey correctly

said seen as the victim and never want to poland itself that agency and sometimes that actions are going to hold that hold that point we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on revisionism stay with. you know world big partisan movies a lot and conspiracy it's time to wake up to dig deeper to hit the stories that made stream media refuses to tell more than ever we need to be smarter we need to stop slamming the door on the bath and shouting past each other it's time for critical thinking it's time to fight for the middle for the truth the time is now

for watching closely watching the hawks. they all see themselves as dying swans in their dreams. but only one in the cells and will ever make it to the till. they're ready to give their lives for the chance to die on stage if only once. not even broken wings can deter them. for generations at the madrid ski theatre ballet sweat and tears.

thousands of american men and women choose to serve in the country's military a decision that has shattered lives every function until a complete. am afraid i'll be instructed. you know told to shut up but they'd kill me and i see how destroyed my life. he screamed at me and he made me come in and he grabbed my arm and he write me. if you take into account that women don't report because of the extreme retaliation and it's probably somewhere near about half a 1000000 women have now been sexually assaulted in the us military is a very very traumatizing tat happen but i've never seen trauma like i've seen women who are veterans who suffered military sexual trauma reporting rape is more likely to get the victim punished and be offended and almost 10 year career or chose very invested in and i gave. the founder who was not even put on the registry this is simply an hour in violence male sexual predators for the large part of target

whoever is there to prey upon whether that's men or women. the tense situation in venezuela is still all over the news the problem in venezuela is not that socialism has been poorly implemented but that socialism has been faithfully implement from the inside venezuela things are different we're going to announce sanctions against petroleum to venezuela so soon. famously have a supplement. that outputs that critical data to sue on the patent. the moment that the hose story isn't new makes him cold in henry kissinger to tell him that it would not be tolerated in latin america. terms of economic and social system could take hold and therefore the policy would be to make the chilean economy scream so once in the making of the of

venezuela screed. welcome back to crossfire who are all things considered i'm peter lavelle remind you we're discussing revisionism. ok dimma before the break you really want to jump in and you're such a patient man please go well i think that jeff you rightly said that there was not just the pact itself there was the ration between the soviet union and nazi germany in there and of $1000.00 such a night and it is not forgotten here there was a decision by the soviet parliament the so-called congress of people would step in 1008 $109.00 which condemned the secret protocols to the pact and which basically asked the soviet union was still the soviet union but all the wars of the soviet

union which do not contradict the laws of the russian federation are considered to be legal here you know so their legal norm is still all parable putin did not cancel it and if you look at his policies and if you look at their official statements from russia they're all none of them justified the secret protocols well the other problem is that if the west wants to refute the pact completely then the onus should be returned to poor want us to be all know basically it was taken by marshall ski in the 20th in an aggressive act started you know there are no more humans to start in russia except in the museums or parks there are more humans to go all over paul you know he's considered a hero so if we return to the situation before the pact then we should again change the borders in eastern europe and these people you know who criticize russia for

for you know seemingly justifying that fact they don't want to do. right so they should be consequential the other interesting moment that i think is important you know basically we are forced to defend ourselves because despite our russian desire to say goodbye to the past and to ask for forgiveness and be forgiven the west coast and the reminds us of our guilt and presses you know that bottom there. for example even said that it's a spanish newspaper just yesterday you know this article if the pact which is responsible for tens of millions of deaths so it's not it's the pack that is responsible if that has been called the 2 days could you know that we would be divided between 2 parts so we have separate junk up here what would happen i don't

like subjunctive history but since the junk tip is used against us then i will use my subjective if hitler invaded it not just for went you know i'm told that future soviet border if he invaded the whole poland up to means up to kiev you know what would happen to the jews who had been living there for the same very good point if you will that would be all the drama that is right there going to have been one of the say if you want to go back to the situation before the 2nd world war then western ukraine should be handed over to poland. to ok you can condemn the masses of it but it did result in the united belorussia and then the united ukraine. ethnically united. also had the effect of actually creating a fairly clear the. polish polish yes. if you want if you'll be able to get round it was is just cherry picking here so alex i want to

change gears a little bit here i mean we still have in 2009 the polls arguing about the past. pointing fingers at russia but unfortunately they have passed upper or avoided or ignored historical precedent of reconciliation i mean i mean a lot of people that are watching this program that are keenly interested in history know the history the acrimonious relationship that france and germany had prior to the 2nd world war that reconciliation is a model for the poles and the russians to emulate but there is but for it to be emulated you have to have both parties only one party doesn't want to do it the other one does go ahead alex we're all this is exactly the point you understand about this is that poland actually is a country that is no longer threatened by russia i mean those who are rules over territory over borders the e-mail was talking about they've got poland by the way

was called up and searched it very substantially by territory in the west where she's now of course you know from germany nobody suggesting that but it is going to look at that poland however is very much in russia's neighborhood it is playing in my opinion and extremely reckless by supporting people in ukraine which is an area which could be going to some sort of the 1st 3 when as i said russia is not in any conceivable sense and in verse 3 and the effect of this is that it's creating tension both between poland and russia and between russia and the rest of europe because of course poland is a part of europe now if we can move beyond this and the french and german parallel is i think a valid then we can start to get towards a peaceful situation in eastern europe like the one we have in west europe where

wars no longer are really conceivable between what would bring about a car coming to there's no reason there's no reason in principle. the anniversary of the war should be a divisive story in principle if you defy the bursar you are the starting point for that unity is that it was headless will hitler or the nazis nazi nazi germany was a star and it wasn't mostly soviet back wasn't even the british and french appeasers or you know the pre-war polish government it was hitler it was hitler's will and that's what everyone can unite around he is being anti. and then turning on merkel's presence there actually confirms that. the sins of the past. 10 years ago when you had to 75 out of 3 there was a similar ceremony in poland was that that was at this hour and made some very critical remarks about the nazi at the masses but of course the political situation

has changed in 2001 of the year but you have a different polish government and you have a different a different a different context you know the war should be. a focus for unity across europe not a matter of division it's a matter of division because of political choices made by political leaders in different countries you know i think the fact that the war now is division and not united and it was something about our times because even in the sixty's and the seventy's that you change about very different and the president. has interviewed. you know that german newspaper when asked about reconciliation with germany he said . basically german and polish i thought it priests back in the 60 s. issued that slogan we are forgiven and we're asking for forgiveness remember when he was asked if you can use the same formula with russia he said no wait until the

russians recognize their aggression in september 1939 and you know russians are emotional. people just like course when we see and then just sometimes the backlash is so strong that with some circles in russia yes it was almost justifying the pact but it's not the government it is their part of the public opinion that is like that and it's a backlash to what we have been seeing in warsaw for example on the 1st of september who were invited there marathons the germans the british people who had no role in liberate in poland in 1904945 at least no direct role and also i think it's very important to notice that when steinmeier the german president and do the visit that very little you know this is a polish town destroyed by the german planes in the beginning of the war do the set

that these place should be remembered as a get out that spain although i do assure ground that's france as lead it said that's i think the czech republic now well what about starting out and then grant who suffered more i mean these were median so people starve to death in leningrad there were hundreds of thousands of people killed by the error rate in studying the german. and polish president is not even as a mention in the military assault on the civilian population here landing i'm saying this just to explain why some people in russia have such bitter feelings that they go all the way to saying that broadly a probably we should not have cared about the policy in the 1st place you know let me go back in london. every time geoffrey robertson and i speak here in moscow eventually the issue of the world war a television series the big media the 1970 s. it's very interesting i think it's the best documentary series ever made ever and

but it couldn't be made today because of the politics of toxic politics that we have of today would. you could in the 1970 s. i think it says a lot about how people use history as a political weapon go ahead oh absolutely i mean the situation in historical research and scholarship here has deteriorated at least not perhaps in story research but the in the way in which it has been communicated to the public it's really politicians search and so the media we have moved away from a situation where people are being informants to where their propaganda or waste which is extremely dangerous and extremely bad and you don't want those shows aren't think of fundament. in generations because it was in the 1970 s. when that series was made most of the people who were involved in that series

support in the war were. fought in the war all they had a direct standing and feeling for the wall and even in the worst of the cold war that was the sense that the soviet union and the west walked alongside each other against terrible evil now that is dissolved being. seen stead what you call revisionism which is actually in this context eighty's information can start the 2nd will will is increasingly gaining hold. i would be pessimistic as. there is this reason is because there is this propagandized view of the war but i don't think you should confuse you know the vehemence with which propagate by the politicians and subsets of the media with this if acceptance by the public on the an improper really i think there's a lot of pushback pushback about it that all of common sense about the war itself you know the historical memory of the grand alliance and the soviet union's role in

the war and that moment of unity in the 1940 s. i don't think that's that's compelling completely because somebody who saw it because. so many of the other wars the west has fought has been so murky and unclear and the goals seem to be more propaganda but that was a war that the you have to eat can easily come out and i think we should give people a bit more credit to be able to see a little more to say for this oh this there's this propaganda politics on that note there gentlemen we've run out of time many thanks to my guests here in moscow and in london thanks to our viewers for watching us here are d.c. unix time and remember cross topples. same wrong. wall just don't all. get to shape

out just days after. and in again because the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground. when lawmakers manufacture consent to public wealth. when the ruling classes protect themselves. with the famous merry go round. the one percent. doing all middle of the room sick.

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